So, The Bible... Great book or....

DeVore

Oh god, I'm going to hell for this but I hate to see a good rant die

Burn it or revere it?

I wouldnt burn it I'd just burn all the people who insist on using it to enforce things it wouldnt agree with...

Oh well, part interesting discussion, part troll

DeV The Stirrer

Paladin

So you have come across those people who dont accept evolution? I have. The sh1te! And whats more is these people believe that they are using fact when trying to prove points.
"O but the bible says...."
Me: "ok so why do u not believe it possible for the bible to have been written as a work of fiction?"
Them: "nobody could write such a detailed account. 4 ppl wrote gospels with almost identical events"
Me: "and one bunghole couldnt have written all four himself?"
Them: "No!"
Me: "Why not?"
Them "Because the bible says....."
Me: "gaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghh"


Therefore I say Burn The Fu<king thing.
Maybe the principles of the religion are good. Dont kill, dont steal etc. But face it. For the most part decent ppl are gonna be decent ppl whether they believe in a religion or not.

Actually thinking of it now, its not so much the book that I disagree with, its idiots.
Idiots fu<k this world up. If its not the bible they are believing in, its the daily fu<kin mail. Burn the idiots.

And just to clarify, I mean idiots, not in the low iq sense, but in the "I believe, you must also because it is right" kind of idiot who are the same kind who start holy wars etc.

You are some sh1t stirrer DeV

TwoShedsJackson

Nah, don't burn it, but people need to stop accepting things they're told like sheep. Question authority dudes!!!!!!!

I don't doubt for a moment that a most influential Rabbi by the name of Jesus lived in the Palestine region around 2000 years ago, but what has happpened since is the classic case of the story being distorted as it is passed down through generations. Mainly because the initial few generations would have passed it on orally before a proper written account was made.

Organised religion these days has caused, and continues to cause, much misery and suffering in this world, and I am now of the opinion that the whole concept of the Afterlife is used as a crutch by people who are afraid of dying. I use the example of my then best friend, knocked down and killed in 1990, at the removal, funeral etc. I lost count of how often I heard the saying 'oh, he's in a better place now'. Is he b0llocks.

Shiminay

It's not the book's fault some poeple are the way they are, it's their fault. If you're gonna accept something as strong as Christianity on the strength of a book, so be it. But just because a book says something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true...

Still in all, I wouldn't have it burned, just try and have the emphasis removed from it a bit. There's no doubting it's an incredibly important book to millions (billions?), but isn't there a chance it's fiction - not written in badness, but written to strengthen the faith in it's early years.

BTW, I am a non-believer in it all, so I'm not gonna go to hell for thinking such blasphemous thoughts

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~davitt

LoLth

If people thought of the Bible as a story or parable rather than a record of history (old testament in particular!!) , it would actually be a good book for people to read (though there's a bit f contradiction in the vengeful God, Eye for an Eye, butchering of armies and entire cities and the love thy neighbour, be forgiven by God bits....).

Don't burn the thing, just don't take it too seriously.

DeVore

But its the book that is the catalyst for these people.

What you are saying is the same as the gun lobby people "Guns dont kill people, people kill people".

To which I say "If you hadnt given those 'people' 'guns' in the first place all you would have had was a drive-by fashion criticism!"

"Hey, those shoes dont go with those pants!!" <screech of tyres>.

If we got rid of the book, would religious bigots/fanatics still be able to focus around something?

Has it done more harm then good? My jury is still out on that one....

Tom.

Shiminay

Could be a bit late at this stage to remove the book - it's too well set in. Maybe before the Crusades...

"That tee-shirt's lame foo!"
*car screechs away*

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~davitt

Excelsior

What was that slogan from the 60's?
What if there was a was and no one came?
So continue on...

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

Draco

First off, a link to our previous heated discussion on the bible:
http://www.boards.ie/bulletin/Forum13/HTML/000059.html

Part of my problem with the bible is that people take the wrong meaning from the parables because they do not know anything about the culture of the time. They then see the completely wrong meaning and go off and kill someone thinking they are justified.
Another thing is all the muppets who think that after 2000 years that the New Testament and god knows how many years the Old testemant are exactly the same. Never mind the fact that it has been translated so many times from one language to another. The whole "Gods word cannot be diluted" thing is a big smelly pile of $hite.
And then you have the creationist. These people are scary. I don't know about you, but I was taught evolution and creationism hand in hand. I was also taught not to take things literally, that the bible was a book of metaphors.

Here endth the semon.

Preacher Draco.

Gerry

The Eagle has truly left the barn.

Canaboid

I agree with everyone so far.

Chubby

I thought most irishmen are mindless zombies who bought into the christrianity crap, what's going on? Maybe you guys (gamers) are staying away from tv too much for the subliminal messages to work. Think Cloud should brainwash the lot of yas with that flashing banner at the top of this page .

Manach

A witness for the defence:

1/ People don't need the bible to hate other people it comes quite naturally over the most trivial of differences. In the 20th Century the primary wars were over Economics and Nationalism not theology.


2/ The bible and evolution can co-exist, mostly harmonious. Look at the career of Ft de Chardin in the studies of early human evolution. I myself got my primary degree in Geology.

3/ To believers it is the interpreted word of God, to others accept it just as a history of a wandering desert tribe. No one is yet suggesting we ban the Tain or Beowulf.

4/ Finally. It's all very well to question authority, but might I inquire what body of text one would propose instead to follow.

Is mise
- mindless irish zombie (arrgh grrh geborrah)

_CreeD_

Dev
"But its the book that is the catalyst for these people....
"To which I say "If you hadnt given those 'people' 'guns' in the first place all you would have had was a drive-by fashion criticism!"
"If we got rid of the book, would religious bigots/fanatics still be able to focus around something?"

That's the same argument that's been used to blame movies, or Quake etc. for the various shootings in the states. Blame everything but humanity itself. We are the smoking gun.
Of course the idiots in the world would find something else. It's their job. If it wasn't the bible it would be the Koran (Okay, so it already is for some). Or the works of nostradamus, blah blah blah etc..
Basically anything to
1. Feel superior.
2. Have en excuse to do anything you like, while doing "god's work".
3. Have a gang of like minded folks to back you up.
4. Remove the responsibility of having a mind from you.

It's not the book, it's the people that cling to it.

________________

Manach:
"Finally. It's all very well to question authority, but might I inquire what body of text one would propose instead to follow."

I think the point most people have made is "NONE". You don't follow anyone's guidelines. You develope, and adhere to your own moral code. It shouldn't need to be dictated to you, or given a supernatural endorsement.


[This message has been edited by _CreeD_ (edited 07-04-2000).]

Excelsior

Have you guys ever had bad experiences with christians? beacuse this post is meant to be about the bible and its losing its form again. as you by now are all too well acquainted with, i am a Christian. why would you presume me to be naive or easily led?
why would you be willing to believe me capable of persecution or intolerance on the insidious level you describe?
ignore the religion and look at christianity as a demographic group, A, consisting of a billion ppl, who admitedly are more than likely to be the richest billion ppl on the planet historically. to support the kind of opinions shared here is gross ignorance, and intolerance. its really not worth going into but these are jaded ideas.
if you don't believe in my God, fair enough, i can still be your friend, i won't spit on you, i won't call you Lost. within my belief i am charged with letting you know the truth as i see it. you all know that story. your opinions beyond that are what we term free will. don't hate these ppl for past mistakes or indeed the tiny majority that the international media find it rewarding to portray.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

Draco

I think it is because the Christians who are bigots, and who believe that they and they alone are right are so vocal, that the great mass of christians who are decent poeople are tared with the same brush. When you watch TV and see they complete scumbags say that unless I convert to the worship of the lord *now* I will goto hell. If I don't believe in creationism I am a heritic and will go to hell. If I listen to Marlyin Manson I am a deviant and will goto hell. If I watch Dogma I am morally weak and will goto hell. If I have sex outside of marraige, suprise suprise, I'm going to hell. All of this stems from their belief in a religion that has the bible as its central source of teachings. I do not or will not listen to a thing these people say. Their faith in the 'good' book binds them to everything else. They don't believe in free will. They believe in blindly following dogma, no matter who it hurts.

Draco

Excelsior

By definition Christians have an unerring faith in their God. This faith at it's core is monotheistic- that is there is one God, and that God is the only way to happiness. Fair play to them.
Draco, Catholics believe you go to hell for sins, Christians do not, and knever have believed that you can go to hell for sex outside of marraige, or any other sin. Christians who I am here to represent think only pone thing when they meet marylin manson fans: child of the 90s with a bad taste in music, dogma was an excellent movie that was extremely pro-christian. catholics raised doubts about it, not christians. i am an evolutionist, a pretty excellently informed one at that thank you very much. creationism is a valid belief. you fail to understand it. christians who support it do not intend it to replace science, they know it not to be science. they just have faith. scary word is faith. i dont have faith in the bible. i have faith in jesus. sounds ridiculous doesnt it? this topic saddens me.

kevin doesn't know what to say......

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

Draco

Dang and blast it! I had a nice long post written and then the power dies! Gah! I'm not bother to write it all again, but the gist of it was:
Catholics are not the only christians who believe in hell. Alot of the Protestant sects believe in it too.

creationism is a valid belief...[SNIP]...christians who support it do not intend it to replace science, they know it not to be science.

If this is true, why did I see a christian on TV the other night arguing why evolution is complete balls and should be replaced by creationism?
You are definitly one of the reasonable christianns that 80% are. But there is always that 20% there ready to denounce me, my beliefs and everything I stand for. These are the ones who pound the bible and scream about fire and brimstone. They have faith that the bible is the unadultrated word of god handed down for over 2000 years.

Draco

Canaboid

Words fail me.
Organised religon is the opium of the naive and the lazy.

Talliesin

Well, I'm not a Christian, but the Bible is a great book. I don't believe what it says, but it has some of the greatest pieces of literature ever written; The Revelation of St. John the Devine, Ecclesiastes and The Song of Songs in particular.
Ironically the English translation that has the most power as literature is the KJV, although it is pretty bad as a translation.

DeVore

Excelsior, first of all fair play in explaining your beliefs. I have a lot of admiration for people who voice their beliefs and leave it at that.

Secondly I personally havent had a bad time with Christians, or indeed too many Catholics. I was educated by Jesuits who I admire for their intelligence and ability to teach. A good friend of mine (recently deceased) was a priest and we spent many a night arguing the toss of theology.
On the other hand I've been caught on O'Connell street in riots between two equally scary groups (Socialist Workkers Front and Youth Defence) and had to defend my pastimes in various forms from intolerant attacks.

My real point in bringing this up (and isnt this at least an informed an polite discussion, nary a spiteful word has been written) was to try to get people to think about the power of written manuscripts. Demogogues lose their power when they step off the soapbox but written word has the power to grow beyond its authors vision, and not always for the best....

Tom.

_CreeD_

Okay, Votes in....

Devore for God. Can somebody save this thread, then re-write it 7 or 8 times. It shall be the Holy Tome of Voredom
Remember special emphasis on "I...Burn...All the people" for you budding Pyro Maniacs out there.
(ps. Just so it doesn't come out wrong, that was a JOKE)

Never argue with reasonable people about religion. As Excelsior said it's faith vs. fact. People have usually made up their mind either way by the time you start talking about it.
If you actually win the atheist argument all you've really done is made their lives a bit emptier - with no offense intended the best metaphor would be convincing someone that Santa doesn't exist (Now castor, don't cry , you had to find out sometime) - you proved your point but just took away something special from them.
I did that way too much in College.

[This message has been edited by _CreeD_ (edited 11-04-2000).]

BossArky

As much as I'd like to believe that the Bible is a truely an original writing, I would find it easier to see that it is a collection of Fables, where the true meaning must be taken from the central theme of each particular story rather than the more obvious story that lies on top.

But how are we going to prove anything really??....cos it all happened a long time ago.

Basically it is down to the individual to believe what they want.If you have every been involved in a football supporters argument you may see that it is virtually impossible to push your point of view on to anyone.(My team is better...no mine is...blah blah blha blahba lbaha b blah.)

Well, I think that I've confused myself now so I shall go and hide.

WhiteWashMan

why dont we just go and read the 5th dead sea scroll and see...oh, we cant. the vatican wont let us.

organised religion in itself is not a bad thing, like orgainsed football leagues.
it becomes intolerable when people start to read their own meanings inti things.

the bible...dont confuse what was written with what was meant.
good book. ive read it all. anybody that believes everyword of it is a moron.
everybody that doesnt believe any of it happened id say the same about.
religion. dont talk to me about religion.
i believe in the church of the almighty dollar.

Excelsior

I think it was Kant who said you can't rationalise faith. It's not my job to convert you guys thru the wonder of the infobahn, (yes, I've met people who do believe in attempting converts in chat rooms, something I'm more than a little skeptical about )
but what I know is undoubtedly real.
(full stop, accept it, take that in)

i had a discussion two nights ago with the cleverest christian i know. we were talking about something i have perceived in the dublin christian community, which is the F**K OFF I'm right attitude.
it sickens me, but i can honestly say that only two of my peers suffer from it. but non-christians, be they atheists, agnostics, or that peculiar group of people known as young irish catholics, suffer from it in abundance. you guys are all fine in your opinions. they are hunky dorey by me, but remember please from now on that christians are a group who arent here to condemn you for having sex or any other healthy activity, they arent here to force evolution out of schools, we are just normal people who are pre-disposed to a certain, as some of you see it, madness, you might even say chosen for this madness. but we make your world a better place. and christian women are the best looking in dublin. and we have the best fashion taste and we know where to get the best coffee and we really know how to rock. okay?
so cut us some slack, maybe even defend us the way you'd defend someone who is suffering from a racist attack next time someone rants unintelligibly about our viable little idea that the evolution of the brain and the northward movement of the tail bone forcing our derriere's up with it and the huge enlargement of the hyperglossal gland to allow language thru control of the tongue (told you i was an evolutionist) didnt happen by accident.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

SheroN

I went in search of god...found him...looked into his eyes and saw me.

Paladin

Then I winked

Coyote

I think what people need to do is let everyone believe in what that want to believe in. What cause the most problems are other people trying to enforce their beliefs on other people. Neither science nor the Bible should be taken without question.
“He who has not sinned may cast the first stone”
Coyote

Shinji

Someone made the point earlier that the wars of the last century were fought on economical and political grounds rather than religious grounds.

Throughout history, no wars have really been fought for religion. The people at the top know the score; they send their armies out in order to gain money, power and so on. From the Gulf War, back through the Second World War, right back to the Crusades and the armies of the Roman Empire, this has been the case; religion doesn't motivate the top men.

But the top men all copped on pretty quickly that religion makes a damned good motivator for the rank and file that they are sending out to die. The romans took it furthest, with the emperors altering the basis of faith in order to accomodate the belief that they, personally, were gods, but right through the ages, men have fought and died in the firm belief that god was on their side, while the politicians and dictators who sent them out egged them on to their deaths by using religion as a whip.

As a collection of fables, the Bible tells some great stories and has some good morals. It's not the book that is at fault, it's those who interpret it, and the same goes for every organised religion on the planet.

Ja,
Rob

Gamblor

Originally posted by Canaboid:
Words fail me.
Organised religon is the opium of the naive and the lazy.

I disagree .. we all need to belive in something, I belive in my own abilitys i also believe there is a god , don't know what or whot he/she is , My mother is very religous, and she tried forcing it on me and my brothers well i can speak for myself in this part. that why i don't go to mass regular, plus i was an altar boy for a couple of years, hearing the same gospel said over and over does get boring, anyone foricing there view on you is wrong i belive in this god person but i have my own ideas and i may change these but i'll do so on my own ( remindes me of a debate that i was in in school. is there such a thing as free will ??? ) i said there was but to an extent.
anyway back to the subject at hand. Don't burn it, and don't taint everyone with the same brush, but if someone anoys you tell them and leave it as that !!

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***** Feel my Evil Neon Claws *****

SheroN

All worship me and my dark god......

Paladin

me?

pox

its a tribute to this community that
this topic and subsequent discussion
has a low frothing content.

Paladin

A bit like heinekin then? YEUUUUCH TO ALCAHOL!! KEEP IT AWAY AND ALL ITS EVIL!!!
Whats that?
Ok then, just one for the road.

WhiteWashMan

YER ALL GAEY

thought id lower the tone to the quake board

Paladin

fag? <

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quake board comment
Nah. <

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non quake board reply
I dont smoke. <

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must not play quake at all!

Shiminay

But I don't smoke...that must be why I suck!

/me rushes out to buy 20 Jonny Blues

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~davitt