More opinions wanted! AK preflop

Tipperarymike

hi lads,

Long time lurker here but just wanted to hear what anyone had to say on this. Just played a tournament tonight, blinds 500/1000 I am utg get ak. So I put in a 3000 reraise, I have about 18k or so in chips. Button reraises, big blind moves all in about 16k or so now at this point I have been playing tight agressive, but not sure the muppets at my table recognise this. So first off I think of calling but the button opens his mouth and goes all in too. Now this is just my third live tournament, so I am trying to at least play in a proper fashion. I think for a few mins which at these tournaments seems to drive fellas mad and considering the button is gone all in too I start to think what am I up against. First off I reckon I am up against at least one ace if not two. So far so good, if thats the case then i have them dominated but surely with such all ins, giving them too much credit I know, one must have either queens or kings if they havent got a ace with a good kicker. So I fold reluctantly, they turn over their cards. Fking button has ace seven ,yeah sorry its soooted as Nicky would say so thats ok, other fking clown has q 2. Nothing hits and I miss a good chance to treble up, of course the clowns then berate me for the ak fold. Any opinions on that would be great , I suppose I gave them too much credit but is it ever good to fold that preflop?

Not much read on either guys, both seemed to like soooted and aces but one guy had made the same move earlier with K J and the other had tried it with aces five or six hands before? All critiscim ( sp ) welcome

Ste05

I think the fold here is OK, without a read on these guys and this All-In call out of turn, generally at least one of these guys will have KK or AA, therefore this call, long term, against players that know, at least roughly, what they're doing, will be -EV.

You've shown real strength with this UTG raise, neither player was put off and happily commited all their chips, so you have to give at least one of them credit for AA or KK, I think you played this hand fine....

Tipperarymike

I was thinking along those lines myself, though after the hand I was pissed with myself for possibly having outsmarted myself. This particular tournament seems so hard to get a read, so maybe so proper logically thinking needs to be adjusted for these situations. God only knows. Following hand was even nicer, got j 10 on the big blind, and its checked around so I see a cheap flop, which comes down 8 j 10 rainbow. Small blind checks to me, and the a 7 from the previous hand raises 2000 so I reraise 8k and he sticks me all in. So only hand really worrying me here is q 7 considering the lack of strength preflop from anyone, i dont think he has that or that he has an over pair so i decide to see the bet. Card are flipped up, with him saying " i suppose you have a pocket pair' what the fk difference that makes on that board I dont know but thats another point, he has 8 2, turn an eight so thats trips and me going out the door. Though he did have the good grace to say " I knew my eights were good". I bit my tongue and left, go figure!

Ste05 wrote:

I think the fold here is OK, without a read on these guys and this All-In call out of turn, generally at least one of these guys will have KK or AA, therefore this call, long term, against players that know, at least roughly, what they're doing, will be -EV.

You've shown real strength with this UTG raise, neither player was put off and happily commited all their chips, so you have to give at least one of them credit for AA or KK, I think you played this hand fine....

Ste05

Tipperarymike wrote:

Though he did have the good grace to say " I knew my eights were good". I bit my tongue and left, go figure!

Ouch...... :mad: you did well to bite you're tongue there, on that board you'd at least expect to be outdrawn to a straight when the 9 in his hand hits a Q or 7 on the river.... but that is just brutal..... Straight off to the Bad Beat thread with you, the least that hand deserves....

Tipperarymike

Does the bad beat or venting do any good:D. I suppose all you can do is get your money in while ahead. Dont think I was tilting on that hand , it as so hard at the table to limp with marginal hands that I decided to stick with the tight aggression , which seeing as I am home early didnt work so well! At the table any raise was disregarded , well mostly mine, lots of over the tops , but when I tried to explain that to reraise you had to double the initial raise ,that didnt go down well, so you can guess the general standard. But god almighty I had to ask your man what did he put me on, and of course he didnt think about anything I had more that he was delighted to have hit bottom button and was going to stick them in on that basis. So in the long run, its guys like him that put money in our pockets hopefully! Though how long the long run is , has yet to be determined I think:D

jem

was this the thurles tourney by anychance? if so any idea of how many players etc was tempted to take a run over from roscrea but too busy this time of year and from previous treads they have raped the pot.

Tipperarymike

From what I could see there was anything up to 220+ players. Counted up to 26 or so table at nine a table so I guess they made a nice touch out of it. Thats my second one of those to have played, I wasnt really too pushed on going but a mate of mine was so we gave it a shot. Havent got much or anything to compare it to, but would agree with a lot of what has been said about it one here, I got the boot second level after the freezout began, think I was the only one at my table not to buy back , though did take the top up as my mate was well up to about 40k in chips, starting at 4k , at the break. I only had about 16k or so at the break. But then his flush was busted by a higher flush , him and another hit their flushes on the flop his seven high other guy queen high. It didnt start till after six or so, not sure why , I got there at ten past six thinking we were late but it didnt start for another twenty mins or so.

As for the pot I dont know what the standard rate is for buy backs or top ups per head of players. I guess being conservative you would imagine on average everyone buys back and tops up, both those cost 25e and buy in 50 + 5 I think, either way it would seem a fairly profitable exercise for that nights work. Blinds were twenty mins ,fifteen mins after the freezeout so not sure its conducive to any style or method other than the Gus Hansen type of play. How is your thinking of running the Roscrea one going , myself and two other lads are thinking of trying it out if it works out for you ?

jem

we will definatly run it again in late jan /earl;y feb. in aid of scouts.went well last time and we are up front about how much going into pot etc. we take nothing for ourselves except exp which we intend to cover with the redg fee and sponsorship. 75% into pot 25% to scouts of all the €20's buyins, rebuys and topups, no messing.
I will let you know when its on
james

The Troll

This is a definite fold. AK isn't a hand when you've 2 or 3 people pushing. You should be prepared to see at least 1 person with KK or AA and also an AQ/AJ/KQs. I'd fold this in an instant.

califano

Tipperarymike wrote:

of course the clowns then berate me for the ak fold.

No need to tell them you folded AK, youre only leaving yourself open to annoying/berrating comments.

Tipperarymike

though I was so scalded with myself that I folded that I just answered without thinking. That being said I hate when you get asked what did you have, I mean if someone wants to see them let them pay and if not then why bother, mostly the ones asking what you had wouldnt even remember that info for later hands

RoundTower

How long had you been playing at the table? You have 18 big blinds, the blinds are probably going up very fast so you will have 6 rounds of the table left in about 10 minutes. If I was playing a cowboy pub tournament in the midlands I'd expect to be ahead here, unless I'd seen evidence to the contrary. I would call.

If you weren't sure, it shouldn't have taken you more than two rounds of the table to see how these players were playing.

It looks like the button is committed to the pot anyway so it doesn't matter a whole lot that he declared all in out of turn. (How many reraising hands is he going to pass for another 8000 or so?).

Special prize for the first person to reply with "AK plays better heads up".

Tipperarymike

it wasnt so much that I didnt expect to be ahead but more that if I was a marginal dog that I was in trouble as I couldnt really see that either guys didnt have one or two of the remaining cards I need to hit. Now, of course you could say that in that case I would have them dominated but if one had ace x and the other had kings which I thought was a probable rather than q 2 o, which he had. If there was going to be a sizeable side pot then I had no problem calling with the ak but when the big blind and I were the same and were covered by the button I felt I was on a hiding to nothing. But I take your point and with hindsight your logic would have trebled me up, on such things tournaments hinge I guess

NickyOD

Yeah Mike folding AK is grand there because its likely someone has a pair and that your outs aren't live. Also you were still in reasonable shape. An alternative play I might make with that size of stack might have been to limp UTG with AK and jam behind anyone who raises behind you which would enable you to show a lot more strength, however its likely if you limped so would everyone else. For some reason when idiots like Mr. A7 and Q2 see a raise in front of them they get seduced by the size of the pot and decide to gamble for it.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Yeah Mike folding AK is grand there because its likely someone has a pair and that your outs aren't live.

Are you afraid of being up against something like 99 and AT? You definitely shouldn't be.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Are you afraid of being up against something like 99 and AT? You definitely shouldn't be.

Well in a normal game I'd be be thnking the hands would be more likely to be JJ and AQ in which case I have no interest in getting my chips in when I'm only going to win the pot a 3rd of the time. If I'm getting the pot odds against donkeys I'm folding for certain but against a table of good players where microedges are critical obviuosly if I have the pot odds I'm calling but those odds don't include the times I walk my AK into KK/AA which will be often in a raise, reraise, rereraise situation.

Tipperarymike

agreed on the limping thing Nicky. Most guys seem to do what is either done before them so if a small raise comes in then thats what they see rather than to represent the value their hand should dictate.

Looking back roundtower I havent got a bloody clue what I was afraid of, just really felt all my outs were not live and the risk of going broke was not worth it, when I had a better shot with a made hand later on esp considering these kind of guys focus on their own hands rather than anything else

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Well in a normal game I'd be be thnking the hands would be more likely to be JJ and AQ in which case I have no interest in getting my chips in when I'm only going to win the pot a 3rd of the time. If I'm getting the pot odds against donkeys I'm folding for certain but against a table of good players where microedges are critical obviuosly if I have the pot odds I'm calling but those odds don't include the times I walk my AK into KK/AA which will be often in a raise, reraise, rereraise situation.

Against JJ and AQ you have to call. It's not a "micro-edge". You should only fold if you think there is an excellent chance at least one player has AA or KK. If there is just a normal chance, you will be just as likely to run into two underpairs or two weak aces, and you will have a big overlay.

Of course you will be out of the tournament most of the time after this hand. But you are going to be out of the tournament soon anyway most of the time.

Tipperarymike

most of the time I am going to be out anyway pretty soon but I did think, incorrectly, that one had aces or kings, christ they were ready to rip the table to get the chips in the middle. I guess my version of tight agresssive ,just wasnt tight agressive enough in the situation. Of course you are never going to win any tournament without getting lucky or catching up when you are behind at some stage but to stay alive I thought was was the most prudent option , but what has prudence to do with poker