Riots in France.

Karl Hungus

Hmm... Seems this is the second thread I've started about riots on the Humanities board. I don't want to start being the daily riot report here, but I'm actually very suprised that now with the riots going on for 10 days so far, nobody has yet posted a thread about it here. You'd think something like this would be a very important issue, so what gives?

Anywho, for those who are unaware (unlikely) of the situation, here's a link to the BBC Article:

Cities across France have been clearing up the ashes from the 10th - and most violent - night of rioting in mostly African and Arab communities.

Rioters burnt nearly 1,300 cars and more than 300 arrests were made in cities nationwide, from Nice on the Cote d'Azur to Strasbourg on the Rhine.

President Jacques Chirac has called security talks at the presidential palace in Paris.

Now, I was watching Sky News there, and one French Politician, can't remember his name, but he claimed that the riots were "Entertainment for the videogame generation" which pretty much had me equally shocked and angry. I don't think a more blatant and frankly, quite retarded, scapegoat could've been brought up. I would have thought that the French government have been twiddling their thumbs doing nothing for the whole 10 days this has been going on that somebody in the government just might have come up with an excuse that was a little more grounded in reality. But alas, when all else fails, blame the videogames. :rolleyes:

One elderly shop owner, who was sweeping up the ruins of his burnt-out shop remarked that the only answer is to call in the Army, and I'd tend to agree, because it's practically a war going on there, with policing having uncovered a petrol bomb factory somewhere in the suburbs!

Zombrex

Karl Hungus wrote:

You'd think something like this would be a very important issue, so what gives?

Well it is more of a news/current affairs thing and they tend to go into Politics, and there is a discussion about that going on there at the moment.

Karl Hungus

Wicknight wrote:

Well it is more of a news/current affairs thing and they tend to go into Politics, and there is a discussion about that going on there at the moment.

Ah, I don't visit politics much. Perhaps we can look at the issue from a humanities viewpoint, rather than a political one so?

lazydaisy

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now, I was watching Sky News there, and one French Politician, can't remember his name, but he claimed that the riots were "Entertainment for the videogame generation" which pretty much had me equally shocked and angry.

I didnt see the news programme you refer to but is it possible what the French politician said was taken out of context? Perhaps he meant that people arent taking it seriously enough and that the media are making it look like a videogame rather than a real human tragedy and conflict? Maybe they are getting different footage in France?

Its too hard to judge the French authorities without actually being there. We are only seeing what the media decide to present to us. If the French government call in the army, that may be read as looking like a civil war, using the military against your own people, and an even greater challenge to the riotors, a laying down of the gauntlet, so to speak?

Karl Hungus

lazydaisy wrote:

I didnt see the news programme you refer to but is it possible what the French politician said was taken out of context? Perhaps he meant that people arent taking it seriously enough and that the media are making it look like a videogame rather than a real human tragedy and conflict? Maybe they are getting different footage in France?

No, it was definetly in reference to how the rioting youths are acting. I'm unfortunately at a bit of a loss, having nothing to link. That said, you do have an interesting take on it, but I don't see how "Videogame generation" could be taken as anything other than a reference to the large number of youths rioting. If it was a case of criticizing the media, I don't see how the politician in question could really single out younger generations.

lazydaisy wrote:

Its too hard to judge the French authorities without actually being there. We are only seeing what the media decide to present to us. If the French government call in the army, that may be read as looking like a civil war, using the military against your own people, and an even greater challenge to the riotors, a laying down of the gauntlet, so to speak?

I don't think so. This is a bunch of gangs with petrol bombs, and I'd say that if they had anything more destructive, firearms and serious explosives for example, I'd imagine that they would've come into play already. Even if they did take it as a challenge, I doubt they'd prove anything but easy target practice for an organized military force. That said, I'd scarcely think it would come to that at all, because lets face it, the kind of people that make up gangs are certianly tough in numbers, and they're certainly tough when they're burning some old man's shop, but do you think they'd act so tough with a few hundred men armed assault rifles on the streets? I'd bet they would scamper home and **** themselves.

fly_agaric

Karl Hungus wrote:

This is a bunch of gangs with petrol bombs, and I'd say that if they had anything more destructive, firearms and serious explosives for example, I'd imagine that they would've come into play already. Even if they did take it as a challenge, I doubt they'd prove anything but easy target practice for an organized military force. That said, I'd scarcely think it would come to that at all, because lets face it, the kind of people that make up gangs are certianly tough in numbers, and they're certainly tough when they're burning some old man's shop, but do you think they'd act so tough with a few hundred men armed assault rifles on the streets? I'd bet they would scamper home and **** themselves.

The French authorities seem to be running scared at dealing with this though. If it was as easy as you suggest to stamp it out with a show of force, why haven't they thrown the hammer down by now? The non-rioting people living in these areas must be getting fairly cheesed off (as well as dreading each night) at this point.
There is something very strange going on here.

Karl Hungus

fly_agaric wrote:

If it was as easy as you suggest to stamp it out with a show of force, why haven't they thrown the hammer down by now?

Because the government is innefectual? They're a bunch of dunces who wouldn't know how to deal with a situation, even if that situation was running out of milk in the cafeteria. How about they're "the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" as mentioned in the other thread? Gross incompetance?

Seriously, never underestimate the sheer blinding stupidity of a governing body. Look at the pleb we have running the show for example, what do you think he'd do is there was mass rioting all over Ireland?

fly_agaric

Karl Hungus wrote:

Because the government is innefectual? They're a bunch of dunces who wouldn't know how to deal with a situation, even if that situation was running out of milk in the cafeteria. How about they're "the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" as mentioned in the other thread? Gross incompetance?

Seriously, never underestimate the sheer blinding stupidity of a governing body. Look at the pleb we have running the show for example, what do you think he'd do is there was mass rioting all over Ireland?

That's a fair point. Although, IMO the government would be fairly quick to have the gardai and the army lock the place down if there were such riots in Ireland. Things wouldn't be allowed to deteriorate as far as they seem to be in France. I just wonder if I'm missing something. Is the government scared of a full-scale insurgency developing in France if they are too harsh in putting the rioters down? Could things be that bad or am I being crazy?

lazydaisy

It does sound like he was commenting on them having nothing to do and being influenced by video games. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it is most certainly reductive. It immediately reminded me of the left wing american press comments on the left wing tv media's coverage of the first time the US wanted to oust Saddham. They said similar things... it looks like a video game... Operation Atari Storm etc etc....

It seems the French police are at a loss as to what to do and how to stop it. What are their options? Tear gas? Do they arrest these guys and just throw them in prison without trial or charge? In practical terms how to they get this under control? It has spread to Toulouse. Maybe they just want to let it run its course? Lets face it, the the first person here to be hit by police is going to set it to its next level. I'm not defending their inability to gain control, but I am trying to tease out how they are going to do it withour making it worse.

Does anyone think this was planned? Are we on the 10th day?

What is the beloved UN doing about it?

I bet they are already changing the name at the top of the government letterhead to Le Pen.

I wouldnt be so confident about the Guards there fly - algeric, they can't handle a busy Friday night in Dublin. Lol.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

I wouldnt be so confident about the Guards there fly - algeric, they can't handle a busy Friday night in Dublin. Lol.

I did mention the army too!

lazydaisy wrote:

Does anyone think this was planned?

If it was spontaneous at first - it certainly is well-orchestrated now. Whatever - it needs to be stomped on now (in my opinion). The longer they leave it go on, the worse it will be for everyone.

mike65

As I posted in the Politics thread on this subject, I think the authorities just thought this would blow itself out without effecting them or thier 'class'. After all ghettoised immigrants can happily smash up thier own suburbs can't they? Now its spead wider and a head of steam had built up so its going to be harder to deal with without causing an inflamation.

The best that can be hoped for is that there will be a natural lull (drama being shaped like a W) and some calming actions can be brought to bear. The underlining issues though are with France for the next X years.

Mike.

bonkey

Can anyone give me an idea of the scale of this?

See, I'm looking at these riots, and thinking about the almost-annual sectarian-rooted riots we saw in Belfast for years. Given the relative sizes of Belfast and Paris, I'm wondering whether or not all the criticism about not getting things under control is entirely fair.

Was violence allowed to continue in Belfast (f'r example) because the authorities didn't care? Or because it didn't afrfect the rich? Or because the authorities decided that the worst thing they could do was come down too hard too quickly.

Is Paris significantly worse than what we've seen on this island, taking into consideration that the population of Paris is around 2.5 million for the city alone, and more like 13 million if we include the suburbs (Ile de France)???

(Please note: this is not a rhetorical question)

jc

fly_agaric

bonkey wrote:

Can anyone give me an idea of the scale of this?

I can of course only go on what the meeja tell us:
Some links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07210772.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414684.stm

Several hundred cars burned each night for the past few nights. The number increases each night.

Rioting in 4 Paris suburbs: Aulnay-sous-Bois, Clichy-Sous-Bois, Raincy, Grigny.

Some trouble in a further 7 French cities according to the handy little map on that BBC page. Don't know how bad that is.

Shotgun fired at police last night.

Woman doused in petrol and set on fire two nights ago when she couldn't get off a bus targetted by the frustrated yoofs:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1498386.htm

Man beaten to death last night.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L0740816.htm

Carpet warehouse burned.
Car showroom burned.
School burned
Gym Burned
2 x "nurseries" burned.
Bus fleet burned at a Paris depot: as I heard the French Ambassador (I think it was - or it could have been some other talking head) referring to the arson attacks on cars, on Morning Ireland this morning, "they are burning symbols of affluence!":rolleyes:

Some population stats for suburbs in Paris:
http://splaf.free.fr/depurb.php?depnum=93
http://www.linternaute.com/ville/ville/donnee/3817/grigny.shtml

Aulnay-Sous-Bois ~ 80k, Clichy-Sous-Bois ~ 28k, Raincy 13k, Grigny 25k, - 1999 figures.
The entire Seine-Saint-Denis district (where most of the trouble is) has 1.3 million.

bonkey wrote:

See, I'm looking at these riots, and thinking about the almost-annual sectarian-rooted riots we saw in Belfast for years. Given the relative sizes of Belfast and Paris, I'm wondering whether or not all the criticism about not getting things under control is entirely fair.

I think it is fair criticism. Just my opinion though.

bonkey wrote:

Was violence allowed to continue in Belfast (f'r example) because the authorities didn't care? Or because it didn't afrfect the rich? Or because the authorities decided that the worst thing they could do was come down too hard too quickly.

Was it allowed to continue? Didn't the police usually fire many plastic bullets to disperse the rioters? As it happens, it was usualy in the poorer parts of Belfast also, wasn't it.

bonkey wrote:

Is Paris significantly worse than what we've seen on this island, taking into consideration that the population of Paris is around 2.5 million for the city alone, and more like 13 million if we include the suburbs (Ile de France)???

(Please note: this is not a rhetorical question)

It is hard to say - but doesn't the scaling also apply to the necessary response needed to subdue the rioting? I mean, I think of another extended riot involving many people in a big city. AFAICR they had to call in the national guard to stop the Rodney King riots in LA in the end, so I don't think bringing in curfews and using the military to impose them would be excessive force.

OfflerCrocGod

Damn I hate being banned from politics, I knew they would be talking about this there. Well as far as I can see the French made this situation for themselves they are racist, xenophobic and communist add all those together and you get yourself a revolution every couple of decades. It's up to them to break the cycle.

Dades

I'm off to Paris for three nights on Thursday.
I'll bring back a report from on the ground...

Great timing (Booked months ago). :rolleyes:

Catsmokinpot

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anywho, for those who are unaware (unlikely) of the situation, here's a link to the BBC Article:

aint got tele anymore, just spotted this, jebus whats goin on? been reading the bbc news article but cant understand why this all kicked off?? anyone care to enlighten me?

SpAcEd OuT

I think police tasered 2 youths to death?

fly_agaric

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

I think police tasered 2 youths to death?

Eh...no.

"Teenagers Zyed Benna and Bouna Traore are electrocuted after climbing into an electrical sub-station in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, in what locals say was an attempt to hide from police. (Not a good hiding place really) The police deny this, but news of their deaths triggers riots in the area which is home to large African and Arab communities. Arsonists destroy 15 vehicles."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4413964.stm

Good an excuse as any for some riots. They seem to be calming down a bit. Perhaps all those arrests and the curfews are starting to make an impact.
Maybe they'll get it under control without having to use the army.