Modern cars: bloated and too heavy

BrianD3

Anyone here want to discuss this statement. I've been thinking about this for ages but it really hit me watching Top Gear on Sunday. Clarkson tested the new Landrover Discovery and informed viewers that it weighed 2.7 tonnes. The car is also bigger in every dimension and thirstier than the old Discovery which was a not a small vehicle. 2.7 tonnes is just crazy though - that's not a car, it's a small truck. Makes me nervous to think of soccer moms driving these on a car licence.

Passive safety equipment/design is one of the major reasons why modern cars are so heavy. But ironically, the heavier cars get, the safer they *need* to be because when they hit a solid object (eg tree) the extra weight means more energy to dissipate. Also, if everyone is driving heavy cars, then everyone *needs* to drive heavy cars if they want a reasonable level of passive safety (because when heavy cars crash into light cars, the light car usually comes off worse due to simple physics)

The Peugeot 407 is a good example of an overweight barge - weighs 1.5 tonnes. Ten years ago, its predecessor the 405 weighed 1.1 tonnes. Likewise, today's Ford Mondeo is an awful lot bigger and heavier than an old Sierra. And in this month's Classic and Sportscar mag they test the seventies Citroen GS and Alfasud both decent and interesting family cars which weighed around 850 kg. The Mk 1 VW Golf was about the same weight. Today's Golf is huge in comparsion and weighs 1.3-1.4 tonnes. Big difference.

The light weight of older cars is one reason why they are often more fun to drive. TBH, I prefer the Citroen GS to a modern Golf and if the GS was still available new I would strongly consider buying it ahead of the Golf which makes me wonder has car design really progressed that much in 30 years.

Of course modern cars do have their advantages. One is that they are generally more fuel efficient despite the extra weight that the engine has to lug around. What would be cool would be to combine the efficiency of a modern engine with the light bodyshell of an older car.

Then you have the big alloys and wide tyres fitted as standard on many modern family cars. 16 or 17 inch wheels with 225mm width tyres are common. In the seventies, 13 inch steel wheels with 155mm width tyres were the norm and even supercars had smaller wheels and tyres than today's family cars. The problem with big alloys and tyres is cost. Buying a new tyre for a modern family car can be a traumatic experience

Another thing is all the luxury gadgets fitted to modern cars. Eg mine has climate control and I have hardly ever used it.

On a somewhat related topic what about manufacturers now designing cars so that you cannot change a HEADLIGHT BULB without going to a main dealer who will relive you of 70 quid to change it. What kind of feckin madness is that.

Anyhow I'm just throwing out a few ideas that people might want to discuss

BrianD3

OfflerCrocGod

It's the CD player.

impr0v

I couldn't believe it either when I heard the weight of the new Discovery, there have probably been lighter tanks.

knifey_spoonie

Give it a year and with the amount of stuff that will fall off them it will be down to 2 tonne

Seth Brundle

As an example, isn't the current Polo bigger than the original Golf?

BrianD3

Yeah the current Polo is bigger than the Golf Mk1, plus the current Lupo is heavier than the Golf Mk1. And neither is as good to drive as the Golf Mk1 (and I'm talking about cooking versions of the Golf, nevermind the GTi)

BrianD3

mike65

This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine. Along with ****ing great A and C pillars, which is a sympton of same problem.

Some examples of whats gone wrong -















Mike.

John R

Not a week goes by without another alarming statistic about the obese population, it is no surprise that cars are also turning into lard-arses.

Seth Brundle

I assume the pic that isn't loading Mike is one like this...

Seth Brundle

Just on the note of cars changing, came across this last night...
5 different generations of the 5 series (E12, E28, E34, E39 & E60)

Getting bigger every time!

mike65

kbannon wrote:

I assume the pic that isn't loading Mike is one like this...

I can see it fine, but hey there's always room for another classic e30 shot!

Mike.

BrianD3

Yeah, spot on lads.

I feel a rant coming on about SUVs, MPVs, obese children, cupholders, soccer moms, DVD players/playstations in cars.....but it's a bit late.

It's funny how things have changed. Twenty years ago if you had a big flock of children and needed some space you got one of these:

Whereas now you'd get something like this.


BrianD3

puntosporting

Its gone a bit pear shaped lately allright!
The typical advertising pitch for new cars now is how many airbags they have ,or that you can now have a fridge in your boot i mean what the fcuk!
It was great back in the late eighties an upmarket mod was leccy windows but now an upmarket mod means sat nav or a feckin dash mounted tv screen which i think should both be banned!
What ever happend to trying to sell a car on how it accelerates,brakes and corners?

greglo23

hi BrianD3 . did you ever drive a Citroen DS 21. an amazing car for its time and still looks good even now. http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/d/ds-4.htm

Rabies

kbannon wrote:

Getting bigger every time!

And getting closer to the camera

I like the style of the middle bmw. If I was to buy a second hand car I would try to find a bmw like that.

When I'm driving I prefer to drive larger and heavier cars. Don't like it when it feels too light on the road.

OfflerCrocGod

OK, then you can all go back to driving these then:



Me personally though I'd rather drive this:



Call me insane or whatever.

mike65

Rabies wrote:

I like the style of the middle bmw. If I was to buy a second hand car I would try to find a bmw like that.

Thats the nicest 5, the e28 which was from 1986-1997. Our very own Dahamsta has one and Unkle had one.

Mike.

Rabies

No thanks, I like what I drive now.

and this


Would love to have this jeep
*drool*

Seth Brundle

mike65 wrote:

I can see it fine, but hey there's always room for another classic e30 shot!

Your pic still doesn't load on my pc (nor does its parent website!)

mike65 wrote:

Rabies wrote:

I like the style of the middle bmw. If I was to buy a second hand car I would try to find a bmw like that.

Thats the nicest 5, the e28 which was from 1986-1997. Our very own Dahamsta has one and Unkle had one.

The middle one is the E34 which ran from '88 to '96!

unkel

I love that line-up of 5*5 series. First time I saw it was about a year ago. My brother in law has the E60 520i and indeed it is not that much smaller than my 7-series E38, to prove BrianD3's point

The E34 in the middle might be an M5 by the looks of it. I've got a sweet videoclip of two American dudes in the know that drive their M5 along the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring overtaking many 911's. I'll burn it onto a CD for anyone interested that would care to pick it up from Lucan

mike65 wrote:

Thats the nicest 5, the e28 which was from 1986-1997. Our very own Dahamsta has one and Unkle had one

It got me kinda hooked on BMW in general and on their V8 engines in particular - me likes

And the 'ceptr has one for sale with full NCT (are you telling us a lie, c? - thought you'd refuse to NCT any car out of principle) that he is willing to let go for just €1100, an absolute bargain

kbannon wrote:

The middle one is the E34 which ran from '88 to '96!

Tis the E34 alright

The years are a bit less straightforward. On this side of the Canal water, we are always a bit behind because we drive on the incorrect side of the road. Cars developed in countries where people drive on the correct side of the road must be specially adapted first, which takes some time...

The E34 was produced in Germany from '87 till '95 iirc

Seth Brundle

You are in fact correct - the ETK (online one at http://rust.mine.nu/bmw/carselect.do) tells me that it was 07/87 to the 12/95. I was close enough anyway!

Blitzkrieger

V8 BMW??!! Does it have the same overheating problems as the straight six?

I agree that modern cars are too heavy. Mine has air-con and I never use the bloody thing. The rest I wouldn't do without though - the e/w, p/s, sound-proofing, abs, etc. In hotter countries I would want my air-con back though. When I was in South America it was a life saver.

Seth Brundle

were going off topic here but anyway, they dont have overheating problems. However, they can overheat if the system isn't working properly - like any car!

BrianD3

hi BrianD3 . did you ever drive a Citroen DS 21. an amazing car for its time and still looks good even now. http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/d/ds-4.htm

Yeah the DS is a beautiful and great car and a total design classic. I've never driven one though. I actually prefer the CX to the DS - love the low styling on the CX - would like to own a CX GTi turbo in black with yellow headlights. I have driven the XM and it is also great but wouldn't be a fan of the C5 and in general I'm more of a Renault fan than a Citroen fan.

BrianD3

unkel

Ah the CX Familiale. Haven't seen one of them in decades

Looks a bit like, eh, a dildo :eek:

dcGT

unkel wrote:

Ah the CX Familiale. Haven't seen one of them in decades

Looks a bit like, eh, a dildo :eek:

LOL. Is it just me or is that one of the ugliest 'whale' of a car ever?

DC.

BrianD3

It's a loveable beached whale It's an eight seater and even with all seats in place it still has a usable boot. And despite the size of the thing it weighs about the same as Mk5 Golf TDi :eek:

BrianD3

Furp

I remember watching top gear a month or two ago and they did this exact argument Jeremy was saying that modern cars had become too fat and even though engines where getting more powerful the cars where getting slower, they then showed a test.

Did anyone see it I think they had an old golf and a new one and raced them on 1/5th of a mile, I can't remember which one won but I think it was the new one, but then they did it with five other cars including a cosworth escort against a focus, it was pretty good but I can't remember the results.

however it was almost even some of the old cars where faster then the newer versions and vice versa.

Seth Brundle

kbannon wrote:

Your pic still doesn't load on my pc (nor does its parent website!)

Photo is loading on work PC - site must have been down last night!

mike65

Gah! I just changed it now!

Mike.

DoctorEdgeWild

The only car company who have consistently produced good looking cars over the last decade have been Alfa Romeo. Just when every other company went for fat, chunky, samey cars - Alfa went for classis Italian designs. If anybody went to the Alfa show last year (?) then you could literally see how the cars developed organically.

Most other car manufacturers lock onto a trend and emulate each others' designs - plastic lanses over headlights or rear clusters (Micra, Corsa, Punto)

(by the way, I dont drive an Alfa, just aspire to. I have a Fiat Cinq!)

dcGT

DoctorEdgeWild wrote:

The only car company who have consistently produced good looking cars over the last decade have been Alfa Romeo. Just when every other company went for fat, chunky, samey cars - Alfa went for classis Italian designs. If anybody went to the Alfa show last year (?) then you could literally see how the cars developed organically.

Most other car manufacturers lock onto a trend and emulate each others' designs - plastic lanses over headlights or rear clusters (Micra, Corsa, Punto)

(by the way, I dont drive an Alfa, just aspire to. I have a Fiat Cinq!)

Yeah it's true Alfa do have some great looking cars and fabulous lines. But it seems that when they've paid the designer, they've no money left to build quality parts. They seem to still have reliability issues and high depriciation (albeit not as bad as the Alfas of old). A friend of mine has had nothing but problems with his 156; gearbox, then head gasket among other things....... not cheap to fix either.

DC.

DoctorEdgeWild

The build quality is an issue. It used to be that Italian cars (albeit with notable exceptions) were poorly built and beautiful to look at. I think Alfa has crawled away from that description but I take your point that there are some stinkers out there. I tend to find that if you get one with a history of problems, no amount of money will bring it up to spec. However, find a good one and it will last you as long as you look after it. A good Alfa just keeps on giving. Those AA car check things are great if you dont know much about cars - Around 100 bucks or so I think. Definitely worth it with the amount of dodgy dealers out there.

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

I actually prefer the CX to the DS - love the low styling on the CX - would like to own a CX GTi turbo in black with yellow headlights

I loved the CX 25 GTI Turbo at the time. Imho the DS has aged more gracefully - one of the most beautiful cars ever

BrianD3, if you're serious about the CX, you should consider importing one from France...

And how about the SM, another fantastic Citroen!

mike65

If I were brave I'd make a CX GTI my next car if I could find a good 'un!

Cue a nice pic



mmmmmmm!

Mike.

OfflerCrocGod

mike65 wrote:

mmmmmmm!

Mike.

Mike, Firefox is replacing that car's picture with the picture of an ugly, ancient, french piece of dog turd on four wheels. I wish I could see the lovely car you're admiring...........damn browser

unkel

Blasphemer! And then blaming it on the noblest of browsers, shame on you

Merrion

Part of the cause seems to be that safety was made into a marketing issue and, because bigger cars look safer (ironically in the case of roll-overs [aka soft roaders]) then making your car look big increases sales.

Or alternatively perhaps we have watched so many American films and TV programs that we have developed road-whale envy?

BrianD3

For anyone who's interested in reading road tests of the CX GTI Turbo and various other French cars go to
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/drop.html

The road test comparing the Saab 900 Turbo, CX GTI Turbo and Renault 25 V6 Turbo is a good read.

BrianD3

mike65

Jalopy magazine (whatever happened to?) gave the CX GTI Turbo the finest accolade - "a car for the sophisticated hooligan".

Mike.

BrianD3

Jalopy magazine

I remember that mag and have a couple of editions around here *somewhere*. Very entertaining read it was.

BrianD3

Stark

Yeah my parents got a new Megane a month or two back and it's a **** compared to the old Megane, so heavy and bulky, a bitch to drive in the city centre. Can't see for **** out the rear window either when reversing.

I mean with increasing traffic congestion, cars should be getting smaller

Interceptor

BrianD3 wrote:

It's a loveable beached whale It's an eight seater and even with all seats in place it still has a usable boot. And despite the size of the thing it weighs about the same as Mk5 Golf TDi :eek:

BrianD3

...And if you turn the CX upside down and fill it with water the kids can swim lengths of it in comfort. Have you all gone mad? The SM and DS had innovation and style on their side but the CX, (BX) and XM have to be the most awful rubbish ever made. I have driven all three and would cut my arms off if I thought I had to travel in one again. I can say without reservation that the controls on the CX had nothing to do with what the car did and it had more in common with a wooden-hulled boat than road based transport. The XM had a mind of its own and would open and close windows without being asked, the suspension could rise to its max mid-bend without any warning, resulting in the centre of gravity being at the tip of the radio aerial and it blew its head gasket in spectacular fashion on Stephens Green one xmas eve at 5.30pm - full of shopping and cranky kids I might add.

Yes, cars have become more bloated but technical advances mean they are safer, cleaner and more efficient. If people chose cars to suit their needs rather than their aspirations then we wouldn't need as many big cars or need to protect ourselves from being hit by them.

'c

Interceptor

unkel wrote:

And the 'ceptr has one for sale with full NCT (are you telling us a lie, c? - thought you'd refuse to NCT any car out of principle) that he is willing to let go for just €1100, an absolute bargain

Yes, I have an '88 520i for sale - its in very good condition, the NCT is out but I am confident that it would pass without much effort should anyone require it to complete the sale - I however won't be NCT'ing it while I drive it as I still say it is a WASTE OF BLIMMIN' TIME AND MONEY. Oh and I won't tax it either but thats because I am an antisocial blx who pays enough tax already....

Oh, and if I was going to start telling lies I'd make up good ones, like the time I drove Elvis's DeTomaso Pantera into Keith Moons swimming pool while off my face on crystal meths. We dried it out but it didn't run properly after ward and eventually Elvis shot it.

'c

unkel

Oh yeah the GT5 - the fastest production car at the time iirc

mike65 wrote:

Jalopy magazine (whatever happened to?) gave the CX GTI Turbo the finest accolade - "a car for the sophisticated hooligan"

Reminds me of my one and only skiing holiday (me no like that) in Chamonix - Mont Blanc. Came across a bunch of English lads with their poo brown RR silver spirit full of hang loose and other surfer/snowboarder stickers :eek:

Blitzkrieger

kbannon wrote:

However, they can overheat if the system isn't working properly - like any car!

Aye - I was referring to the tendency of the water pump to break down.

DoctorEdgeWild wrote:

Those AA car check things are great if you dont know much about cars - Around 100 bucks or so I think. Definitely worth it with the amount of dodgy dealers out there.

I was quoted €240 for an AA check. That was with the 10% discount for members. It's definitely worth getting it checked out, but a local mechanic might be better.