Merrion Wednesday Tourney

AmarilloFats

Blinds are 300 600
Folded to me in the small Blind 10 7 Clubs
I call ..I have about 15000
Big blind knocks ( Has me covered)

Flop A 8 2 ...with 2 Clubs

I bet 1000

He Min Raises 2000

I consider reraising....I call

Turn brings red 6...
Giving me a gutshot and flush draw..


Whats your move.....

Shortstack

Depends on what your read on him here is. You need to be careful that he doesn't have a higher flush draw. He may have the bare A which still puts him ahead and only gives you 11 outs. Just over a 3:1 shot. Do you want to risk all your chips on drawing to what is no where near the nuts? Similar hand developed in the 100 game at the Fitz on Monday and I went with the all in semi bluff and missed, opponent had flopped a set. His betting pattern was similar to what you describe. I had made a mistake here as I knew he likely had a set from previous experience.

mewso

Assuming he bets I fold. If you are asking what I would do immediately after your story ends I would check Do I sense an all-in story here?

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

Assuming he bets I fold. If you are asking what I would do immediately after your story ends I would check Do I sense an all-in story here?

Well theres 5200 in the pot, so unless he bets more than half the pot you cant really fold.

Hectorjelly

Shortstack wrote:

Depends on what your read on him here is. You need to be careful that he doesn't have a higher flush draw. He may have the bare A which still puts him ahead and only gives you 11 outs. Just over a 3:1 shot. Do you want to risk all your chips on drawing to what is no where near the nuts? Similar hand developed in the 100 game at the Fitz on Monday and I went with the all in semi bluff and missed, opponent had flopped a set. His betting pattern was similar to what you describe. I had made a mistake here as I knew he likely had a set from previous experience.

The villain of the piece is very unlikely to have a flush draw, nobody would min raise back with just a flush draw there, as they dont want to create a situation in which they are priced out of the pot.

AmarilloFats

well...
the red 6 gives me 13outs...any club or 9
Min bets smell of sets..
So there is 5000 in pot..
I checked the turn..
He bets 2000..My god… how small..I call again..(Jesus I played this poorly)
River brings 10 spades
I check.
He bets 2000 again..
I fold
He shows A9


He said he would have folded to all in…But his bets were of the size that I suspected a set…Also of the size that I felt like I had odds to call!????????

Still not sure how to play it…Larger bet on flop???
All in on the Turn?????
Fold Turn (getting ~3.5:1 on turn)

What think ye?

Hyzepher

The real skill in these types of situations is to try and understand your opponents level of thought. A lot of the time your thought process is based on an opponent that thinks like you and therefore plays/bets like you. More often than not most players don't think that way and it is very hard to try and read them.

This is where constant focus on the game and in particular the way the other players have played previous hands can really benefit you.

Just be aware that most players don't analyse a hand the way you think they should

Hyzepher

Hectorjelly

AmarilloFats wrote:

Blinds are 300 600
Folded to me in the small Blind 10 7 Clubs
I call ..I have about 15000
Big blind knocks ( Has me covered)

Flop A 8 2 ...with 2 Clubs

I bet 1000

He Min Raises 2000

I consider reraising....I call

Turn brings red 6...
Giving me a gutshot and flush draw..


Whats your move.....

It depends on a few things, firstly what is your opponent like? Can he make big laydowns? Some players will never lay down an Ace in this situation, so theres no point in semi bluffing. Also, whats your image so far. If you have been very tight so far, laying down good hands, Id be more inclined to make a big raise here.

The gutshot draw is important, because allthough its a long shot, your opponent is not going to be put off by a 9, you might well win a big pot, whereas if a club falls the action might dry up.

If you check here, you can try and pick something up from his bet. I would be inclined to just flat call a small bet (1 or 2k) and either check raise all in or fold to anything bigger.

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

Well theres 5200 in the pot, so unless he bets more than half the pot you cant really fold.

IMHO If you trust your read and in this case you have a sizeable stack you can easily fold. It's not all about whats in the pot. It's about how big your stack is. I'm not going to chase a 4-1 shot when my stack is a comfortable size.

For an example of some really bad play then read my latest article on sa.com. I was second largest stack on my table and went out to the largest. Still kicking myself.

Shortstack

AmarilloFats wrote:

well...
the red 6 gives me 13outs...any club or 9
Min bets smell of sets..
So there is 5000 in pot..
I checked the turn..
He bets 2000..My god… how small..I call again..(Jesus I played this poorly)
River brings 10 spades
I check.
He bets 2000 again..
I fold
He shows A9


He said he would have folded to all in…But his bets were of the size that I suspected a set…Also of the size that I felt like I had odds to call!????????

Still not sure how to play it…Larger bet on flop???
All in on the Turn?????
Fold Turn (getting ~3.5:1 on turn)

What think ye?

You are counting the 9 of spades twice in your outs. Pot odds are only of much use in cash games or rebuy stages of a tournie. A much better way is to use the percentage of your stack to what you can win. In this case you are putting all your stack in against one player so including blinds you are getting just over evens on the hand yet you are drawing to a max 12 outs. Once you miss your flush on the turn you should be out of hand if he bets. Can't blame you for the play, have done it myself on more than one occasion!

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

IMHO If you trust your read and in this case you have a sizeable stack you can easily fold. It's not all about whats in the pot. It's about how big your stack is. I'm not going to chase a 4-1 shot when my stack is a comfortable size.

For an example of some really bad play then read my latest article on sa.com. I was second largest stack on my table and went out to the largest. Still kicking myself.

The opponent bet 2000 into a T5200 pot, so you need to call 2000 to win a 9200 pot, when you will win 1/3 of the time. If you fold here you are literally giving away chips, and he will still be left with 11k if he calls and misses so the size of his stack isnt that relevant.

Hectorjelly

Shortstack wrote:

You are counting the 9 of spades twice in your outs. Pot odds are only of much use in cash games or rebuy stages of a tournie. A much better way is to use the percentage of your stack to what you can win. In this case you are putting all your stack in against one player so including blinds you are getting just over evens on the hand yet you are drawing to a max 12 outs. Once you miss your flush on the turn you should be out of hand if he bets. Can't blame you for the play, have done it myself on more than one occasion!

Pot odds are just as important in a tournament as in a cash game, there are a few times where you might pass up slightly positive EV situations, but saying you should ignore pot odds is madness. Once you miss you flush on you turn and you opponent prices you in, you are making a mistake by folding.

henbane

Hectorjelly wrote:

The opponent bet 2000 into a T5200 pot, so you need to call 2000 to win a 9200 pot, when you will win 1/3 of the time. If you fold here you are literally giving away chips, and he will still be left with 11k if he calls and misses so the size of his stack isnt that relevant.

What hector said. There's not a huge amount wrong with the play here. You still had a healthy stack relative to the blinds and the pot was significant enough to take the risk. Pot odds are less of an aid in tournament poker but they do give a decent indication of when you should me making a call if you take other factors into account. Don't out-think yourself - every lost pot is not due to a bad decision.

The issue here is your read. You read him for a set when you could have pushed him off the pot with a move on the turn. As hyzepher said it's about paying attention to what's gone on at the table not assuming your opponent would play x hand the same way you would.

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

The opponent bet 2000 into a T5200 pot, so you need to call 2000 to win a 9200 pot, when you will win 1/3 of the time. If you fold here you are literally giving away chips, and he will still be left with 11k if he calls and misses so the size of his stack isnt that relevant.

Good old pot odds and tournaments. I don't ignore them I just think they have to be taken into account with more factors. Stack size, how the bet affects your stack etc. I may have miscalculated but I had 12 outs with one card to come as a 4-1 shot approx. not 3-1. You dont have the benefit of a calculator at the table so I use the rough method 12*2%=24% chance of hitting your out.
I'll also reiterate if you have your opponent on a set with one card to come at a 24% chance of hitting a better hand you may well be saving chips not giving them away.

DeVore

I tend to over use pot odds in tournies a bit though I've resisted it lately. However I agree with Hector that they are useful in tournies at all stages.

Its not just about the tournie in question, if you are consistently putting down +ev hands then in the long run you are throwing away chips.

Pot odds recede in usefulness the smaller your stack is (and vice versa). There is another time when they are useful too and thats when an opponent moves all in and you have a reasonable draw (say a nut flush draw with 2 cards to come).

Firstly you have to consider your stack size and where you will be when you (likely!) miss the flush draw. Secondly (and just as importantly) where will you be if you win? How much more likely is it that you will win the tournie from that point? If you were massive chip leader and a fairly big chip stack has gone all in, then even if you HAVE the odds to call and draw, you should maybe think about not doing so... the extra chips dont increase your chances all that much and the hit may be the start of a lethal slide!

That said, once your opponent has offered you an all in *and* you are sure you are drawing to the best hand AND your stack is good, then you just do the maths.

I also use them as a sanity check. ie: am I nuts to make this call? Is it worth me sticking around to hit?

HJ's comment on stealth hits is very true too. Given the aggression of Irish players, cards that make your hand and arent obvious scare cards pay off big time! Stealth trips for example, those pocket 22's you might throw away utg can be worth the limp because when the flop comes AK2, trust me, noone thinks you might have 22 and AQ, AK and a few other hands will pay you handsomely. Not to mention if there is a flush on board and the flush hits but pairs the board as well... cha-ching!

DeV.

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

Good old pot odds and tournaments. I don't ignore them I just think they have to be taken into account with more factors. Stack size, how the bet affects your stack etc. I may have miscalculated but I had 12 outs with one card to come as a 4-1 shot approx. not 3-1. You dont have the benefit of a calculator at the table so I use the rough method 12*2%=24% chance of hitting your out.
I'll also reiterate if you have your opponent on a set with one card to come at a 24% chance of hitting a better hand you may well be saving chips not giving them away.

Its 29.7%, and if you have your opponent on a set the implied odds rise as well.

AmarilloFats

Cheers for insight.
I suppose after calling preflop, then calling flop raise, then the turn bet and folding on the river....One feels rather sheepish..

Here's another from last night!!! Feel free to reply or ignore if your sick off my amateur play...

Early in tournament..playing a little loose Agg…since allowed 4rebuys
KQ spades ..Mid position… blinds 25 50 I have about 900
Villain has about 1200

Early player limps
I raise to 200
Cut-off calls…. Everyone else folds

Flop 8 6 2 …. Rainbow.. Not my dream flop

I bet 350

Villain thinks for an age and calls…. He seems good solid player…Asian guy

Turn comes A …..can’t remember suit..

Your move!!!!!!!!!

mewso

I'll try again and let everyone disagree with me again. I check and fold if he bets. I've nothing and nothing to draw to.

gerire

agree with muso, it is a little known fact that putting chips into pots like this can hurt your stack...

AmarilloFats

Yeah I thought for a while..Then dramatically checked…and checked river he took it down with 56.

I was out of position. Felt the Ace was a good card for me. Did I let my opportunity pass????

If I had position I would have taken It down with a bet on the turn.

BTW. I did play some good poker last night honest.

Thanks again

bohsman

Im all in on the turn, you raised preflop the Ace should scare him out of the hand since you raised preflop

DeVore

You raised. He calls your 350 bet with something (either a draw or a part hit on the flop). You've represented the high cards both times. If you are going to put 350 into the pot on the flop, you needed to be willing to pull the trigger a second and maybe a final third time too.
I'm not saying that this is what i would have done (though probably it is) but if you are going to play loose aggressive because of the rebuys, then dont be afraid to stick them all in! I can guarantee that if you had put them all in on the turn he'd muck faster then Superman on Muck For The Kids day.
A lot of it depends on your read on him. He SHOULD be thinking you have a made hand or AK,AQ given the way you are firing so you might even take him off a big hand after the flop or a made pair after the turn.

I'd either have checked the flop and wussed out of the hand entirely looking for a free card to hit or else I'd have put it all in on the flop or made a decent raise then all in on the turn.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

AmarilloFats wrote:

Yeah I thought for a while..Then dramatically checked…and checked river he took it down with 56.

I was out of position. Felt the Ace was a good card for me. Did I let my opportunity pass????

If I had position I would have taken It down with a bet on the turn.

BTW. I did play some good poker last night honest.

Thanks again

This hand would of been much easier if you were in position, which is why its much better to not raise with marginal hands out of position. Also, BET the Ace!!! When you raise preflop people put you either on AK/Q or a pocket pair. All of these hands are beating him.

DeVore

Conversely bluffing out of position is much better! Get that raise in early and the all in on the flop before anyone else can

I played one night with LaFortezza on my right and under the gun raised with K4 off.
7 callers!! Oh Oh... Flop comes fairly raggy and I go all in (both blinds had folded).
One by one they all folded and left me a nice pot early in the tournie (almost doubled through!). I was feeling very smug (or, more smug then usual) when LaFortezza says "You had NONE of that" and I flashed him my cards to rub it in his face... until someone down the end called to see them and my attempt to show them and quickly muck them was thwarted by the dealer (Marq, I think) who proudly displayed them to all.... the amount of ruminating around the table made it sound like a cattle shed

They dont call it the Irish Position for nothing!

DeV.