No Importation Cert Required !!!

Mech1

What Do You All Make Of This NRPAI Email?

Is It What it Appears To Be?

Any Comments?

Mech1

Apoligies in advance to the author of the Email this was the only format I could quickly post.
Original mail includes all relevant acts and is much better presented.

Irishglockfan

Well, from where I am sitting it corrospondens to
exactly what everyone has said here about personal imports.
Cert from the gardai,
Eu firearms passport.[if in EU]
Go get it.

Seems to be the dealers that are having the problem with the DOJ.Which seems to be as uncoperative and /or not knowing what they want to do or have a policy in place to deal with it.

To authenticate this,would suggest ringing DK to verify this.

Slug chucker

Looks good for an N.Ireland purchase if you get the Southern licence apply for a section 7 and Euro pass. Look for a Temp pass from PSNI using your licence. Bang bang

Sparks

There's a parlimentary question on this matter due to come up in the Dail later today, as detailed elsewhere in this forum. It's on page 27 of the Parlimentary Questions list and it's being asked by Trevor Sargent.

*303. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the current policy of
his Department with regard to the granting of importation licences under section 17 of
the Firearms Act 1925; the way in which many such importation licences have been applied
for since July 2004; and if these importation licences are required for individuals who have
been issued with firearms certificates by An Gardaı´ Sı´ocha´ na, in view of section 21 of the
Firearms Act 1964. — Trevor Sargent. [26291/04]

That's slightly different from the question as originally asked:

Will the Minister comment on the current policy of his department with regard to the granting of importation licences under Section 17 of the 1925 Firearms Act; on how many such importation licences have been applied for since July of this year; and on whether these importation licences are required for individuals who have been issued with firearms certificates by An Gardai Siochana, in light of Section 21 of the 1964 Firearms Act?

But it should still get the answer we need.

And as Declan points out in that email, it's his personal opinion, not a legal opinion. I'd hold off on importing anything for a few hours to see what that PQ turns up. I'll post up the response as soon as it comes in.

civdef

What exactly is a Section 7? Never came across this before.

gouda

civdef wrote:

What exactly is a Section 7? Never came across this before.

As far as I can recall,a Section 7 authority relates to purchasing a firerarm in another EU state. I think that in the UK,the DTI still require an export licence to be issued by them but my info is that they will not issue an export licence without a corresponding import licence from the receiving state ( in our case DoJ). I have tried to check this but found it almost impossible as I was bounced from Police,to DTI,to Customs and back again. I finally stopped trying as the info was conflicting. Home Office Guidelines to Police is on the web but it is heavy going and it's only guidelines so the Police do not have to adhere to anything in it. Depends on the local Police Inspector's interpretation.

Sparks

Depends on the local Police Inspector's interpretation.

Sounds unpleasantly familiar

Sparks

The answer from that PQ came back:

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell):
Section 17 of the Firearms Act 1925 deals with restrictions on the import of firearms, prohibited weapons and ammunition. My Department considers all applications for importation licences under section 17 on a case by case basis. Since July 2004, there have been 12 applications for importation licences under that section.

Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1964 states: "The restriction imposed by
section 17 of the Principal [1925] Act on the importation in to the State of
firearms shall not apply in relation to the importation of a firearm by the holders of a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm which is in force". I am advised that this section does not apply to prohibited weapons or ammunition.

It should be noted that the terms of the European Council Directive 91/477/EEC, as transposed by the European Communities (Acquisition and Possession of Weapons and Ammunition) Regulations 1993, apply to all
transfers of firearms and ammunition between member states. Section 6(1) of those regulations require the prior consent of the competent authorities in member states to the transfer.

Okay, so the first part is rather interesting. Only 12 applications?

The second part confirms that for anything we're shooting with, section 17 does not apply if we have a firearms certificate. Prohibited weapons are defined in the 1925 Act and are pretty much flamethrowers and the like:

the expression "prohibited weapon" means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon as aforesaid or for any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing;

The third part is the catch, the relevant SI is here and the relevant bit reads:

6. (1) A person from another Member State shall not transfer or attempt to transfer a firearm or ammunition to the State except with the prior consent of the Minister and without having obtained a licence for the transfer from the competent authority of that Member State.

In short, someone from outside the state can't send you the firearm.
Doesn't look like it prevents an Irish person with a firearm on an FAC in the North (and a certificate for it down here) from bringing it here though. Mind you, the first person will probably get a fair amount of hassle...

civdef

Of course that last would not apply to imports from outside the EU...

Sparks

Hmm. True Civ - and aren't IZH based outside the EU? And Hammerli?

Sparks

So I guess the question now becomes, who's going to be the first to do this?

1911

Sparks wrote:

So I guess the question now becomes, who's going to be the first to do this?

Been there and done it
and have the t-shirt

Sparks

That was fast enough to qualify as "brave" 1911 What did you get?

Gun Shy

Could anyone fill me in on what a Section 7 is.
Is this a NI requirement or a ROI requirement.

Irishglockfan

In answer to IZH and Hammerli are both outside the EU gunmakers.Hammerli is Swiss and IZH is Russian.OK has anyone done a US import?Or am I going solo?

gouda

Gun Shy wrote:

Could anyone fill me in on what a Section 7 is.
Is this a NI requirement or a ROI requirement.

Section 7 Authority is granted by your local Super,it is an EU requirement. Section 7 Authority allows you to purchase certain classes of firearm in other EU States. You still need to fulfil the other EU States conditions which vary from country to country.

Sparks

And if you have a firearms certificate Gun Shy, then you're entitled to the article 7 permission, it's covered in that SI listed above. The specific bit is article 9, slightly confusingly - the reason for the number difference is that the original EU directive is the 91/477/EEC one that Minister McDowell mentions in the answer to the PQ above, but that was then given effect in Irish law by the European Communities (Acquisition and Possession of Weapons and Ammunition) Regulations, 1993, where it's covered in article 9.

The relevant bit in the Irish SI is Article 9, section 2(a) and reads:

(2) (a) Where a person is granted, or is the holder of, a firearm certificate under the Firearms Acts, he shall be entitled to be issued by the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána for the district in which he resides with—
(i) a European Firearms Pass containing the required particulars; and
(ii) a document stating that the holder of the firearm certificate has the consent of the competent authority of the State, for so long as the certificate remains in force, to any purchase or acquisition by him in another Member State of any firearm or ammunition to which the certificate relates; and an application for the issue of a document falling within clause (i) or (ii) may be made at the same time as an application for a firearm certificate or at any time subsequently while the certificate remains in force.

Note that because it says you're entitled to it, if you have the cert, you get the permission, full stop (as opposed to some other legal bits in the firearms acts where they say that someone "may" be granted something).

civdef

How does one go about getting a temporary cert in the North? That seems to be the last remaining step to importing a firearm from there now.

Sparks

It's a pretty standard thing at the moment civdef - at least it was in september, which was when I last did it. You fill out a form, post it to the PSNI and you get back the temporary cert inside three weeks (though the legal limit is two months, IIRC). The form's on the net here. It's free so long as it's only for one month.

Note that I've seen comments on the Firearms Act 2004 (for N.Ireland) that say that it implies that this process is now going to get more complicated; I'm not sure what the story is there, I've not had a chance to actually review it myself.

Renegade_Archer

AFAIK IZH dont sell directly, at least they wouldnt sell me an IZH-46M directly when I was Germany, instead they have a number of distributers. There is a German distributer, but he wants 500eur(!) for the gun, whilst the american carriers(basically anyone, do a google, pryamidair etc) will sell it for <300USD.