2 Cash game hands

Hectorjelly

I played two interesting hands last night, they're both online $1 $2 no limit on VC. Same opponent in both cases. I have never played against this guy before, and I wasnt paying a lot of attention to the hands before. Ill leave my thinking out (bar preflop) and see what you guys think. All feedback/comments welcome.

We both start off with around $200.

I limp in in the cuttoff with A7 of spades, and the button makes it $10. Hes a fairly tight good player, he's raising here with Jacks or better. With a hand like this if Im in good position relative to the raiser, there are a few callers and we both have big stacks I'll tag along too. Two people call so I do as well.

Flop ($40) is 5 6 9 with two spades.

Big Blind Checks, and utg + 1 leads out for $20

I make it $120

Preflop Raiser thinks for a long while and folds

Big Blind Folds

Utg + 1 thinks for a while and calls.

Turn is a 4 of hearts, now giving me a openended straight draw. (280 in the pot). He checks and I push all in for another $50 odd. He thinks again and calls with 9 10.

River is a 3 giving me the straight.


A few hands later the same opponent (he rebuys for another $200) makes it $10 to go from the Big Blind. I call utg with 88. Three other callers and the flop comes up 2 7 8 rainbow.

He bets out $30 into the $40 pot. I make it $100 and he calls. Next card is an ace. He checks and I push all in (for about 300, he only has another 50/60). He calls with JJ.

DeVore

I dont think I'd have bet $120 with an inside straight draw and a flush draw...?
I'd have called the 20 (reluctantly) and hoped to hit something. You have outs of:

An Ace, hoping he doesnt have one too with a better kicker... (3)
Any spade (9 in total)
An 8 for the inside straight. (3, one is accounted for in the spades)

You also have a Runner Runner draw (which is what you get in the end!) but the odds are so low I dont generally include them in any calcs I make.
I'd take one Ace away for the BB raise. and to be honest I'd hardly be wild about considering any of them as outs. You could easily be facing stealth-trips or less likely AK.

I presume you were considering the folding equity of the bet, in which case its a high risk strategy but it makes sense as it pushes you past the 50/50 mark but I have my doubts about pushing in big bets with what is essentially a flush draw!
(Arent you the one who said, rightly, that A6 is a "drop it" hand in any position? Why A7 suited then?)

Not that I can talk, I tried to bluff Vernon off a hand with A7 last night but I was aware I was totally "at it". I'm still shocked that he called as I've pushed Vernon off stuff before as he considers me a rock but even still his call was as mad as my bluff!

(Worked out for me in the end when I got some ungodly luck in the cash game and left 240 euros up! I'd have had to come 4th in the tournie to do better!)

DeV.

DeVore

ps: the second hand is sheer bad play from him. He bets, you go over the top, an ace falls and you go all in, how many scares does it take for him to fall out of love with his jacks!?

DeV.

Shortstack

Don't think many people would have played your first hand any different. Have no idea why he was calling on the first hand, you could have an overpair, a made straight, 9 with better kicker. Not many people would call your bet without a set. That said, he correctly put you on a flush draw ( I haven't run the odds here ) and would have slight edge if so. Must have followed it through 'til the end when no spades came. So can't really fault his play either based on his assumed read - he was just unlucky you had the 7! seven spades, four eights. four three's and three Aces you were still less than evens after the turn. Only the amount of times others will fold makes this a good play.

Not sure why he didn't reraise you on the second hand, if I didn't put you on set i would want to make sure you I got as many of your chips if you missed your draw. Your reraise would have made a good player think you were bluffing or on A8. I think this what made him call. well played on that one if thats what you intended.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

I dont think I'd have bet $120 with an inside straight draw and a flush draw...?
I'd have called the 20 (reluctantly) and hoped to hit something. You have outs of:

An Ace, hoping he doesnt have one too with a better kicker... (3)
Any spade (9 in total)
An 8 for the inside straight. (3, one is accounted for in the spades)

On the flop Im actually ahead of KK

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=576252
pokenum -h ac 7c - kh kd -- 5c 6c 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6c 5c 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 542 54.75 439 44.34 9 0.91 0.552
Kd Kh 439 44.34 542 54.75 9 0.91 0.448

And only a small bit behind AA

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=576254
pokenum -h ac 7c - ah ad -- 5c 6c 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6c 5c 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 462 46.67 519 52.42 9 0.91 0.471
Ad Ah 519 52.42 462 46.67 9 0.91 0.529

So Im ahead of all one pair hands, bar AA, but if I call and miss the turn I cant call a big bet. I dont consider this to be a bluff, since I am more likely to win the hand than my opponent, as long as they dont have a set.

In the actual hand I was ahead:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=576256
pokenum -h ac 7c - ts 9s -- 5c 6c 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6c 5c 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 536 54.14 454 45.86 0 0.00 0.541
Ts 9s 454 45.86 536 54.14 0 0.00 0.459

If I just call the 20 and a blank falls:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=576257
pokenum -h ac 7c - ts 9s -- 5c 6c 9d 2h
Holdem Hi: 44 enumerated boards containing 6c 5c 9d 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 15 34.09 29 65.91 0 0.00 0.341
Ts 9s 29 65.91 15 34.09 0 0.00 0.659

Ill win about 1/3 of the time. So if my opponent bets big enough he can push me off the hand, also as Marq I think mentioned before, I might well not get paid off If a scare card hits the river.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

(Arent you the one who said, rightly, that A6 is a "drop it" hand in any position? Why A7 suited then?)

Axs is a good hand if you have big stacks and people who will pay you off with not nut flushes. You are playing it only for the flush value, so you need stacks well in excess of 50 big blinds in each stack to make it profitable in the long run. It makes no difference what your x is, allthough the hand is better once you get past 10.

Its a tricky hand to play, and very easy to make mistakes doing so; if you start doing any of the following then the hand will cost you money:

calling in early position
calling a single raiser
calling out of position (relative to the raiser)

Hectorjelly

Shortstack wrote:

Must have followed it through 'til the end when no spades came. So can't really fault his play either based on his assumed read - he was just unlucky you had the 7! seven spades, four eights. four three's and three Aces you were still less than evens after the turn. Only the amount of times others will fold makes this a good play.

Not sure why he didn't reraise you on the second hand, if I didn't put you on set i would want to make sure you I got as many of your chips if you missed your draw. Your reraise would have made a good player think you were bluffing or on A8. I think this what made him call. well played on that one if thats what you intended.

I am ahead on the flop unless he has a set, so if you include the times he folds it makes it a wildly + EV move, rather than a slight one.

I played the second hand that way because I knew he wouldnt drop his overpair to me, also I wanted it to look as similar as possible. He didnt reraise me because he's your typical loose passive player.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

You also have a Runner Runner draw (which is what you get in the end!) but the odds are so low I dont generally include them in any calcs I make.
I'd take one Ace away for the BB raise. and to be honest I'd hardly be wild about considering any of them as outs. You could easily be facing stealth-trips or less likely AK.

Its a really bad idea to start guessing what cards might of been in your opponents hands, (Ie dont include an ace), its too complicated, you have to include the fact that you would expect 1/15th (almost) of all cards held by your opponents to be Aces, and adjust for that.

If Im against AK then my A isnt an out, but my 7 is, so it doesnt make much difference. Im miles ahead of AK.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=576277
pokenum -h ac 7c - as ks -- 5c 6c 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6c 5c 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 549 55.45 411 41.52 30 3.03 0.570
As Ks 411 41.52 549 55.45 30 3.03 0.430

DeVore

Hmm, I thought you were slightly behind but not by much, the folding equity makes the play sound as you point out. In a cash game thats fine, I'm coming at it from tournie play which is different (still have to make that transition in my head...).

Do you use calculators when playing online or "head-maths" ?

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

Hmm, I thought you were slightly behind but not by much, the folding equity makes the play sound as you point out. In a cash game thats fine, I'm coming at it from tournie play which is different (still have to make that transition in my head...).

Do you use calculators when playing online or "head-maths" ?

DeV.

In a tournament you have to get all your chips into the pot on the flop as quicky as possible, you cant go round folding favourites, but this is an odd situation as allthough your ahead, you have a 40% odd chance of ending with A high! I would nearly allways raise all in on a flop like this, (unless our stacks were very big). The only difference I see is that I might not call all in on a flop like this in a tournament.

I dont use a calculator online (of offline), most of the maths is very easy once youve been through it a few times. . I take a copy of any interesting hand histories and use two dimes.

AmarilloFats

First hand I would have bet less on the flop. Why? Well against most opponents you would get the information you want for $70 - $90.


Second hand..barring in mind you have imperical proof that your opponent is clueless I think you played it perfectly.

A question: If you had played the second hand first, ie saw him fall in love with his Jacks. Would you have played your flush and gutshot the asme....in the knowledge that you had little fold equity?????????

Cheers

Hectorjelly

AmarilloFats wrote:

First hand I would have bet less on the flop. Why? Well against most opponents you would get the information you want for $70 - $90.


Second hand..barring in mind you have imperical proof that your opponent is clueless I think you played it perfectly.

A question: If you had played the second hand first, ie saw him fall in love with his Jacks. Would you have played your flush and gutshot the asme....in the knowledge that you had little fold equity?????????

Cheers

My plan for the first hand was to check raise the original raiser all in, but the villains bet of $20 ruined that plan. My bet was so big to serve two purposes; a) to let the preflop raiser know that if he played this hand it was going to be for all his chips, and b) so that I was so pot committed I was going all in on the turn no matter what came up.
Thats why I overbet the pot so much. This would of been a much harder pot to play if my stack had of been larger.

Very good question, but perhaps he would of been more likely to fold without seeing the semibluff?