Irish Government's U-turn on Aid disgraceful

lkelly

The past week as heard a chorus of condemnation from individuals, politicians and NGOs of the Irish government's decision to renege on our commitment to Overseas Aid.

In 2000, Ireland promised to reach a UN target of giving 0.7% of national wealth in aid to developing countries, by 2007. This announcement was met with international praise.

Now it seems that the government is about to break that promise, which will not only damage Ireland's international reputation but also lets down the very people that Aid is supposed to help - the poor and vulnerable.

If you disagree with this u-turn now is the time to make yourself heard! Budget Day is next Wednesday, December 1st. Please join Trocaire in voicing your opposition to this. Simply log on to http://www.KeepOurWord.org.

Your support is needed urgently!
Lara Kelly, Trocaire

Sleepy

While admirable I still feel aid is completely the wrong way to help the third world. We need to focus more on abolishing the medieval trade tariffs that, no matter how much aid we send to the developing world, will keep them impoverished.


edit/ letter sent nonetheless

DadaKopf

Sure, if the formula is right, and developing countries can protect their own economies to a point. But you have to ask would the social impact would be on highly aid dependent countries in Sub-Saharan Africa if the aid was cut.

chill

lkelly wrote:

If you disagree with this u-turn now is the time to make yourself heard! Budget Day is next Wednesday, December 1st. Please join Trocaire in voicing your opposition to this. Simply log on to http://www.KeepOurWord.org.
Your support is needed urgently!
Lara Kelly, Trocaire

It is a good decision in my opinion. The vast majority of this aid is wasted and achieves nothing.

If we care about the third world or third world poverty then we should work to promote free trade and globalisation. What those people need is a better economy and a market in which to sell their produce.
We should also abandon our sham neutrality and work for democracy in those countries, which will do far more for their people's welfare than handouts.

Sparks

chill wrote:

It is a good decision in my opinion.

It's a good decision to go against promises explicitly made both verbally and in writing, both to NGOs and all around the world, by the Government; at a time when our economy can support it; promises which would save lives, and also do our good name no ill either?

Chill, your idea of a good decision leaves a lot to be desired, morally and ethically.

DadaKopf

chill wrote:

It is a good decision in my opinion. The vast majority of this aid is wasted and achieves nothing.

If we care about the third world or third world poverty then we should work to promote free trade and globalisation. What those people need is a better economy and a market in which to sell their produce.
We should also abandon our sham neutrality and work for democracy in those countries, which will do far more for their people's welfare than handouts.

'We' already do work for democracy in 'those countries'. Or, rather, Ireland's aid progamme helps people in developing countries to work for democracy themselves.

Anyway, Chill, have you any statistics to back up your claim that "the vast majority of this aid is wasted and achieves nothing"?

chill

DadaKopf wrote:

'We' already do work for democracy in 'those countries'. Or, rather, Ireland's aid progamme helps people in developing countries to work for democracy themselves.

I would love to know what aid goes to this end... can you refer me to any ?

Anyway, Chill, have you any statistics to back up your claim that "the vast majority of this aid is wasted and achieves nothing"?

Nope. I believe in principle that aid achieves nothing except short term temporary relief.

bonkey

DadaKopf wrote:

Anyway, Chill, have you any statistics to back up your claim that "the vast majority of this aid is wasted and achieves nothing"?

I doubt it. I would imagine that this is another case where Chill is offering an opinion, whilst showing once more that he feels the rule about presenting opinion as fact doesn't apply to him.

Nuttzz

Slighty OT. I read in a local dublin paper (the local news) a letter from the Alliance for Animal Rights slaming http://www.bothar.org/ who provide thrid world aid as it was cruel to the animals, she felt that all aid should be in the form of vegan foodstuffs, I kid you not.

DadaKopf

chill wrote:

I would love to know what aid goes to this end... can you refer me to any ?


Nope. I believe in principle that aid achieves nothing except short term temporary relief.

Sure, Chill. You can check out any of DCI's Country Strategy Documents, this year's Annual Report, and a study of DCI's Human Rights and Democratisation Scheme.

They'll have all the info and stats you need .

chill

DadaKopf wrote:

Sure, Chill. You can check out any of DCI's Country Strategy Documents, this year's Annual Report, and a study of DCI's Human Rights and Democratisation Scheme.

They'll have all the info and stats you need .

Nothing there whatsoever to back up your claims. As I expected. No aid went to help people who are not in democratic countries achieve democracy. Of course if there is any such evidence I would be delighted for you to provide a reference - instead of the blanket nonsense above.

And perhaps Bonkey can back up his support for this kind of non existent 'evidence' himself instead of sniping. Any monkey can post a URL, providing actual 'evidence' is something completely different.

My points stand ... we should cut back on this wasted Aid program and join with other countries in promoting Democracy for people in these godforesaken countries instead of clapping ourselves on the back for the shalow temporary relief we offer.

shotamoose

chill wrote:

We should also abandon our sham neutrality and work for democracy in those countries.

DadaKopf wrote:

'We' already do work for democracy in 'those countries'. Or, rather, Ireland's aid progamme helps people in developing countries to work for democracy themselves.

chill wrote:

I would love to know what aid goes to this end... can you refer me to any ?

DadaKopf wrote:

Sure, Chill. You can check out any of DCI's Country Strategy Documents, this year's Annual Report, and a study of DCI's Human Rights and Democratisation Scheme.

They'll have all the info and stats you need .

From that study of DCI's Human Rights and Democratisation Scheme.
In 1997, Ireland Aid (IA) established a Human Rights and Democratisation (HRD) scheme in order to assist projects outside IA’s programme countries. Its broad objective is to assist the development of democratic processes and institutions and the promotion and protection of human rights ... The budget for the HRD scheme is €2.82 m for 2002 ... Based on its findings it is
the overall assessment of the review team that IA’s HRD scheme is successful

chill wrote:

Nothing there whatsoever to back up your claims. As I expected.

Draw your own conclusions, folks.

chill wrote:

Any monkey can post a URL, providing actual 'evidence' is something completely different.

Especially when someone refuses to read or understand the 'evidence'. Any monkey would probably do a better job of arguing your position too.

DadaKopf

we should ... join with other countries in promoting Democracy for people in these godforesaken countries instead of clapping ourselves on the back for the shalow temporary relief we offer

We do. Ireland co-operates with other state aid agencies in developing countries to promote democracy. DCI meets regularly to co-ordinate those activities and harmonise practises at OECD/DAC forums in the North and in regional DAC and other forums in developing countries. DCI also co-operates with the EU, funds UNDP programmes, and supports World Bank initiatives to promote democracy, good governance and the rule of law. DCI supports development partnerships NGOs and civil society organisations in developing countries that advocate for democracy, human rights, gender equality and all that kind of stuff.

Nothing there whatsoever to back up your claims. As I expected. No aid went to help people who are not in democratic countries achieve democracy.

Oh I see, you're proposing we start invading countries that hate freedom. Great way to promote human rights, dude.

bonkey

chill wrote:

And perhaps Bonkey can back up his support for this kind of non existent 'evidence' himself instead of sniping.

Its very simple. He was asked for, and supplied, linkage to something he believes backs up his conclusions. You can accept or refute his sources, but the point is that he has made a case for what his stance is based on.

You, however, continue to offer empty words backed by absolutely nothing.

My points stand

If you believe that offering no evidence to support them, and arguing against any evidence offered by saying "nope...nothing there", or "nope...thats just wrong" equates to "standing"....then sure they do.

jc

the_syco

chill wrote:

Any monkey can post a URL, providing actual 'evidence' is something completely different.

Its an ONLINE forum. How else can we link "actual evidence"? Seleotape the stuff to the screen ? Grow up, and read the links.

chill

shotamoose wrote:

Draw your own conclusions, folks.

Especially when someone refuses to read or understand the 'evidence'. Any monkey would probably do a better job of arguing your position too.

On the contrary I read ALL of the material you lazily posted. I say lazily because your references were so general.

I found no mention of ANY aid or work by the Irish government promoting the democratisation of ANY country in the world.

From that study of DCI's Human Rights and Democratisation Scheme.
In 1997, Ireland Aid (IA) established a Human Rights and Democratisation (HRD) scheme in order to assist projects outside IA’s programme countries. Its broad objective is to assist the development of democratic processes and institutions and the promotion and protection of human rights ... The budget for the HRD scheme is €2.82 m for 2002 ... Based on its findings it is
the overall assessment of the review team that IA’s HRD scheme is successful

Your own quotation from one of these documents proves my point. ALL of the aid that is delivered under this project goes to established democracies as aid to help them establish institutions and infrasture.

ZERO aid goes to help democratisation of countries or people's that have none in the first place which was the original point. Personally I would be delighted to find out otherwise.

I invite any other contributor to point out any evidence to the contrary and hence to assess the fact that referencing opinions to vast amounts of material online is of no value except to comfort the poster.

Opinons and argument, made in a contructive and persuasive way are a thousand times more worthy than posts that make no attempt to argue or persuade except to include references to newspapers or other dubious material online. A URL does not an argument make.

chill

the_syco wrote:

Its an ONLINE forum. How else can we link "actual evidence"? Seleotape the stuff to the screen ? Grow up, and read the links.

I'll ignore the irony of the 'grow up' line..... for your own sake.

There is a world of difference betwee referencing to material that is first hand information or first hand documentation relevant to a specific argument...... and referencing to some journalists newspaper writings on a subject that is purely opinion and often as biased as any contributor here.

As i posted above I have read all fo the referenced material, something that I sewriously doubt anyone else here did, and discovered that no such evidence for the argument made exists in that referenced material. So much for references. So much for your response.

I would suggest that discussions like this would be far more interesting and constructive if people put more efforts into their argument and persuasive discussion than they do referencing to irrelevant and valueless online links.

Sparks

chill wrote:

ALL of the aid that is delivered under this project goes to established democracies as aid to help them establish institutions and infrasture.
ZERO aid goes to help democratisation of countries or people's that have none in the first place

So basicly, you want to see overseas aid being used to fund regieme change.
:rolleyes:

shotamoose

Chill, not only are you still quite wrong, you've now managed to get me confused with DadaKopf. He posted the original references, which specifically addressed exactly your question; you either ignored or didn't understand what they said; I pointed this out; and your response is

chill wrote:

On the contrary I read ALL of the material you lazily posted. I say lazily because your references were so general.

They weren't general, they just gave the 'wrong' answer to your question, i.e. the one you didn't want to hear. You originally complained that instead of giving aid to these countries, we should "work for democracy in those countries". DadaKopf pointed out that we do work for democracy in those countries, so you attacked him (through me, because you're so very confused) for being 'lazy' and generalising.

I found no mention of ANY aid or work by the Irish government promoting the democratisation of ANY country in the world.

You seem to believe that a country is either a democracy or it isn't and that's all there is to it. Well, you're wrong. There's degrees of democracy, as anyone in Africa (or the USA or Ukraine or indeed Ireland) would tell you, and Ireland spends its aid trying to increase the degree of democracy (and respect for human rights) in various African countries who don't have enough (I'm simplifying here, but I think I have to given your previous posts). You seem to be suggesting that we should instead send our aid to dicatorships in the hope that they will use this money to increase democracy. This strikes me as a little naive, to put it mildly.

Victor

Nuttzz wrote:

Slighty OT. I read in a local dublin paper (the local news) a letter from the Alliance for Animal Rights slaming http://www.bothar.org/ who provide thrid world aid as it was cruel to the animals, she felt that all aid should be in the form of vegan foodstuffs, I kid you not.

Animal farming is of marginal economic or dietary benefit. Feedstuffs for animals would generally be better off fed to humans. Alternatively those feedstuffs should be replaced* with alternative crops for direct consumption.

The argument here about water also applies to feed http://www.vegsource.com/articles/pimentel_water.htm

* I realise replacement isn't always practical

Cork

Victor wrote:

Animal farming is of marginal economic or dietary benefit. Feedstuffs for animals would generally be better off fed to humans.

Law and Order is weak in many developing countries. Crops can often be stolen so there is little incentive to grow.

These countries have got to get their own act together. Yes, trade needs to be reformed.

Capt'n Midnight

Please correct me if I'm wrong "from" is not the same as "in addition to".

To me this reads like the BandAid VAT will be taken FROM existing monies so diverting Aid for current causes. Wth a €1.x bn budget surplus you have to watch every million going to development and PR.

http://foreignaffairs.gov.ie/information/display.asp?ID=1616

Government to Contribute to Band Aid Trust

Following the announcement by An Taoiseach today that the Government will make funds available to the Band Aid Trust, equivalent to the VAT receipts on the sales of the new Live Aid DVD and CDs, Conor Lenihan T.D., Minister of State for Development Cooperation and Human Rights said:

“I am delighted to confirm that the Government will be able to provide a grant to the Band Aid Trust, equivalent to the amount collected in VAT on the sales of the Live Aid DVD released earlier this week.

While it is not possible to exempt the DVD sales from VAT, an equivalent amount will be made available from the Government’s official development assistance programme, which is administered by Development Cooperation Ireland.

In the case of the earlier Live Aid recordings, a similar arrangement was put in place, and we think it is important and appropriate to do so again now.

It is wonderful to see that, so many years later, the Band Aid Trust continues to generate funds for development work. It is a testimony to the vision and hard work of those involved with the project from the beginning”, Minister Lenihan said.

+++ENDS
10th November 2004
Press Office

http://www.dci.gov.ie/about.asp - (total ODA in 2004 is likely to reach €480 million).

DadaKopf

According to the government's commitments to the UN, the national partnership agreement and to the Irish prople in the programme for government, we should be reaching €1bn by 2007 (Dóchas estimates €998m). That's not going to happen now. Analysing the Book of Estimates, Dóchas estimates we'll only reach 0.44% by then, not even 0.5%.

Sure, we're above the EU average, pretty good performers in the OECD club, but nowhere near the Nordic donors, the Netherlands, Denmark and Canada (the so-called 'Like Minded Countries'. But no matter how many times Cowen etc roar at us that the ODA budget's going up around €135m over the next three years (better than nothing), the reality is that Irish ODA has been increasing at a decreasing rate. You gotta consider what that really says about our commitment to put our money where our mouth is.

Of course, we got out seat on the UN Security Council, so I guess Bertie's commitment got him what he wanted.

fightin irish

Maybe im wrong...and am sure ill be corrected.....did Brian Cowen not say the reduction was mainly in cases where the ''aid'' was not transparent enough?

I thought it was a 'read between the lines statment'. I saw it on rte last week.

DadaKopf

fightin irish wrote:

Maybe im wrong...and am sure ill be corrected.....did Brian Cowen not say the reduction was mainly in cases where the ''aid'' was not transparent enough?

I thought it was a 'read between the lines statment'. I saw it on rte last week.

Reduction in what, exactly?

If anything, the reduction is because DCI, without taking on more full-time staff and reforming its organisational structures, wouldn't be able to handle an increased ODA budget. I'm not sure how true it really is, but an OECD/DAC peer review reckoned this was the case. Astonishingly, the government never mentioned this as a reason.

shotamoose

From today's Irish Times:

Government urged to reverse aid decision
Mark Hennessy, Political Correspondent

The Government must reverse its decision to delay reaching United Nations aid targets, a Government-controlled Oireachtas committee has declared.

In a letter to the Minister for Finance, Mr Cowen, the Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs chairman, Fianna Fáil TD Dr Michael Woods, pushed for extra Third World aid in Wednesday's Budget.

The committee has visited Irish aid projects in Zambia, Uganda, Ethiopia and South Africa.

"It is clear that in almost every project the greatest shortage is money," he said.

In particular, Dr Woods said it is "all the more important" substantial extra money is allocated to ensure that life-saving work in sub-Saharan Africa does not suffer.

The Government has dropped plans to reach the United Nations 0.7 per cent gross national product aid target by 2007, despite Taoiseach Mr Ahern's formal pledge.

Instead, it intends to add €190 million to the aid budget over the next three years - bringing the total to be spent between now and 2007 to €1.8 billion.

Despite charges from some aid agencies that Ireland will be spending 0.44 per cent of GNP on aid by 2007, Dr Woods said that the committee accepted the Government's 0.48 per cent estimate.

Privately, it is argued in some Government quarters that slower aid increases are justified because the Government's aid arm, Development Co-operation Ireland, has not yet geared up to handle bigger sums.

Disagreeing, Dr Woods, who chairs the Government-controlled Oireachtas committee, said:

"The groundwork to successfully deploy additional funding in the Irish programme has been well prepared. There is every confidence that the programme can effectively employ extra allocations."

The Government, he said, should take "the opportunity in the Budget to provide an additional allocation to ensure our ODA [Overseas Development Assistance] meets the Government's targets that have been supported by all parties in the Houses of the Oireachtas".

Development Co-operation Ireland (DCI) has invested in HIV/AIDS, education, health, water and sanitation, rural communications and governance in recent years.

"Twice in the last four years, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has praised Ireland for the quality of its investment," Dr Woods wrote.

The DCI work has shown "the urgent need" for more aid to more countries to tackle the AIDS crisis, along with funding research into vaccines and treatments.

It's odd alright that the Government chose not to give the supposed lack of capacity within DCI as a justification for the 'cut' (which was actually just a smaller increase, after all).

lkelly

I've been reading all of the comments with interest, particularly the Aid versus Trade arguments.
What I might not have made clear in my original posting is that the campaign on Overseas Aid is just one aspect of Trocaire's advocacy work. We also work on the EU, Trade Justice and Debt related issues. Anyone interested in learning more can check out http://www.trocaire.org/policyandadvocacy/policyandadvocacyintroduction.htm
In the meantime, any support for the email action on Overseas Aid would be much appreciated. Budget Day is on Wednesday and we are urging people to contact their local representatives before then, through
http:www.KeepOurWord.org

Many thanks
Lara Kelly
Campaigns Officer

mudbingo

12-12-12

Subject:: U turn Government



The U turn Government

I have an extract from "The Financial Times "-showing what a U turn wimp Government we have in Mr Noonan backing down from what he and Leo Varadaker promised -to negotiate debt,--not to subscribe to The Anglo Irish Bank-,-and to negotiate with unsecured Bond bank(BOI ) creditors.(of which it seems we are paying uscecured Bond holders over 3 billion in January).It would be great if the public -or even the banks reduced our own debts!!!
Ruairi Quinn U turns and more than insults students on his written agreement not to increase college fees.
Brendan Howlin was stopped taking about 40% ? away from some disabled allowances

---

-Grants are being removed from construction retrofitting of Insulation.

What a U turn Government
The same old Can't do storey--?Same type of Governing?

nesf

Do Not drag up threads from 7 years ago. If it's worth talking about it's worth starting a new thread!