Car Parking availability stations - solution?

Andy Mc

I have commuted into Dublin from Drogheda each morning, leaving my car at the train station. The car parking situation is getting worse each week as more and more people commute from Drogheda to Dublin all the time. Its now at the stage where there is no chance of parking unless you are there before 8am. Then if you do end up leaving your car in a dodgy place you get one of those impossible to take off "kindly refrain" stickers. I know that the situation is much worse in other stations from talking to other commuters.
What is the solution?
Should Irish Rail invest in multi storey car parks for commuters, should pay parking be introduced, I wouldn't mind paying a small sum if I was guranteed a spot, it may encourage people close enough to the stations to walk.
What do you guys think, have Irish rail got a plan?

Andy Mc

narommy

I recall that Irish Rail had planned on introducing parking fees sometime in the last two years and there was uproar. It's off the agenda for the forseeable future

dmeehan

why dont they (Irish Rail) build proper park & ride sites, especially at station where there is demand for parking?

would it be feasible to build a new station outside of a town (eg, Drogheda) with good road access and build Park & Ride at the new station?

A Dub in Glasgo

Proper park & ride at stations invloves a lot of space which may not be there

What about the council building a big carpark within 5-10 of the station and provide a free shuttle bus to the train station. It would have to be a paid car park to justify the cost involved (Iarnrod Eireann would also be expected to contribute).

shltter

there is a new station planned for drogheda on the northern side

park and ride is vital however iarnrod eireann dont have the money to invest in it
the parking would need to be free or at very low cost so private enterprise will not be interested

loyatemu

why would IE build multistorey carparks? there's no money in it for them, they don't have any spare money and their trains are all full anyway so it wouldn't bring in any more passengers.

in Bray everyone parks on the seafront, but the council wants to introduce disc parking here. The reason? - because they can and it will generate extra income for them. The fact that it will discourage people with cars from using the DART and generate extra traffic seems to be lost on them.

Borzoi

loyatemu wrote:

in Bray everyone parks on the seafront, but the council wants to introduce disc parking here. The reason? - because they can and it will generate extra income for them. The fact that it will discourage people with cars from using the DART and generate extra traffic seems to be lost on them.

That would be the whole lack on an 'integrated' system again. Everybody from coucils, residents, commuters, tranport providers etc need to get involved in finding the solution to our tranport fiasco

BrianD

There seems to be a widely held "conventional wisdom" that states that pay parking at rail stations will discourage rail use. Absolute bunkum and it's time that this myth was dispelled.

Parking facilities at all rail stations should be developed with multi-storey car parks being a sensible option where real estate is at a premium. A competitive daily rate will allow commuters travel by car to the station and make their onward journey by rail. of course everybody would like free parking but there is nothing for free in life!

From my experience abroad its rare that you would free "park and ride" facilities at railway stations. People want adequate and secure parking and the convenience of rail travel and they will pay for it. It's a ridiculous to think that an amenity such as the seafront in Bray is clogged up with commuter parking. They are not there because it is free rather because there is insufficient parking at the station.

netman

Well, there's a right and wrong way to go about fixing this problem, and my guess is that they (IE, Government or whoever) will opt to do nothing at all instead.

One way is to start building multi storey car parks etc on every station, costing a huge amount and bringing no profit at all. Lets face it, the land in and around Dublin is so expensive that even if they could find a suitable site, the revenue coming in from what they can charge for a park & ride facility won't make the investment viable. And we're talking about companies here, not charities. Their aim is to make profit, invest as little as possible, charge as much as possible.

The other way is to direct the money into infrastructure instead of building numerous car parks. Build trams, metros, bus corridors that bring the commuters to the trains. If you had a bus leaving from your estate to the train station every 5-10 minutes you wouldn't need to drive there, it would cost you less than park&ride and it would also be a smaller investment for IE, definitely more profitable. It might be a solution for Drogheda, but my guess is that Bray is already crazy with traffic and that these buses would just get caught up in the existing congestion. Trams and metros might be the answer, but also a much bigger investment. The key is not to build facilities for commuters to drive to the public transport, but to bring the public transport to them. Invest the money into extending the system instead of trying to build car parks that won't really solve anything.

This is just my opinion... I've seen other cities, even in poor countries, and the way they handle public transport. They have networks, where we have a couple of main lines of public transport. Buses are inefficient and use the existing road infrastructure making them susceptible to traffic congestion. Trains, trams and darts... Well, they're the best form of public transport we have, but we're lacking a network, and they're already running at 100% capacity.

Hagar

BrianD wrote:

There seems to be a widely held "conventional wisdom" that states that pay parking at rail stations will discourage rail use. Absolute bunkum and it's time that this myth was dispelled.

I don't think this should be dismissed too lightly. Commuters who drive to a station and then park are already carrying the major burden of motoring, tax, insurance, finance and depreciation. On top of this they then pay a train fare. To have to pay an additional parking charge could easily tip the balance in favour of taking the car to the final destination and paying for parking there. After all if the cost of train fare + station parking is greater than or even close to petrol + town parking , why take the train when you are already commited to the car for part of the journey?

Personally it would discourage me. There is only so much that the average person will take. It would be short sighted madness to introduce parking charges.

dowlingm

Cork station doesn't have free parking, why should any station have it? Especially in urban areas where pay parks are all around? Parking at rail stations should be free IF YOU HAVE A SEASON TICKET and thus factored into the cost of same. If you have a day ticket you should get a cheap rate. If not you should pay a punitive rate if you are merely parking to go shopping down the street.

Hagar

dowlingm wrote:

Cork station doesn't have free parking, why should any station have it?

That's the sort of logic that is killing the average citizen in this country.
My question is "Everywhere else is free, who the fúck do Cork station think they are charging passengers?" :mad:

dmeehan

Hagar wrote:

That's the sort of logic that is killing the average citizen in this country.
My question is "Everywhere else is free, who the fúck do Cork station think they are charging passengers?" :mad:

with regards to parking in Cork City, nowhere else is free

Andy Mc

As someone else said , nothing is for free, and I live a distance from the station that you could not walk. I would be willing to pay a reasonble rate to know that a car parking space is available for me in the station each morning. On a number of occasions I have missed the train, when trying to locate a parking space in which I will not get a kindly refrain sticker or worse a clamp.
It would also encourage people who live close to walk to the station and free up more spaces.

Andy Mc

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

That's the sort of logic that is killing the average citizen in this country.
My question is "Everywhere else is free, who the fúck do Cork station think they are charging passengers?" :mad:

Actually with the Luas it's paid parking, and I know LImerick and Galway stations (as well as Heusto) are pay parking too. But it appears Dart users are "special" for some reason

BrianD

Hagar wrote:

I don't think this should be dismissed too lightly. Commuters who drive to a station and then park are already carrying the major burden of motoring, tax, insurance, finance and depreciation. On top of this they then pay a train fare. To have to pay an additional parking charge could easily tip the balance in favour of taking the car to the final destination and paying for parking there. After all if the cost of train fare + station parking is greater than or even close to petrol + town parking , why take the train when you are already commited to the car for part of the journey?

Personally it would discourage me. There is only so much that the average person will take. It would be short sighted madness to introduce parking charges.

I totally disagree. The extra cost of parking added to a seasonal ticket won't discourage a commuter. The additional cost and stress of the commute will easily outweigh the parking charges. At the very least, there is no research to prove that free parking encourages public transport use. I think its a no brainer that the provision of plentiful and affordable parking and a good train service will increase passenger numbers.

IR should have immediate approval to start charging for the few parking spaces that they have. The parking solution could be outsourced to allow building of multi-story car parks with pricing linked to train fares. The longer your season ticket the cheaper the parking.

It's ironic that tax breaks were given to multi story car park developers in the city centre and IR were forbidden to build any. I wonder was there a link? Granted that there is a certain amount of multi story parks required in the city.

sliabh

Why not lease the existing car parks to someone line Park Rite (or their ilk) and get them to build and manage new multi story parks?IR gets a steady revenue stream and they retain the land. So if the private company f*cks up they can take the service back and hand it to another company.

shltter

sliabh wrote:

Why not lease the existing car parks to someone line Park Rite (or their ilk) and get them to build and manage new multi story parks?IR gets a steady revenue stream and they retain the land. So if the private company f*cks up they can take the service back and hand it to another company.

well lookat the cost of parking in the multi story carparks about 2.50e an hour
thats what they charge to make a profit IR could not charge anything like that without driving customers away

at best all you can charge is a nominal fee a couple of euros a day
there is no profit in that

it would probably not even pay its running costs

look at the disaster public private partnership made of the carpark in beaumont where someone visiting a sick relative gets fleeced day after day
the hospital gets none of the revenue and had to pay compensation to the operator because of illegal parking
then had to spend thousands putting in bollards to stop the illegal parking
money that would be much better spent getting people off the trolleys in a/e
and of course the operator got a massive 18million euro tax break
win win for the private company
loss for the public hospital
and joe public pays for the lot
public private partnership no thanks

sliabh

shltter wrote:

well lookat the cost of parking in the multi story carparks about 2.50e an hour
thats what they charge to make a profit IR could not charge anything like that without driving customers away

at best all you can charge is a nominal fee a couple of euros a day
there is no profit in that

Fair enough, but the Luas park and ride shows that you can charge a nominal fee. Of course it won't pay for a multi story car park, but it will keep casual users out of the car parks (I know, as I am one at Sea Point).

shltter wrote:

look at the disaster public private partnership made of the carpark in beaumont

There is a big difference between commuters and someome visitng a hospital.

shltter wrote:

then had to spend thousands putting in bollards to stop the illegal parking money that would be much better spent getting people off the trolleys in a/e

Ah, one of the great fallacies of the Irish health service - "It needs more money", when spending on health has tripled in the last 10 years to no great improvement in service. What the health service needs is greater efficiency, not more money.

Hagar

sliabh wrote:

There is a big difference between commuters and someome visitng a hospital.

Commuters have some choice. I paid a pound an hour to watch my mother die of cancer over 3 weeks.

I hope they spent my money wisely.....

shltter

sliabh wrote:

Fair enough, but the Luas park and ride shows that you can charge a nominal fee. Of course it won't pay for a multi story car park, but it will keep casual users out of the car parks (I know, as I am one at Sea Point).

There is a big difference between commuters and someome visitng a hospital.

Ah, one of the great fallacies of the Irish health service - "It needs more money", when spending on health has tripled in the last 10 years to no great improvement in service. What the health service needs is greater efficiency, not more money.

yes but your orignal post was about multi story car parks and revenue streams
not about nominal fees to stop casual parkers in fact this could be done without any fee for example use of a train ticket to raise barriers on the exit

yes commuters can decide not to use the train at all and drive into town
someone visiting a hospital has no choice but to be there thats why it works at the hospital but would not work at a train station


i actually said that money spent on parking bollards to facilitate a private company was a waste i never said give them more money
but surely you would agree that the money spent on that could have been better spent
the lack of improvement in the health service really goes to the lack of beds that were removed and never replaced but thats off topic and another arguement

shltter

Hagar wrote:

Commuters have some choice. I paid a pound an hour to watch my mother die of cancer over 3 weeks.

I hope they spent my money wisely.....

sorry to hear about your mother hagar

that was my point you had no choice a commuter would have
and would more than likely choose not to pay
and the money doesn't even go back into the hospital it goes into the pockets
of a private company

antoinolachtnai

It does seem to me that park-n-rides often aren't as good a solution as they appear. There are a few problems.

1. People working or visiting near the park-n-ride may decide to park in the new car park. This blocks spaces for public transport users. It also encourages car use by these people.

2. Greater car use in the area, both by local workers and commuters leads to congestion in the area. This has many effects. Most damaging, it makes it very difficult to run an economic feeder bus service passing by the park-and-ride station. This encourages even more people (workers and commuters) to take their cars.

As a result of this whole setup, commuters may not to bother with the gridlock, hassle and public transport charges, and decide to simply drive on to their final destination, especially if the weather is poor.

This is a little bit of an archetypal case. Few cases are actually extreme as that. But there does seem to be something very like this happening in the Sandyford area. (I only visit Sandyford occasionally, and would be interested to hear the thoughts of regular users.)

In summary, I think that park-n-ride has to be applied quite sparingly and with careful controls.

I can certainly see the application in a rural setting, but in a suburban setting, the cure may be almost as bad as the disease.

Other options, like a feeder bus and facilities for cyclists certainly need to be given an equal or greater priority.

A Dub in Glasgo

Park & Ride facilities are an excellent idea and should be encouraged. There are quite a few P&Rs on the Glasgow Subway which are in suburban areas and areas just outside the city centre.

Avoid city centre congestion and leave your car at one of the car parks reserved for Subway passengers. Tokens for all day parking can be purchased for use with all ticket types except single tickets. You can purchase your token when you purchase your ticket. However holders of multi-journey and season tickets can purchase a token each day on presentation of a ticket within its period of validity.

All car parks are equipped with closed-circuit TV surveillance.
Station with Park and Ride facility price for parking token only
Kelvinbridge £1.20
Bridge Street, West Street, Shields Road stations £1.00

Park and Ride is free at Bridge Street, West Street, Shields Road, and Kelvinbridge stations on Sundays for passengers holding any type of valid Subway ticket except for single tickets.

http://www.spt.co.uk/Travel/subway.html

A lot of the stations around the Glasgow area have Park & Ride (including my local station which has a new free 200 space car park).

They certainly work and take cars off the commute into the city centres.

antoinolachtnai

Well, it's good to hear it's working in Glasgow. I've been in the centre of Glasgow, but I don't know a lot about the situation of the city as a whole.

A big problem in Dublin is that the congestion is not limited to the city centre. There is a lack of roadspace on the ring road, on the approaches, on the radial routes, near the out-of-town business parks, just about everywhere really. So moving cars away from the city centre towards the suburbs doesn't really resolve much. It's just moving the problem around.

(Of course I have to accept that anything which reduces the length of car journeys will obviously help, to some degree.)