More Questions ...

stevenmu

After seeing the other thread, Genuine Questions: , I must say it's nice to find some Christians who are nice enough to answer peoples genuine questions about the religion. I've been persecuted for asking questions like this before but I asure you all that they are genuine and I hope to learn something from the answers to them.

1) When the bible says that God created man in his own image, that implies that God has two arms, two legs, two eyes, a nose etc. To me this seems kind of strange, why would God have arms and legs, what is he going to carry, where is he going to walk to, why have eyes if he can see everything, whey see anything if he's omnipotent ? Is this a big part of peoples faith or is it just there to hold creationism together ?

2) Jesus called himself the son of God. He also said that we are all Gods children. Why is the first statment taken literally whereas the second is always taken more as a symbolic gesture ? It seems to me that Jesus himself said that we are all equal to him in everyway and yet every form of Christianity elevates him to a higher, more divine level than the rest of mankind.

3) Now for the biggie... If God is as loving, caring and benevolant as the New Testament would have us believe, why create the Earth and put mankind on it ? Why not just keep us all in Heaven in the first place ?


I realise there's no definitive answers for these but I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

neuro-praxis

Welcome to the land of angry debates, stevenmu. I'm going to take a risk and pop in here with some replies, but unfortunately I'll never be in front of a computer long enough to go back and forth a la Excelsior and Syke for hours/days on end. Sadly, evil things like study, friends and sleep keep interrupting. :eek:

Question 1:

The verse in question:

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

I think that there's a twofold response to this. I haven't studied theology formally, but I'll give it a whack.

First bit - "in His own image":

This simply grants the ingenuinity of the creation of mankind to God. By this, I mean that the "image" of man...the idea of man...was created by God.

Second bit - "in the image of God He...created them":

Although we are told in the bible that when we die we will have "bodies of a kind", it is commonly thought that the term "in the image of God" means not "look like Him" but "with the potential to be like Him". (I think Stewie Griffin put it best when he said "Omnipotence! Got to get me some of that!")

The potential to be like Him sadly doesn't mean we can be gods ourselves. It means instead that within us we have the capacity for deep intelligence, compassion, goodness, love and so on.

We see a subtle difference in the use of language here. I mean, it's possible that God has arms and legs and a gall bladder, but well, it ain't such a convincing idea, as you pointed out yourself.

Question 2

I hear your question and it makes sense if where Jesus calls Himself the Son of God is removed from its textual context. You see, that isn't all that he refers to Himself as. He calls Himself "the Messiah" and "the Christ" (in Hebrew these words means the Aointed One...making these claims was ultimately what led to His crucifixion). More obscurely, He calls Himself "the bread of life", "the well that does not run dry", "living water", "the way, the truth and the light", "the only way to the Father", "the light of the world" and then also refers to Himself in less direct ways, through parables, as God and the Saviour of the world.

It is a common misconception that He does not regard himself as God. I recommend getting hold of a copy of the NT and reading the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John...and making up your mind for yourself. They don't take long to read.

Question 3

Well, stevenmu, this is more of a philosophical question than a biblical one. I have no idea, really. We coyuld discuss this one for hours. Actually we could discuss any of these for hours. I believe that God created us to love Him freely. We aren't robots and we have great minds. So we were created to enjoy the earth and to enjoy our capacities for relationships and love and art and music and all that good stuff...and to be in communion with our creator. If we are like God, and we like company...then maybe God likes company too.

These answers are all from a faith perspective. Hope I've made some sense.

stevenmu

Thanks for your answers neuro-praxis. I can see from your answer of Q1 that maybe I took things a bit too literally. Your explanation kind of fit's in with the way I'd think about it.

As for the second question, I'll have to read the NT some more like you suggested. I'm still inclined to think though that Jesus was just like the rest of us, just more enlightened. Similar to the way Buddhists don't worship Buddha as anything better than the rest of us, they more praise him as someone more enlightened and respect him as a teacher. I feel he was trying to lead people towards an idea that was somewhat different to how people have interpreted it, and was too far removed from the OT for him to just come right out and say it so he had to work almost within the framework of the OT. I'll have to read back through the gospels for evidence of this though

neuro-praxis

Glad to oblige.

If you want an online version of the bible, Bible Gateway is a good reference site.



God those smileys look gormless.

Canis Lupus

Seeing as its questions and answers time I was wondering how many people here are christians that came to the faith after say.... 18 or how many have grown up with it? I personally can't abid with religion I think it's silly that we still have it in this day and age but I can live with ppl if they wanna beleive it's just that when I see kids growing up in Ireland all I can see is: Baby is born... Christened.... Baby grows up and chances are will go to a school thats teaches a religion class... or should I say a preparation class for first communion.... They are thaught to pray and so forth and have their first communion and then onto confirmation and so on. In between they get kicked out of bed every Sunday morning to go to mass as well as religious holidays and so forth.

I asked my 8 year old brother who was saying the our father why he was saying it. He didn't know cept thats what he was told to do. It's my belief that most religion is just a nice slow brain washing process that starts from childhood. What would happen if u took a child and brought it up in everyway similar to ourselves but never let religion be a part of its life whatsoever... not even a mention of god or buddha or whatever what would he/she say when he found out alot of ppl worship something that has no basis in reality except for a novel someone wrote back in the old days?

I could go on but I'm not going to keep up with this post otherwise I won't be able to stop.

GuanYin

Canis Lupus wrote:

Seeing as its questions and answers time I was wondering how many people here are christians that came to the faith after say.... 18 or how many have grown up with it? I personally can't abid with religion I think it's silly that we still have it in this day and age but I can live with ppl if they wanna beleive it's just that when I see kids growing up in Ireland all I can see is: Baby is born... Christened.... Baby grows up and chances are will go to a school thats teaches a religion class... or should I say a preparation class for first communion.... They are thaught to pray and so forth and have their first communion and then onto confirmation and so on. In between they get kicked out of bed every Sunday morning to go to mass as well as religious holidays and so forth.

I asked my 8 year old brother who was saying the our father why he was saying it. He didn't know cept thats what he was told to do. It's my belief that most religion is just a nice slow brain washing process that starts from childhood. What would happen if u took a child and brought it up in everyway similar to ourselves but never let religion be a part of its life whatsoever... not even a mention of god or buddha or whatever what would he/she say when he found out alot of ppl worship something that has no basis in reality except for a novel someone wrote back in the old days?

I could go on but I'm not going to keep up with this post otherwise I won't be able to stop.

You're mixing up the concept of faith and belief with that of organised religion methinks.

The best way to look at a belief system is to see how much it lets you make your own choices. After all, as Neuro rightly says above, "own image" refers more to the ability to choose and the potential to grow and change.

What would be more interesting is the expose a child to the faith without the organised religion attached and see what they would become.

Canis Lupus

As I'm hungover and not really into philosophy I just wanna clarify what you mean by the faith. Do you mean as in people who beleive in god and make of it what they want rather than the entire going to mass lark? If that's what you mean I reckon it still all comes down to organised religion... As in my original post I'd be interested to know how many people beleive in christianity now that didn't have it as part of their growing up.

(of course I'm still not sure I've grasped what u mean by faith and belief)

40crush41

Canis Lupus, the reason why people raise their children a certain religion from birth is because they believe in their faith so much that they want to spread this love to their children. if ur not religious, i can understand why u would think it looks more like brain washing from an early age, but i love my faith and i know i will pass it on to my children for the love of my children -that they can also experience this love from God.

<What would happen if u took a child and brought it up in everyway similar to ourselves but never let religion be a part of its life whatsoever...>
hmm, at first glance this is what i think -that all people have this innate drive to find meaning/purpose to their lives. why they are here etc. if they found this "novel" then maybe it would help them find some guide and meaning to their lives -maybe this is telling u that religion is man-made, b/c people need meaning in their lives so they create religion. lots of people think this. then, there are many who believe in religion or in a God, i do. and i think that religion is much more than us -that there is much more here than we could ever know. but who knows? God? maybe noone... hmm, now im rambling -but yea, thats what came to mind.

and neuro-praxis -nice answers, was thinking the same thing for the 3rd question.

well, have a nice day -and keep the questions rolling, its good to get us "religious people" to think about our religion -i mean, its only our way of life ~beth

Canis Lupus

thats cool but doesn't that just confirm my point about religion.... Do u beleive because you feel its all true or can it not be argued that yur belief stems from your parents who passed their views onto you?

40crush41

of course it can be argued that ur belief system comes from ur parents who have passed their views onto u. how else would have it gotten there in so many cases? (mine included)
letsee if i can make a stupid analogy. my parents love bruce springsteen. so ive listened to his music since i was born -my ma was 9 months pregnant with my older sis at one of their concerts actually. soo -its always been there. and though sometimes it hasn't agreed with me (i went through a phase of rebellion and hated his music -just wanted to listen to "jock jams". boy-what was i thinking) but after seeing him in concert when i was 12, i was amazed at the show he put on. so now i enjoy his music (im 17 now) and i just bought his music for the piano the other day.

okay. so-my parents introduced me to springsteen. they introduced me to Catholicism. when i was young i really didn't know what it was all about, -like ur brother as well- "Jesus is ur friend" pretty much covered all of it. or sometimes i may question it, esp now that im older (symbolized by listening to "jock jams" in the analogy -one of those cds with all sorts of interesting dance music on it btw) but with questions and answers, by really thinking about this faith that i say i believe in -ive come to see it as the truth. (going to the concert/seeing the light, blah blah blah) i have the freedom to not believe in this faith -just as, as poorly as it is compared, that i have the ability to hate the music of bruce springsteen. so, though ur parents may bring u up in a faith, it is not them doing the believing. u can do all the faking u want, but if its not in ur heart -well, God knows.. and u know. so yea, u either believe or u don't.

another note -about praying. lots of people are guilty of just saying the words of prayers. im just as guilty of that anyone else. just gotta stop and think about it sometimes about what ur really saying.. that or just say prayers of ur own.

mmmhmmm, hope that made any sense at all ~Beth

neuro-praxis

Heh, 40crush41, nice to see a committed Dave Matthews fan about the house.

Canis Lupus, I hear your question. I have five minutes to do this (hey, it's hallowe'en so we're all set to go with our scary movies, our beer and our takeaway pizza!) so I will try to make it snappy.

While it is undeniable, as you have pointed out, that we are all deeply affected by the beliefs of our parents, it does not necessary follow that

1) All Christians come from Christian families
2) It is not possible to choose faith...only to be indoctrinated into it

Let me try to explain why. I'll begin anecdotally. I am a Christian. By this I mean that I believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man and that He died and rose again, in order to release every man and woman from the burden of sin. Practically, it means I try to live a life in close communion with God (I fail of course) and to live a life enriched by Christian values and ethics (in this, I fail too).

Now, my mother is an atheist, and my father is agnostic. I was raised positively un-churched.

Now, I became a Christian through my own choice as a teenager. I wasn't depressed, I wasn't at a low point in my life or anything like it: I was simply impacted by what I perceived to be the undeniable truths of Christianity. When I began to pray, my prayers were answered, and it was in this personal experience of a relationship with a living God that I began to develop an authentic faith, rooted both in intellectualism as well as experience. (For an intellectual examination of Christianity, by the way, I recommend anything by CS Lewis.:) )

As mentioned by 40crush41, passing on this faith to my children (if I ever have any) would be deeply important. Why? Because I believe it is the truth and I want them to know that depths of God's love for them. I want them to experience the freedom that I feel.

I haven't completed this post yet and I will do so hopefully tomorrow. I've got to run off now. I hope I have managed to say something mildly illuminating!

Happy Hallowe'en - filthy pagan festival as it is.

40crush41

well said, fellow dmb fan (woo! always happy to run into one!)

and great that there is a converted christian here to back us up -u guys tend to be the strongest in the faith, for the reasons that u got to chose ur faith and know that its not something to take for granted -kudos to u. =D

and happy halloween to u as well ~Beth

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

converted al qaida members are pretty strong in their faith as well, perhaps there are.. disadvantages to blind faith in the face of ... let's call it reality?

neuro-praxis

Faith (the term "blind" faith only betrays your personal prejudices, Mordeth) does not equal fundamentalism. This is obvious, even to yourself I'd hope.

Although I do like to think that I put the "fun" back into fundamentalism. Also...the "mental". THE IRONING IS DELICIOUS.

More later, for now, back to dawn of the Dead, oooooh yeah.

stevenmu

40crush41 wrote:

-that all people have this innate drive to find meaning/purpose to their lives. why they are here etc.

I'd agree with this, like Canis Lupus is saying I can't help but wonder if people see Christianity, or any organised religion as the solution to this because that is what they have been taught from a young age. I can certainly see your point that it is proper for a parent to teach their children their religion. It is after all a parents job to teach their children about right and wrong, and for many people their religion is a part of that.

Excelsior

Canis, there is more to Christianity than Catholicism and "all the mass lark". I think you need to broaden your horizons to make your points robust.

I am an adult convert to Christianity having experienced the same "indoctrination" as everyone else who went through the wide gate of the Irish educational system. (Isn't it funny how often this "indoctrination" fails?)

I didn't come to Christianity because it gave structure to my life. My atheism, which would be better called scientism, (because it took science, warped it and made it into a belief system) gave me structure. I wasn't in crisis or depressed.

I became a Christian because I was moved by rational and logical and complete argument to consider the claims of Jesus as the Christ. What that means is that in daily arguments over the course of four months, I was compelled to try this prayer thing if I ever wanted to claim intellectual rigour or open mindedness again.

Prayer turned out not to be a pyschological trick or a mass psychosis as I had thought. Prayer turned out to be communication with God.

A combination of rational argument and personal experience brought me to faith. There was no input from parents, or any authority figures. There was no latent indoctrination from religious bodies. I freely made the choice to pray sincerely and I freely accept the consequences of that decision.

stevenmu wrote:

I'd agree with this, like Canis Lupus is saying I can't help but wonder if people see Christianity, or any organised religion as the solution to this...

I strongly disagree that Christianity can function as a kind of a mop to soak up the moral and existential difficulties that we face in our lives. Interestingly, so too does the Bible,

Paul, in the first of his letters to the church in the city of Corinth wrote:

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Basically what this quote above means is that if Christianity isn't actually true, then believing it is stupid. It puts too many demands on you with all the charity and the justice and the integrity stuff. If Jesus wasn't Christ, make it up as you go along or follow something else because it would be a pity to pretend to be a Christian when such an idea makes no sense (if Jesus wasn't the Christ how can there be Christians?)

Canis Lupus

Excelsior wrote:

I am an adult convert to Christianity having experienced the same "indoctrination" as everyone else who went through the wide gate of the Irish educational system. (Isn't it funny how often this "indoctrination" fails?)

I didn't come to Christianity because it gave structure to my life. My atheism, which would be better called scientism, (because it took science, warped it and made it into a belief system) gave me structure. I wasn't in crisis or depressed.

I became a Christian because I was moved by rational and logical and complete argument to consider the claims of Jesus as the Christ. What that means is that in daily arguments over the course of four months, I was compelled to try this prayer thing if I ever wanted to claim intellectual rigour or open mindedness again.

heh heh I intentionally left out the word indocrination from my posts But anyway... So you became a christian. (Forgive my spellings of other religions/beliefs here) why did you not convert to become a buddhist? a shintoist? a sikh(ist??? lol) or even join some strange cult chanting about the end of the world? Is it not coincidental (from my point of view) that the religion you chose to follow/accept happens to be the religion you were exposed to as a child? I'd also like to put the same question to neuro praxis: Did you grow up in Ireland and were you therefore exposed to mostly christianity as a religion growing up?

It's just that from my own experience (and I'm not claiming to know everyone in Ireland and so on) is that I don't know of a single person who believes in a given religion that wasnt in some way introduced to it as a child.

Manach

I think we all accept unquestionly our Parent's attitudes when we were in childhood. As we reach adulthood, you don't completely reject or accept all of these but choose those that seem to make most sense and reject others, strands of politics and historical viewpoints as a personal example. For me though Catholicism seemed instinctive right and in my own studies since then, well the Church has been at times venal and corrupt <ok alot>, but the miracle is that it could still produce some extraordinary figures. As for some strange cult chanting about the end of the world, Greenpeace still recruiting?

pooka

Canis Lupus wrote:

So you became a christian. (Forgive my spellings of other religions/beliefs here) why did you not convert to become a buddhist? a shintoist? a sikh(ist??? lol) or even join some strange cult chanting about the end of the world? Is it not coincidental (from my point of view) that the religion you chose to follow/accept happens to be the religion you were exposed to as a child?

Hi Canis,

As another adult convert to Christianity (I was ... 24 I think?), I can sympathise with your question here. In fact, it was one of the greatest stumbling blocks for me as I moved towards faith - "Am I simply accepting what I was brought up in, or what as a Westerner underlies much of my culture?"

However, it turned out to be a bit of a dud, when I considered it carefully, because I realised that what I had *thought* Christianity to be was wide off the mark. In fact, an important part of my story of coming to faith in Christ is where I realise that my upbringing taught me virtually nothing about the actual core tenets of Christianity. ;o)

Another point that weighs heavily against your argument is that Christianity is currently growing in culturally 'nonchristian' states at an astounding rate. China has a burgeoning (and persecuted) Christian population, and Korea has become one of the bigger 'missionary-sending' countries in the world.

Anyhow, hope this is informative,

Cian

Canis Lupus

yeah but is christianity growing as a result of mass adult conversions or does it still come back to parents and their influence... No need to answer mind u cos I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself lots

I think I have just discovered a problem trying to debate in a christianity forum... That is the likelihood of me convincing ye to give up christianity is non existant and the same can be said the other way around.... hmmm...

JustHalf

Canis Lupus wrote:

yeah but is christianity growing as a result of mass adult conversions or does it still come back to parents and their influence... No need to answer mind u cos I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself lots

Well, it's growing because of both. If your asking where the greatest increase is, well I don't know if anyone has figures.

Canis Lupus wrote:

I think I have just discovered a problem trying to debate in a christianity forum... That is the likelihood of me convincing ye to give up christianity is non existant and the same can be said the other way around.... hmmm...

Debate can be useful for more than the task of convincing another that our view is true. It can help us better understand anothers point of view, and interestingly can also help us better understand our own.

stevenmu

I wonder also how many people choose their branch of christianity based on their upbringing. I suppose the obvious example of this would be in Northern Ireland where people brought up with a republican, catholic background would always be catholics and the same for unionist/protestants. I know there are exceptions and I think they're becoming more and more common nowadays but generally that was always the case.

Excelsior

Well, that is much more of a sociological problem than a religious one. Practically anywhere else in the world you can relatively easily change denomination or tradition without suffering a total loss of social capital, but sectarianism is so strong in Ireland, and particularly the North, that to simply change the community you worship with is a costly decision.

Think about how in Holland or America or, well, anywhere else, you can freely go to any church on Sunday and no one minds. What should matter is Christianity, not the variety practiced.

But historical and social reasons make it more difficult here.

stevenmu

In the case of NI that's mainly true I suppose, people would choose or stick with their denomination more for political reasons then faith based ones.

I agree with you that christianity should be more important than the varieties practised but if that was the case then why are there so many varieties out there ? There are some pretty big theological differences between some of them. I've heard it said that Islam and Judaism are closer to each other than many of the Christian denominations (altough I suspect very few Jews or Muslims would admit to that ). I realise that many of the splits have happened for sociological or political reasons, such as the possible upcoming one in Anglicanism over homosexual bishops, but by and large people will generally stick with the one they are most exposed to.

Canis Lupus

JustHalf wrote:

Debate can be useful for more than the task of convincing another that our view is true. It can help us better understand anothers point of view, and interestingly can also help us better understand our own.

Nah I'm right, yur just not listening :P

Excelsior

Stevenmu, as a big boring Christian I might say that God made each of us differently with different gifts and tendencies and natural inclinations and those combine to mean that we each feel a need to worship in a particular way. As a result we have many many denominations to cater for the many expressions of faith.

To a massive extent, all traditions agree that Jesus was the Christ and all that comes along with that. Now they disagree with secondary issues about when to baptise or what kind of music to sing or what type of architecture to use or whether to Heinz or Bachelors make the better beans. But they agree on the primary premise of Christianity which is that Jesus was Christ and they each have a different way to express that.

I am a Christian. I am a part of a Presbyterian community. I could just as easily attend a CofI, RC, Baptist, Methodist, Non-denominational or any other types of service on a Sunday and be happy but Presbyterianism suits me in its structure and its intellectualism and the local Presbie church is great. Therefore, I am technically a Presbie. The denomination needn't matter.

omnicorp

1) When the bible says that God created man in his own image, that implies that God has two arms, two legs, two eyes, a nose etc. To me this seems kind of strange, why would God have arms and legs, what is he going to carry, where is he going to walk to, why have eyes if he can see everything, whey see anything if he's omnipotent ? Is this a big part of peoples faith or is it just there to hold creationism together ?

2) Jesus called himself the son of God. He also said that we are all Gods children. Why is the first statment taken literally whereas the second is always taken more as a symbolic gesture ? It seems to me that Jesus himself said that we are all equal to him in everyway and yet every form of Christianity elevates him to a higher, more divine level than the rest of mankind.

3) Now for the biggie... If God is as loving, caring and benevolant as the New Testament would have us believe, why create the Earth and put mankind on it ? Why not just keep us all in Heaven in the first place ?

1)The Bible is Mans interpretation of Religion. This part just feeds their ego I suppose.

2)Christ was Probably someone who was filled with the "Holy Spirit" Moreso than us thereby we are ALL God's children, he was just a "Better" child that us if you will.

3)If you had a child, would you keep him in the safety of home or let hi out into the World to live?

Hope this helps.