PLanning for Second Plane - Advice welcome

Billy Pilgrim

I'm going well with my trainer and I'm nearly ready to move on to my second plane. I don't really fancy sports models, but I'm anxious to get into scale or semi-scale and I was considering the Great PLanes AT-6 Taxan ARTF. Would welcome advice or pointers from the more experienced, especially any who have flown this model.

coolwings

A Is your trainer still alive...in other words, are you looking for a plane and engine and any size is ok , or are you looking for a second plane of a particular size to use the engine from your ex-trainer :eek:

B How many flights have you got up so far, 10 - 30, 30- 50, more ...?

C ARF only , or are you interested in building ...?

Billy Pilgrim

I have about 15 or so flights in the trainer so far, but I'm not planning to fly anything new until I have a lost more and I've squeezed everything I can out of it. I'm not too bothered about the engine size as I have a .40 in the trainer at the moment and I recently bought a .52, so I figure I have a good range available.
As for construction, I'm going to stick to ARTF just for now, but I'll try my hand at an ARC further down the road.

Fobia

A good plane is a "low wing trainer", but most people want their second plane to do "proper stunts" - I know I didn't buy a second trainer.

Personally, I went out and bought a Gambler (pattern ship) and a .48 super custom engine. I have to say, it was well out of my league....after a few flights building up my confidence, I crashed hard (it was too far away and I didn't realise I was inverted!). I guess I should have bought a low wing trainer .

The moral of the story is you can go with a pattern ship or a low wing trainer, the pattern ship will be alot more fun but alot more prone to crashes..

I'm sure some people at your club can give you good advice also!

Fobia.

coolwings

After about 25-30 flights you can generally fly safely in your trainer, however you can't get out of unexpected trouble automatically. That stage comes at maybe 50 flights. But it is planning ahead to get a 2nd model before you need it.

If that is a 52 4-stroke you are looking at .46 size models with approx 55" wingspan if "sport", and a faster landing 50" if "scale" .

If you go for a model with short wings, narrow tip wings, thin wing tips,or wide fuselage:wings ratio, you will likely wreck it after a disappointingly short time, but it will be enjoyable during that time ....
Trouble is ... the short life of your model will prevent you looking at nice models afterwards, because you will be afraid they will also last only a short time..
The wings need to be semi-symmetrical at most, slightly exetended, and the more agility the model has, the slower and lighter it must be.

You could look at http://www.greenhobbymodel.com/glowair1.htm A Gladiator, Super Air might be fun even though they are "sport". Home Run & Gambler would do, but land a little fast if there is no wind on the day to slow them down.Other alternatives are best if they have a similar outline to these.
Also you could look at Funfly 3D style like Wildcard for your second model.

An alternative is to look at aerobatic high wing models that are not trainers, like Azuro, Wot 4, (both kits). These are as fast as low wings, more agile than most, but retain high wing stability at landing time.

Or the hybrid semi scale funfly models like Somethin Extra, AT6 Texan 3D which are lighter than many aerobatic models their size, and teach you a lot, but safely.

What Fobia said about fellow club members is a very good idea.

Finally there are the many Speed 400 foamie electrics, weighing only 800 grams they don't break much in a mistake, but they sure are lively. In many cases you are only risking 2 servos. And the engine only costs € 8 Avoid the deltas and Picojets at this stage, maybe think about Twinspeedy or Cargo

Fobia

coolwings wrote:

Also you could look at Funfly 3D style like Wildcard for your second model.

With high dual rates on of course.

coolwings

I should have thought of this one earlier. Take a look at the Spacewalker also, its ideal for a first low wing, its 40 - 50 size, ARF and its a standoff scale PT-19 but in more high vis colour scheme.

hint: if you do like scale, leave camo for later ... they are meant not to be seen, which makes em kinda harder to fly.

Billy Pilgrim

Look guys, I appreciate all the advice, and the years of experience are obvious from the replies.
But it seems to me (a relative newcomer, I admit), that there are two schools in model flying: there's the 'lets fly day-glo green or purple adrenilin-inducing nytro-machines", and there's the 'lets fly boring and staid, but historically (reasonably) accurate miniature reproductions of real planes' brigade.
The former want any arrangement of balsa and plastic (sorry, monokote) that can whip through the air like an ariel shark closing on a wounded Roy Schnieder, while the latter want to look longingly at a slow-moving green and grey lump as it meanders nostalgically across the sky, bemoaning the fact that they weren't born fifty years earlier.
I firmly belong to the latter. And what I want to know is; is there a model out there that fulfills the needs of category two, and yet is reasonably moron-proof? (for such I proudly am).

coolwings

What you will be learning next is just how fast these aerobatic models (which you CAN fly), drop a wing when flying over-slow on landing approach ... now a low level wingstall cartwheels the plane on contact with the ground. Bye Bye model.
On the other hand if you are slope soaring a scale Spitfire, which you shouldn't be flying now, but if you were ... and you wingstall it, it is a glider Spit, no engine, 30-40% less weight inside, and maybe 80% less damage for your "lesson". It's still a Spit, flies like a Spit, but more forgiving than the flat-field-grass-takeoff-recommended-by-the-club-or-magazine-Spit.
Do you live near a hilly area or coastline where the wind is good for soaring?

What our advice is, is an attempt to keep your match of ability and plane such that, when you move to your 3rd model, you STILL HAVE your 1st AND 2nd models intact, maybe with a little glue added, but still flyable. And still have each model a step up from the last.

This is difficult ... if you are in doubt how rare it happens like this ... take a look at your fellow club members who can already fly, but are on maybe 3rd plane. Most will only have 1 aircraft.
A common feature is guys who got burned with a lively model, still flying high wings or slowflys on their 4th plane.

It's no harm to keep your models for later but you don't have to get boring models to achieve this aim, IF you make the lessons repairable BEFORE they happen.

Your low-wing trainer model could be an indoor (slow) biplane (scale) weight 250 grams (harder to break), but capable of inverted flight (airbatic), made of foam(easy to rapair).

The old model division by type is well and truly broken down if you want that.

coolwings

I thought of scale models similar to Spacewalker but more scale:
Did you look at the Pilatus PC-9 Roulette?
Its scale, low wing, reasonable to fly, ARF 40-50 size ......

Fobia

Hey,
Billy Pilgrim: after seeing a post of yours in galway, I wonder are you the same guy that was flying out a few weeks ago and landed for the first time? (have you met me?)

If so then you're well able to buy a second model and get it ready, you should be off the buddylead in a lesson or two then you just need about 10 flights without it to build up your confidence (I'd imagine it's alot different not having the safety of a teacher to take over when you get stuck....but I can't be sure as the club wasn't half as big as it now when I learnt so didn't have buddy leads), then if you think you're ready then go for it! Get one of the trainer guy's to give it a run first though of course, for trims etc.

See you on the field

Fobia.

techguy

If your interested in the wot4 I am just after finishing the classic version(untapered wing) I will post in the next week or two to report how it flies. It is a kit build tho' and you might not want that.
Take a look at www.chrisfoss.co.uk

Hakko

coolwings

If you talk to the older instructors you will usually get the following (very sensible) guidelines....

Model 1 (if no instructor) High wing no ailerons,3 channel
Model 1 (with instructor) High wing with ailerons
Model 2 Low wing sport, square wing tips preferably
Model 3 either funfly = slow light agile aerobatic tight turns
or low wing pattern = fast heavier less agile also aerobatic wide turns
Model 4 The one you didnt do for model 3

The progression follows these model features:
Flat bottom wing - semi symmetrical wing - symmetrical wing
Slowest landings - faster landings - very fast landings
Dihedral (V-shape) wing - straight wing
Low wing loading - high wing loading (=stall tendency)

after that .... whatever you like ... go big, go scale, go heli it has no surprises
It is generally thought that this is the way to top flying skills with the least breakages & re-gluing. Each step adds one more skill at a time, each model is harder to fly but flies better than the last.

Hope this helps

Fobia

coolwings wrote:

If you talk to the older instructors you will usually get the following (very sensible) guidelines....

Model 1 (if no instructor) High wing no ailerons,3 channel
Model 1 (with instructor) High wing with ailerons
Model 2 Low wing sport, square wing tips preferably
Model 3 either funfly = slow light agile aerobatic tight turns
or low wing pattern = fast heavier less agile also aerobatic wide turns
Model 4 The one you didnt do for model 3

The progression follows these model features:
Flat bottom wing - semi symmetrical wing - symmetrical wing
Slowest landings - faster landings - very fast landings
Dihedral (V-shape) wing - straight wing
Low wing loading - high wing loading (=stall tendency)

after that .... whatever you like ... go big, go scale, go heli it has no surprises
It is generally thought that this is the way to top flying skills with the least breakages & re-gluing. Each step adds one more skill at a time, each model is harder to fly but flies better than the last.

Hope this helps

A very informative guide alright, however I'd have to disagree with Model 1.

The sole problem is that, when flying 3 channel planes the general way is Throttle on the left stick, rudder and elevator on the right stick. This is fine for 3 channel but when you progress to 4 channel the standard worldwide is mode 2 - ie throttle and rudder on the left, elevator and ailerons on the right (except for in Cork apparently), so the person learning has to either learn to switch modes or else become a "mode weird" as they say in Galway, flyer, with ailerons and throttle on the left stick.

Personally I think in this day and age it's fine to fly a 4 channel trainer for starters even if they don't have an instructor, they will get used to using ailerons as the main method of turning early and wont have to encounter the strange feeling of flying in a different mode than they're used to. I flew what was basically a glider with an old super custom engine to start, tiny thing in it, on a bog out in the country, looking at the club now I can't believe how far it came from having an old club of 15 or so splitting up and a new one being formed with over 40 members after just 2 years! Back on topic.


Unless of course, they fly with one stick only for their first model, in which case I think it's wrong as they need to get used to using two sticks at the same time early!

Just my 2 cents,

Fobia.

coolwings

Fobia
That last post makes interesting reading ... especially for anyone thinking of getting into RC flight.

It might be a good idea to copy it onto the top of a thread about "how we got going in RC flying and what models we learned on", and so on ...

It might be an andidote to the folks who turn up when I'm flying, ask "How much did that cost?" I reply "about 350-400 the lot, and they reply, "You can get one exactly like that in Argos for 100 ...."

They really don't know the difference until after they've wasted the money.
A thread on "real" trainers might help some.

Fobia

Done.

Let's try and get back on topic....

So what's the situation with your second plane now Billy Pilgrim?

Fobia.

Billy Pilgrim

Went ahead and bought a Seagull Models Texan AT-6. Already had an MDS .58 pro, but I think this is too much engine, so I'm hoping to exchange it for a 46 or 48, (the recommended range is .32-.53).
Figued the At-6 was a good compromise for a second model (time will tell). I wanted to get into scale or semi-scale as soon as possible, these dayglo purple whizz machines don't appeal to me at all. The AT-6 is low wing and semi-symmetrical, but its got a (more or less) constant chord and square wings. I have a while to go yet on the trainer, so I reckon it'll be the New Year before I attempt to fly it. In the meantime I'll tinker away. Let you know how I get on.

Fobia

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Let you know how I get on.

Hopefully I'll be there on the day, . Will you be bringing it out before to let others have a look at it?

Billy Pilgrim

Yeah. I'll take it down to the GMFC flying field when I have it completed and let more experienced eyes look it over. I'll let you know when, probably in the New Year.

coolwings

I get the feeling that that's what most of the experienced fliers are doing right now ... making a new model while its unflyable outside.
I'll have a maiden flight with a new model then too.

Best of luck with the Texan