[Article] Speed traps full of loopholes

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-426603463-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper.asp

Speed traps full of loopholes
14/11/04 00:00
By Barry O'Kelly

Gardai fondly remember the good old days of the 'ordinary decent speedster', a menace on the roads who grimly accepted his fate when caught.

Those were simpler times, when the speeding motorist found himself caught up in a paper trail from which there appeared to be no escape.

Computer glitches had not been invented, as the records system was mostly manual. It was a system largely free of loopholes, with a dedicated garda delivering the summons by hand to the errant driver, who was generally nailed in court.

This golden era of the 'law-abiding' speeding motorist ended shortly after 2002BC (before computers), when penalty points and fixed speed cameras were introduced, with what now appears to be limited forethought.

After an initial honeymoon period of four months, when road deaths plummeted, the carnage resumed with a vengeance.

The motoring public is split on the issue of compliance with the new traffic enforcement system. About 46 per cent of drivers caught for penalty point offences have managed to wriggle out of paying fines, according to the latest available figures.

"One would be a desperate fool to pay up front," said John Perry, Fine Gael TD and former chairman of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee (PAC).

Nearly 40,000 drivers failed to pay when issued with penalty point notices during the 14 months to December 31 last year. Only one in five of those drivers was subsequently summonsed to appear in court.

Gardai blamed two blunders in particular - a bug in the penalty points computer and a glitch in the camera system, which produced blurred pictures of car registration plates. These problems are being ironed out.

But the system is beset by more fundamental problems, which appear insoluble without a change in the law.

The most serious difficulty is the reluctance of the courts to accept evidence of summonses being posted to drivers.

Assistant Commissioner Pat Crummey spelled out the difficulty to the PAC two weeks ago. "The first issue arises from the difficulty in having the notices accepted in court," he said.

"A decision was made not to issue summonses until this issue was clarified. Discussions were held with the Director of Public Prosecutions, who advised that if we were not in a position to prove service of the notice, it would be as well not to issue summonses or take cases to court.

"Recently, an operational decision has been taken to enter summonses, although the issue of service of the notice has not been fully resolved."

It is believed that the legality of the summonses is in question because of a successful challenge by five motorists in the Dublin District Court.

The motorists' lawyer argued that there was a legal onus on the gardai to prove that the summons had been served.

The delivery of a summons by mail, rather than by the traditional means of a personal visit to the driver's home, was unacceptable in law, he said.

Another weakness in the legislation underpinning the penalty points system is the right of car owners to nominate another driver.

In the period to last December 31, more than 23,000 car owners caught for penalty points claimed they were not using the car at the time, and they gave the name of another driver.

The statistical probability of this - one in five drivers lending their car to another driver at any one time - is remote.

Such is the shambles of the penalty points computer network, that it was impossible to establish whether the subsequent payment of a fine was made by the car owner or the nominated driver.

The fine might not be paid at all if the nominated driver were resident abroad.

"If a driver who fears penalty points says, truly or falsely, that it was not himself in the car, but his aunt in Newry, friend home on holiday from New York or cousin from Birmingham, the guards do not proceed any further," Perry said.

Department of Justice Secretary General Seán Aylward conceded this was a problem, but one experienced in all countries with such a system.

"Human nature being what it is, people invoke that type of defence. In many cases, it is true," he said.

Aylward said the legislation had an impact in two areas.

The first related to people based or living in the North, and the other to people based outside Ireland.

"It is being pursued in the context of the British-Irish Council, which is responsible for east-west cooperation between the two governments," he said. "The European Commission is also preparing a paper on this, to see how we can address the enforcement issue right across Europe."

But anyone with a friend or relative in the US, and an inclination to do so, will blithely continue to brazen it out with the traffic law enforcers.

"No country has solved the problem where the offender or nominated driver turns out to be on another continent," said Aylward. "We have carried the risk and taken hits for some of the mistakes, but we can point to the outcome - that we have saved lives by this activity."

A further weakness in the legislation is the advantage it confers on the drivers of company cars. Official figures released to the PAC, which went unreported, reveal that the gardai are reluctant to pursue speeding cases against these drivers.

This is because the penalty points law only covers the car user. When a camera picks up the speeding driver of a company car, it actually only captures a registration plate registered to a company - an abstract concept not provided for in the legislation.

"The company does not incur penalty points, because the law relates to the user," said chief superintendent John Farrelly, who inherited the penalty points nightmare when he took over the traffic bureau last September. "There is no legislation under which penalty points can be imposed on the company concerned.

"However, there is legislation in place to deal with the failure to nominate a driver.

"We pursue companies in this way."

Asked at the PAC how many companies had been pursued, he said: "There have been 11 instances this year where we have initiated proceedings.

There have been one or two convictions. Normally it is the company secretary who is brought to court."

Up to last December 31, about 235 companies had failed to nominate a driver.

John Curran, a Fianna Fáil TD, noted that only one in 20 companies had been pursued through the courts. The temptation for many to defy the law might be irresistible.

Aylward said the law might have to be amended.

"If we find, on advice from the gardai, that the system is simply proving too unwieldy, we have agreed with our colleagues in the Department of Transport that they should be willing, in the context of forthcoming road traffic legislation - either legislative vehicles already under way or subsequent ones - to tidy up the law.

"This would make it more convenient administratively for the gardai to go after the company that is failing to identify its driver.

"At the moment, it is slightly unwieldy, since the garda has to identify the court area, and, if resourced, the investigation must get after the company, its secretary and so on. However, it will not be allowed to emerge as a significant loophole."

Julie O'Neill, a senior civil servant in the Department of Transport, said: "It is a great incentive to nominate people, if owners know they will attract the points if they do not do so. It is clearly a somewhat different issue where companies are concerned.

"We want to facilitate the gardai in any way possible to pursue the company, and we are exploring the idea of going beyond simply making the company responsible for nominating the individual driving the car.

"A named person in the company, such as the company secretary, might be assigned that responsibility specifically, making it easier for the gardai to pursue the matter to prosecution. Several other issues arise from time to time regarding the legislation.

"When they arise, we move speedily. They are not all easy to resolve, given the nature of individuals' constitutional rights here. There will always be a new angle or idea emerging."

cdebru

yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine

sliabh

cdebru wrote:

yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine

q
Can they be got then for letting their vehice be driven by someone that is not insured or something?

Nuttzz

"he was driving on his own insurance" or "I have open drive"

JP Mulvano

What a load of ****. you're caught speeding the best thing to do is pay the fine. don't be a prick, hold your hands up say fine I did it and don't f*&k around wasting the Gardai or the courts time.

Gardai waste more time coming into court because some wanker motorist contested the fine or penalty, DUH they have a picture of your car (and you in it) don't be a f&%kwit and pay up.

as for "yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine" don't be a twit they still have a picture and any judge with any sense will see straight thru this nonsense excuse and slap an even bigger fine/penalty points/custodial sentence on you than a misely 50 or 75 euro.

vinnyfitz

cdebru wrote:

yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine

This excuse should not work for most people unless they have "any driver covered" insurance policies.

I don't suppose the garda computers are smart enough to check whether these alleged "other" drivers are named on the owner's insurance policy for the days in question?

What are the penalties for allowing an uninsured driver break the speed limit in your vehicle?

I am also surprised that companies are covering up for their speeding staff. Concealing names like this should be as big a crime as a serious breach of health and safety regs. The law should be amended quickly so that the penalty points get stuck on the Boss's licence if he or she can't be bothered naming the relevant staff member.

Nuttzz

vinnyfitz wrote:

What are the penalties for allowing an uninsured driver break the speed limit in your vehicle?

They have to prove that he was driving uninsured, A friend of mine from the US (born here) drove here on his US insurance.

In any case I dont think you can be convicted or fined if someone else breaks the law

cdebru

sliabh wrote:

q
Can they be got then for letting their vehice be driven by someone that is not insured or something?

most insurance covers driving for anyone who has a full licence

cdebru

JP Mulvano wrote:

What a load of ****. you're caught speeding the best thing to do is pay the fine. don't be a prick, hold your hands up say fine I did it and don't f*&k around wasting the Gardai or the courts time.

Gardai waste more time coming into court because some wanker motorist contested the fine or penalty, DUH they have a picture of your car (and you in it) don't be a f&%kwit and pay up.

as for "yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine" don't be a twit they still have a picture and any judge with any sense will see straight thru this nonsense excuse and slap an even bigger fine/penalty points/custodial sentence on you than a misely 50 or 75 euro.

twit
**** are hiding catching people a few miles over the limit on dual carriageways and motorways


twit or not it works i know people that have done it
look at the figures in the article loads of people have copped on to this

sliabh

cdebru wrote:

most insurance covers driving for anyone who has a full licence

But in this case there may be a "gotcha" as it's a hypothetical American doing the driving.

Really in these cases the burden of proof should be on the car owner to prove that they were not driving. They should be responsible for the car unless they can prove otherwise.

Gandhi

The article only mentions speeding as allowing the "cousin from America" to be a valid excuse.

What if someone hit another car (even killed someone), and drove away, but the other driver got the number plate? Would the Judge still accept that some, conveniently far away, other driver was to blame?

I'd imagine the Judges just don't see speeding as an important crime and so couldn't be arsed going after these guys. If the same driver was up in court for running over the Judge's mother, I really doubt the "cousin from America" excuse would hold water.

cdebru

Gandhi wrote:

The article only mentions speeding as allowing the "cousin from America" to be a valid excuse.

What if someone hit another car (even killed someone), and drove away, but the other driver got the number plate? Would the Judge still accept that some, conveniently far away, other driver was to blame?

I'd imagine the Judges just don't see speeding as an important crime and so couldn't be arsed going after these guys. If the same driver was up in court for running over the Judge's mother, I really doubt the "cousin from America" excuse would hold water.

its nothing to do with judges it never gets that far

because the gardai dont have a computerised system they cant deal with tracking down tickets that come back without the drivers information
they can barely deal with the people who fill in the tickets correctly
never mind tracking someone down to see if they resemble the person in a blurred photo


also as its mostly about raising money its probably done on a cost basis

Trojan

JP Mulvano wrote:

What a load of ****. you're caught speeding the best thing to do is pay the fine. don't be a prick, hold your hands up say fine I did it and don't f*&k around wasting the Gardai or the courts time.

Yes, and have my insurance shoot up as well as paying the fine?

I'm not currently (or in last 4 years) a driver, but I understand why people get annoyed with this.

When Irish roads have appropriate speed limits, i.e. the twisty narrow "National Routes" we all know are reduced from 60, when there's no 50mph sections on 6 lane motorways, and when the Gardai start using speeding as a means of taking dangerous drivers off the roads rather than a very lucrative exercise in revenue collection, *then* we might have some more positive movement on this issue.

For the time being, were I to get a car tomorrow and get caught doing 51mph going out the M1 at 5am... I think I might fight it.

Victor

Trojan wrote:

When Irish roads have appropriate speed limits, i.e. the twisty narrow "National Routes" we all know are reduced from 60,

Happening next year.

Trojan wrote:

when there's no 50mph sections on 6 lane motorways,

Just how many section of 50mph sections on 6 lane motorways do we have?

Trojan wrote:

very lucrative exercise in revenue collection,

Traffic fines loose money.

Trojan wrote:

For the time being, were I to get a car tomorrow and get caught doing 51mph going out the M1 at 5am... I think I might fight it.

Motorways only acocunt for 2-3% of speeding tickets, but a much higher percentage of overall traffic.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

.Motorways only acocunt for 2-3% of speeding tickets, but a much higher percentage of overall traffic.

what percentage of speeding tickets are issued to people doing 45 /50 miles an hour in housing estates
near schools or on narrow back roads

we all see the gardai on dual carriage ways where the speed limit is set too low shooting fish in a barrell

BrianD

twit
**** are hiding catching people a few miles over the limit on dual carriageways and motorways

Granted that these types of speed checks are very fustrating but you are still speeding and if you do it on the motorway you'll do it outside a school.

yeah i heard that the cousin from america works a treat you dont even have to pay the fine

That is incorrect. I have a speeding fine in front of me. Number plate, infringement, the speed the vehicle was allegedly going at (56 in a 40) and the fine payable. In order to say your American cousin was driving you have to complete his/her details and return the form with the fine. If you don't do both the form will be returned and the situation escalates. You are probably better putting in your cousin and paying the fine. Bear in mind that you are committing an offence when you provide false information.

The particular fine in front of me is made out to the company. We have returned it with a cheque for the fine but without filling out the driver details. This was returned to us immediately by the Gardai - form and cheque with an explaination note If the company can not identify the driver then they must pay a fine of €800.

They must tighten up this one because of the number of vehicles on the road owned by companies - sales reps cars, trucks, vans etc. Truck drivers generally disregard the speed limits and every sales rep claims to be a "professional driver" with extra driving skills that nobody else possesses like being able to "safely speed".

sliabh

BrianD wrote:

every sales rep claims to be a "professional driver" with extra driving skills that nobody else possesses like being able to "safely speed".

I have always felt this one was a bit of a joke. You regularly hear of people in court for dangerous driving and they say they need the licence for their job. This usually gets them out of a disqualification. It should be working the other way. i.e If you drive so much then:
a) you should have known better what is and is not legal
and
b) you spend more time behind the wheel so therefore your dangerous behaviour is leading to a much greater risk than normal that you or someone else will get killed.

So there is greater urgency to get you off the road.

Capt'n Midnight

The biggest loophole is that only about half of the number plates can be ID'd by the camera because of dirt..

BrianD wrote:

every sales rep claims to be a "professional driver" with extra driving skills that nobody else possesses like being able to "safely speed". /QUOTE]If they are "professional" in the driving sense then simply showing thier "higher than B" license or Advanced Driving Cert could prove this.

Or if driving is necessary for thier job then, to risk job loss by breaking the law is kinda unprofessional..

BrianD

In Australia there are double fines for vehicles that are owned by companies. This means that on bank holidays drivers in the company cars caught speeding could be facing a fine of up to AU$2000!

They also have laws in most Australian states about the visibility of number plates. A number plate must be clean and clear enough to be read at a distance of 25 metres. If it's not, its a offence. I assume that there is probably something similar in Irish law somewhere plus it could be one of the reason why number plates were added to the NCT list.