Why do Irish drivers break red traffic lights?

HelterSkelter

You've all seen it (and maybe done it yourself!) the traffic light goes amber and the driver accelerates to get through, sometimes he even accelerates when it turns red. I've seen occations where up to 4 cars went through after the light turned red!!!

Why does this happen? I reckon it's down to two things...

1. When the lights initially turn green the first few drivers are usualy asleep and take 5-10 seconds to take off the handbrake, get in gear and pull away. This frustrates the rest of the drivers in the queue behind them.

2. On a lot of junctions the traffic lights stay green for a very short length of time. One set of traffic lights I use a lot only stay green for 3 seconds, what a joke!! Lots of people break them.

In response to the first reason I think we should introduce the system they have in the UK where the red and amber light come on before the green. This gives people a warning that the light is about to turn green so they will be ready to move (see second pic on http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs01.shtml)

And the second reason simply make traffic lights stay green for a realistic amount of time. I'd much raher sit at a red light for 3 mins and know the green light was going to stay on for 3 mins than this rediculous short cycle they have on some junctions where it goes from red to green and back again 5 times before you get through.

leonlafrite

Why should anyone care , no garda is going to give you a ticket for a red light, too much work and too time consuming...

I'll tell you if there was a little more law inforcement regarding driving in Dublin, thing will be different.

MrPudding

This is a pet hate of mine. I personally don't think there is any excuse for running a red light myself, normal road users that is. I have had 2 occasions on the N11 when I have actually come to a complete stop and the driver behind me has pulled out past me and ran the light. These were not cases where they could not have stopped safely. One of the time this happened the driver in question had also came to a complete stop and decided to move on again.

The suggestion of an amber before green was put to the traffic guy from DCC on the Right Hook show. He agreed that it would speed up traffic but they could not and would not implement it. The reason? Too dangerous due to the amount of red light jumping. This makes me sick.

What is actually needed is driver education, enforcement and a few deaths. People need to be taught that it is not OK to run red lights. Running red lights needs to be seen to have a legal consequence. At the moment I think there are very few people “getting done” for running red lights. I see bus drivers, driving instructors and other professional drivers as well as normal punters running lights. I have seen the police watching drivers run red lights and take no action. If you run a red light you should get penalty points and a fine. If you are a professional driver and you run red lights you should lose you license, not necessarily for a first offence perhaps on a 3 strikes basis.

If I could I would introduce the amber before green here. I would do it for the reason that the people in charge in this country won’t. People will die. If you run a red light and get killed you will not run another red light. Nice and simple. I would start a campaign of education of drivers and the population at large alerting them that the light sequence is going to change and warn them that they will not have the usual grace period. If they run the lights then fine. Fcuk them. Natural selection in action. The light breaker should get t-boned in most cases with the innocent party having a head on encounter. I feel this will reduce the likelihood of innocent people getting killed too often. I would of course feel sorry for any one involved, except the person that ran the red light that is. But I think it will take something like this to force Irish drivers to comply with what should be the simplest of driving rules.

dublin_apache

HelterSkelter wrote:

Why do Irish drivers break red traffic lights?

Because there're no Guards there to slap those drivers on the hand.

Capt'n Midnight

HelterSkelter wrote:

In response to the first reason I think we should introduce the system they have in the UK where the red and amber light come on before the green. This gives people a warning that the light is about to turn green so they will be ready to move (see second pic on http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs01.shtml).

While you'd think that it would improve traffic flow it doesn't and besides wouldn't be much use if you are stuck behind a van or SUV or if there is one muppet in the queue.

I'd leave this one up to motorcyclists to decide - since they are the ones most likely to get killed by changes in green light timing as they'd be caught in the junction..

cyclopath2001

HelterSkelter wrote:

You've all seen it (and maybe done it yourself!) the traffic light goes amber and the driver accelerates to get through, sometimes he even accelerates when it turns red. I've seen occations where up to 4 cars went through after the light turned red!!!

Funny you should mention this, tonight, I was stopped in the right-turn lane at the traffic lights (outbound) at the Clontarf Road waiting for the right hand-filter to allow me to turn right onto the Alfie Byrne road. Two cars came up behind me stopped, then after a few seconds, they gave up waiting, crossed the continuous white line, passed me and turned right against the signal, and across a pedestrian crossing showing green for pedestrians. Fortunately, the pedestrians that were crossing were able to reach safety before the cars reached them.

It was dark, I was on a bicycle & I was seriously contemplating the prospect of being back-ended by following cars as I waited for the lights to change.

The first car was a bit flash & had a yellow personalised plate, probably a Nordie, the second was an Irish BMW. I guess one was trying to catch a ferry, the other, was well......a BMW driver & both figured that there was little chance of being caught & penalised.

I've seen this before at this junction.

C:\

seamus

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I've seen this before at this junction.

It's quite common. I see it about twice a week. I'd say it's 50% ignorance, 50% arrogance that drivers do it. I tend to blow the horn when anyone does it. I've also had drivers beep me for no reason when sitting waiting to turn left, and the lights are obviously red for us, and green for the pedestrian crossing in the road to the left.

Capt'n Midnight

As my brother said "you know when you go through lights a little late and you feel a little guilt, you look in the mirror and there is always someone behind you.."

There is the convoy effect (or something) where there are a group of cars together and the last ones will try to get through the lights too..

sliabh

The reason it happens is people feel they won't get caught. But after my recent experience with the Garda traffic watch number (I called in a guy going the wrong way around a roundabout) I know you can do something about this.

If you see it happening, get their registration and call 1890 205 805. When you go through the details they will ask you if you are willing to make a statement. If you say yes then about a week later a Garda will call in person and see are you still willing (or if you have calmed down and are not as worried about it all). You won't even have to go to court. They can use your statement as the basis for a caution to the driver.

So don't just get mad (and post on Boards ) get on the phone to the authorities.

dmeehan

there are gaurds positioned at some junstions in cork city centre every morning. this has the effect of stopping (most) idiots from breaking a red or stopping on a yellow box

however, on some occasions a muppet driver does exactly this and even though he may be 2ft away from said garda, the garda does NOTHING. he stands there looking a the driver stuck on the yellow box

enforce the law please, or otherwise it wont be long utill every driver ignores the gardai standing watch at the junctions

pork99

dmeehan wrote:

however, on some occasions a muppet driver does exactly this and even though he may be 2ft away from said garda, the garda does NOTHING. he stands there looking a the driver stuck on the yellow box

I've seen something similar in Dublin - truck driver stopped blocking pedestrian crossing at the junction of the Quays, O'Connell St and O'Connell Bridge when the light was red against him and the green man was on. The Garda directing traffic just stared at it. You had to walk halfway up O'Connell street to get around the ignorant f#cker trucker.

It's a symptom of chancing your arm trying to beat the amber light. I agree with losing your license permanently the third time you break a red light.

LFCFan

what about implementing 'Turn left on Red ' like in America (except it's Turn Right on Red of course). It's frustrating sitting at a red light when you want to turn left and there's nothing coming. It would speed up some junctions. Of course it could be dangerous in this country considering the amount of idiots we have on the roads.

gurramok

Why do Irish drivers break red traffic lights?.

Simply because they get to work earlier in mornings and get home quicker in evenings by a few min extra saved! ...Traffic gridlock gets drivers anxious about commuting times.

As said, it won't stop until there is law enforcement.

John R

LFCFan wrote:

what about implementing 'Turn left on Red ' like in America (except it's Turn Right on Red of course). It's frustrating sitting at a red light when you want to turn left and there's nothing coming. It would speed up some junctions. Of course it could be dangerous in this country considering the amount of idiots we have on the roads.

You have answered your own question there. I have no doubt it would lead to carnage here. Remember also that many red lights at junctions are used for pedestrian crossings, that would remove any protection for pedestrians.

jlang

John R wrote:

You have answered your own question there. I have no doubt it would lead to carnage here. Remember also that many red lights at junctions are used for pedestrian crossings, that would remove any protection for pedestrians.

From what I've seen the idea is that you stop at the corner and only proceed once you are satisfied that there is no traffic coming and that there are no pedestrians attempting to cross. Also, where there would be problems, a 'No turn on red' sign can be implemented.

But even with all that said, and sure in my belief that it could work here, I still can't see it coming in.

Gandhi

It doesn't work that well over here (in the States) either. Lots of cities and states have already gotten rid of it.

The problem is that people tend to just look over their left shoulder for traffic coming from their left, and forget about pedestrians coming from the right, as well as any cars facing them turning left on a green arrow.

Here in Philly, it's to the point that almost every intersection in the city now has a "no turn on red" sign on it, so they might as well just get rid of it.

The one thing they do that is smart is have those metal detectors in the roads, so if you are sitting at a red and nothing is coming from the other side, you get a green pretty quickly, even if it is out of sequence.

LFCFan

Gandhi wrote:

The one thing they do that is smart is have those metal detectors in the roads, so if you are sitting at a red and nothing is coming from the other side, you get a green pretty quickly, even if it is out of sequence.

Most biggish junctions in Ireland work that way too. I once had to get out of my car and tell the woman in front of me to move forward because she hadn't crossed the sensor (she still didn't move so I had to go around her and reverse back over the sensor. Stupid woman :mad: )

cyclopath2001

John R wrote:

You have answered your own question there. I have no doubt it would lead to carnage here. Remember also that many red lights at junctions are used for pedestrian crossings, that would remove any protection for pedestrians.

I would have to agree.

When they introduced the flashing amber phase in pedestrian crossings, this just encouraged drivers to advance aggresssively towards pedestrians who were still crossing.

C:\

MrPudding

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I would have to agree.

When they introduced the flashing amber phase in pedestrian crossings, this just encouraged drivers to advance aggresssively towards pedestrians who were still crossing.

C:\

How about a left with caution system. You could have a standard set of light except instead of green you have a flashing amber arrow pointing left. These are already at some left turns. This would mean you could have a period where the light is red to allow pedestrians to cross safely(ish.) At all other time it could be a left with caution. This makes a lot more sense to me than simply reinforcing the “it’s OK to drive through red lights” attitude a lot of Irish drivers have. For me red lights should mean stop.

MrP

Andrew Duffy

Cautionary left filters are terrible as they encourage drivers to block the pedestrian crossing while they wait, usually leading to pedestrians crossing a dual carriageway or multilane road well away from the islands designed to protect them.
A comprehensive redesign of junctions, with stop lines and boxes painted (and repainted after roadworks) by someone who is a road engineer rather than by a badly trained monkey is needed to prevent motorists blocking junctions for each other and for pedestrians. Maybe after a while of people actually stopping in the right place, the light sequences can be shortened, wait times will reduce and pedestrians will stop jaywalking.

Gandhi

On my way to work this morning, I noticed that people seem to run reds after the person a few cars in front has to sit at the green while cars coming the other way are busy running the red. It is a vicious circle.
It seems like the traffic comes in waves, and if nobody ran the reds, then everyone in the wave would get through on the green.

Of course, the problem with all traffic laws is that they are just not enforced. At least if you got a fine every time you ran a red, were speeding etc, you would know where you stand.
Plus you would not find yourself in a line of cars that are all breaking the same law, wondering if you will be the one who gets caught. If I ever come to a full stop at a Stop sign, drive right at the speed limit, etc, I actually feel guilty that I am holding up traffic.

LFCFan: Most biggish junctions in Ireland work that way too. I once had to get out of my car and tell the woman in front of me to move forward because she hadn't crossed the sensor (she still didn't move so I had to go around her and reverse back over the sensor. Stupid woman )

I still think the best solution for that is on the continent where the lights go to flashing amber / flashing red after rush hour.

Half the time here, they put the sensors right on the ped crossing, so you can either drive onto the crossing (illegal) or sit at a red light forever.

In the bicycle rules of the road, they tell you that if the light is not changing, then the sensor is faulty and to go through. If you get in an accident, the contractor that installed the sensor is at fault. I suppose so your family can sue them to pay for the funeral. Great.

BrianD3

On my way to work this morning, I noticed that people seem to run reds after the person a few cars in front has to sit at the green while cars coming the other way are busy running the red. It is a vicious circle.
It seems like the traffic comes in waves, and if nobody ran the reds, then everyone in the wave would get through on the green.

Yep. And while this vicous circle is bad enough at normal traffic lights, it's ten times worse at temporary traffic lights (eg at roadworks) I had a little rant about this in the Motors forum.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=190445

BrianD3

Pigman II

Lawlessness is part of being Irish.

Eye

oh i see that alot myself, but it's really worrying for me as i drive a bike.

If i'm approaching a set of lights and they are changing to amber, then i'll always do my best to stop unless they roads are very wet/slippery in which case jamming on the brakes would only cause the bike to slide out from under me. So more often than not i drive up and see an amber light and stop, meanwhile idiots behind me see the amber light and speed up thinking, well he is on a bike he is sure to gun it and try make it through the lights before they change. then of course they see me brake and have to hit the brakes hard to avoid hitting me.

The number of times i've heard people skidding up behind me when i'm stopping for lights is ridiculous and quiet frankly scary. how i've not been taken out from behind by some tool of a boy racer i'll never know.

egan007

Pigman II wrote:

Lawlessness is part of being Irish.

Hence 98% compliance withthe smoking ban

LFCFan

AFAIK, in Sweden, if you break a Red Light or Fail to stop at a Stop Sign, you can lose your license. And it's enforced. Maybe it's not as strict as that but the safety record on Swedish roads speak for themselves.

LFCFan

I don't think the Irish are lawless by and large. I think it's more to do with lack of education/lack of common sense.

Chalk

i drive a bike
id say i take a few chances on the red lights.
mostly on lights which i know the sequence - 5 minute wait for an empty road
or ones that arent suited to bikers eg the pressure sensitve ones that dont sense a bike

i can understand peoples frustration when driving to work in the mornings
usually id be at the front of a queue of cars at every set of lights and as sonn as there green im gone

a quick look in the mirror usually shows that it can ge a good 7 or 8 seconds before the car has even begun to acclerate.
simply reverse this situation and the car that has just stopped to give you the right of way watches as you seem content to hold everyone else in the queue up.
basically he could have made the gap as you werent ready to move.

as a biker im alittle more aware of the cars around me so i can usually tell if someones gonna run a light bfore i pull in front of them.

finally the amber light before the green light wouldnt really work to well imo
everyone would be going as soon as it was amber - much the same as the current situatuion with red lights

sliabh

LFCFan wrote:

I don't think the Irish are lawless by and large. I think it's more to do with lack of education/lack of common sense.

I don't think this is true. I think by and large we are law abiding. The success of the insurance fraud hotline, the traffic watch number and even the smoking ban show this.

But there is a sizeable visible minority that is not. And the problem is that when people see others getting away with things (especially minor things like driving up the hard shoulder or bus lanes, breaking lights, etc) then while they know they shouldn't, they adopt a "what the hell" attitude. So more do it, and more get pissed off, and more do it etc.

Deterrance/enforcement leads to compliance, leading to greater compliance. The problem is getting the Guards (who to be fair have a lot of other things on their plate) to kick off the cycle.

Here's hoping the mythical traffic corps is put in place at some stage.

Gandhi

Judging by an article on the nearby "Speeding Loopholes" thread ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=201428 ), it seems pretty easy to get away with traffic violations once it goes to court.

If that is the case, you can't blame the cops. Why would they bother hauling anyone in if the Judge is likely to let him off anyway?

mackerski

John R wrote:

You have answered your own question there. I have no doubt it would lead to carnage here. Remember also that many red lights at junctions are used for pedestrian crossings, that would remove any protection for pedestrians.

There's an important point to note here - our pedestrian lights work the same way as those in the UK, but completely unlike those in any other country I've been in (including the US). Here, a pedestrian only ever gets a green man when all traffic has been stopped over his crossing. Most other countries don't do this, and, in theory, we shouldn't have to either, since vehicles are already obliged to yield to pedestrians on junctions. By now, most readers are thinking something like "in their holes, they yield to pedestrians", and this is true. But this is in many ways a consequence of the way light sequences work.

Consider a classic signal-controlled crossroads. When a motorist has green, the pedestrian crossings on his straight-on path have red. The motorist is therefore not obliged to yield if proceeding straight. However, the pedestrians on the crossing street do have green, so a turning motorist must yield (and, crucially, since this is how all junctions work, he knows he must yield and is more likely to do so even where no signals are provided - cultural benefit). Filter arrows, from my observations, are only provided when the pedestrian on the indicated path has red.

I've seen right-on-red in the US and Germany (it filtered in from the DDR after the wall came down, but it's only allowed at junctions bearing a special sign with a red arrow pointing right with, IIIRC, a green border). Both countries have the yield-on-turn pedestrian system. When exercising your right (or in the US, duty) to turn on red, you still yield, as normal, but with the twist that you must further yield to pedestrians crossing in front of you on your current road. It isn't rocket science, but it just can't fit into our system where pedestrians and motorists are barred from having conflicting green signals.

Two parting observations on the conflicts-allowed approach:

1. Anybody who's ever meekly stood by a green man in Paris and waited for the cars to stop, rather than asserting right of way as the locals do, now knows why it didn't work - a green man in most countries is like a pedestrian crossing: the cars must stop for you, but only once you're on the crossing. (and no, in Paris it's still not for the faint-hearted).

2. Once you get the motorists to comply (and failure is good grounds for mucho points, much more so than speeding or even seat belts), your crossings have the potential to move higher volumes of cars, due to the eradication of the dead time of the pedestrian sequences when the pavements are deserted.

Dermot