Manchester United - a team in decline ?

thejollyrodger

Since Manchester United failed to beat an ordinary Birmingham side today and havent been doing as well like they used to in the last few seasons does anyone think Man Utd are a team in decline ?

I'm not a ABU fan btw, but I think Man Utd are a team in decline. Personally I think its down to the manager and Fergie has to go for the good of the club. The Fergie/Keane alliance isnt producing the goods anymore.

Ferguson has more or less his full squad back, Rooney has a few games under his belt so does Van Nisiltroy and Smith yet they failed to score. They only have scored something like 9 goals in the last 9 or 10 games. Thats something that should be corrected with all their strikers back.

Their performance in Europe in the last few season has been disapointing, and if they dont beat Arsenal next week its unlikely that they can win the Premiership. What does everyone think ? Is it just a matter of a difficult start, Fergie is at the job too long, or is it a liverpool type club in decline ?

mike65

Ah! Its the annual Autumn post which asks "are Man Utd a team in decline?"

Sadly the answer is almost certainly no, they just need a few new players in midfield and defence.

Mike.

gandalf

Its too early to say anything like that at this stage of the season especially with the team they have at their disposal. They have had their bad patch at the start of the season, as an Arsenal fan I expect ours to happen sometime as well (yes it didn't happen last season but this unbeaten run has to end sometime). When I check out the table Uniteds position is always the one I check after Arsenal they are still the main threat, I still think Chelsea flatter to decieve and that dapper Portugese is on shaky ground already with his buses .

If we do beat them next week I am sure that there will be calls for Sir Alco's head but if I were a united fan I would be far more worried about Mr. Glaser. He is the real threat to the team.

If United are in the same position by Christmas then I would say they are in decline, its too early now, its a nice thought thou

thejollyrodger

I cant see Man Utd beating Arsenal next week. Arsenal are in a different class tbh. Utd look far from convincing, they were meant to have their big turn around with Rooney started playing and when all their players got back to full fitness.

Big Ears

Domination in football is like empires : it never lasts forever , but like a country that started an empire they can still remain powerful .

For me its more a case of other teams improving and United also improving but not to the same standard of Arsenal and Chelsea .

I still would fancy them for third , but I think they will be quite a drift of the winners .

I don't think a change of manager is going to help Man United , as I don't beleive they have the good enough players to be better than Arsenal anyway .

But if current form continues United could find themselves without a Champs League place for the first time in a long time , and if that happens it will be the end of Fergie , and will cost them immensly financially .(bandwagon , finds provide a lot of money for United but if the team aren't doing well they will go away , and not only go away , but go away into the arms of they're biggest rivals)

But I still wouldn't be rushing to the bookies , and puting a bet on United not winning a trophy this season .

The Muppet

Some of Uniteds players are passed their peak and need to be replaced. I would be very surprised to hear true United fans call for fergie,s head but football supporters are a fickle lot and who knows ?

Performances have not been as good as I would have liked but United have had bad early runs in previous seasons and come good in the end. I do still believe we have a couple of problems in midfield but everywhere else is strong enough now. I would not compare United toi Liverpool as financially they are Poles apart and United should be capable of buying themselves out of decline if needed.

Its too early to write off their premiership chances but I think Fergies main target this year is Europe.

A Dub in Glasgo

They are certainly in decline this season and will not get their hands on the league title or the Champions League

super_furry

United's main problem is their aging midfield and the sub-standard replacements brought in. The years are quickly catching up with Keane, Giggs and Scholes, all of whom are nowhere near the standards they set for themselves in the past. Aside from Ronalda, the new midfielders brought through - Kleberson, Djemba Djemba, Fletcher and Miller just aren't good enough for a team that has Premiership aspirations.

I think yesterday's game spoke volumes, despite having some of the league's best and most expensive strikers on the pitch they couldn't force a breakthrough against an ordinary Birmingham side because the suply just wasn't there.

mr_angry

super_furry wrote:

United's main problem is their aging midfield and the sub-standard replacements brought in. The years are quickly catching up with Keane, Giggs and Scholes, all of whom are nowhere near the standards they set for themselves in the past. Aside from Ronalda, the new midfielders brought through - Kleberson, Djemba Djemba, Fletcher and Miller just aren't good enough for a team that has Premiership aspirations.

I agree. United have a lethal strike force, and the return of Ferdinand seems to have really tightened them up defensively. However, in midfield, its clear that Keane, Scholes, and Giggs are a long way from their best at the moment. Whether thats down to form, and is something they can recapture, I don't know. But at the moment, they're letting the side down badly.

I've seen too many teams go to Old Trafford with United on a bad run, and in the end it proves to be the catalyst for United to kick-start their season. I wouldn't bet against United winning next Sunday, but for once, I don't think it will make much difference to the league. They're a long way behind, and Arsenal can actually afford to lose and retain top spot. Of course, Arsenal wont want to lose their unbeaten record at Old Trafford, and will be up for tha match themselves.

Form is pretty much out the window in these games. In the long term, if United can get their act together in midfield, they'll be as dangerous as ever.

jesus_thats_gre

If they dump the likes of Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Phil Neville and the like from midfield and spend about 40 million replacing them while also buying a new centre half, they will be back to their best again..

Raskolnikov

Big Ears summed it up for me. Utd haven't declined per se, it's just that Arsenal and Chelsea have come on in leaps and bounds. I still think Ferguson made a grave error in signing Rooney. Not only has he lost a significant amount of next seasons transfer budget, but he's strengthened an area that didn't really need strengthening. We're seeing the result of that lack of foresight now this season, the Utd midfield is lacking the creativity and drive to create chances for the £100 million strike force. I think the battle for midfield in the Arsenal-Man Utd game is going to be very interesting It could just prove my hypotheses right.

thejollyrodger

I think Fergie had to buy Rooney, he is one of the genuine talents of the premiership and Man Utd might as well have him than letting him go to Arsenal or Chelsea. Van N. isnt getting any younger and united have to keep building for the future.

I agree with getting rid of the likes of Djemba Djemba and Kleberson. They just dont have the ability and are just a waste of space:).

United need another leader in the centre of the park once roy calls it a day. I think thats a big part of their team more than any other club. Maybe someone like Gerrard, but he doesnt seem to want to move from Liverpool.

Fergie will only have 2 seasons left at max. If they dont win something this year then I can see lots of people calling for his head.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

If they dump the likes of Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Phil Neville and the like from midfield and spend about 40 million replacing them while also buying a new centre half, they will be back to their best again..

well that aint going to happen after he blew this seasons and next seasons transfer budget on rooney.... looks like another arsenal title im feeling...

jank

I would like to think so but i doubt it.
They still have huge resources and on there day could beat anyone but they have a problem in midfield.

The thing is it looks as if the transfer kitty is empty until jan 2006!, as next summers budget was spent on rooney but i think more money will be made available some how.

If utd get a run going they are to be feared and im still waiting for that day.
Europe looks to be the priority though

//2 cents

jesus_thats_gre

ohh god bless, he's back

jank

The Muppet

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

ohh god bless, he's back

Yes but for how long this time.

Welcome back Jank. What was it like in the big house?

smemon

that question will be answered next sunday.

fergie is not past it or hasnt lost it, he's assembled a new side with massive players such as ronaldo and rooney and on paper it doesnt look too bad.

sunday is a big test, must-win game for utd. pressure and expectancy will be as great as ever. if manutd are in decline they will lose to arsenal. if utd win, it will prove they havnt lost it. 1 defeat is all it takes to knock arsenal off course, they have been very lucky lately and have shown they have weaknesses in their football.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

have shown they have weaknesses in their football.

So thats why the've gone 49 games ubeaten :rolleyes: .Im afraid you're looking for things that aren't there , and why do I get the feeling you don't think theres much difference between Arsenal and United .

jank

Twas grand nice to get away from all the pressures of boards.ie and chill out for a bit. Got let out almost 2 weeks ago too im just taking it handy like.

I agree with smemon that next weeks game is a make or break for utd. If they lose it will be very hard for them to come back, if they win it could knock arsenal off their stride and make it hard for them to regain their confidence!

But i dont know of what weaknesses he is on about playing premiership opposition(champs league a different story !) and lucky??
Maybe bolton.

Jivin Turkey

United will have to do alot more than just beat Arsenal next week if they want to get back into the title race.

smemon

Big Ears wrote:

So thats why the've gone 49 games ubeaten :rolleyes: .Im afraid you're looking for things that aren't there , and why do I get the feeling you don't think theres much difference between Arsenal and United .

tbh 49 games unbeaten is great etc.. but it will come to an end someday (hopefully). i feel with a gee'd up utd with the ability of ronaldo/rooney/saha/smith etc... (relatively new players that havnt tasted premiership titles) they can match arsenal and anyone for that matter.

its the likes of b'ham away they dont seem to be fired up for. BUT last year they were losing games like that and picking up no points at all. at old trafford, on a sunday evening id be shocked if utd lost to arsenal in such a massive game, i cant see it happening as although utd arent as solid as in the past, they are still one of the best around and capable of beating anyone when on form.

it should be a great match for neutrals as utd are the one side who are capable of beating arsenal especially with ferguson itching to end this record.

if utd win they'll be 8points off arsenal which isnt huge and can be made up with 28games left. should arsenal win utd would be 14 points behind which would be a mountain allright added to the physcological blow. a 6 pointer that will no doubt give us and idication of who'll end up with title.

The Rooster

United's first 11 is definitely good enough to beat Arsenal's on a given day. Its when injuries and rotation comes into place that they look ordinary. And of course the massive weakness is in midfield. Keane cant play 2 games a week every week. I dont think Giggs can either. And Ronaldo after a summer of football will surely need a rest or else he'll blow up by Christmas. Scholes has been dreadful this season. After that they've 6 or 7 players who are much of a muchness (Kleb, Djemba, Josh, Miller, Fletch, Bellion, Phil). Sometimes they play well, other times they look out of their depth.

But against Arsenal they'll have their first XI

Neville, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Heinze = on their day as good as Arsenal, though IMO both CBs are more error prone than Arsenal's CBs.

Ronaldo, Keane, Scholes, Giggs = as good as Arsenal

Van, Rooney = as good as Arsenal

As an Irishman first and foremost, I'd like to see O'Shea in there instead of Scholes, which would add some stability. If Ferguson plays Scholes and Scholes plays as bad as he has been, then there's the risk of United being overrun in the middle.

Any questionmarks over Arsenal relate mainly to the yougsters. How will Fabregas and Reyes cope in a big game v a big team? And Pires can disappear after he gets a couple of kicks, so I'm sure Heinze will be on the case.

I dont think United will lose, but Arsenal will win the title comfortably. United though will be very strong contenders in the CL, where they will be able to play their best team in every game when the action really starts.

p.pete

smemon wrote:

if utd win they'll be 8points off arsenal which isnt huge and can be made up with 28games left. should arsenal win utd would be 14 points behind which would be a mountain allright added to the physcological blow. a 6 pointer that will no doubt give us and idication of who'll end up with title.

Cool, so Liverpool can get within 6 points if United win - best of luck then. TBH I think we've already had a pretty big hint as to where the title is going, with some pundits describing Arsenals performance at the weekend as the best 45mins of football they'd seen (Villa actually aren't a bad team). So whether they they keep their unbeaten run or not it probably won't matter much by the end of the season.

I don't think United are a team in decline, they need strengthening but they're defitely not in a downward spiral. As pointed out they maybe don't quite have the motivation to beat the Birminghams of the league but then that's the difference between the Premiership winners and the also rans.

If their attack can gel they'll be frightening but without necessarily being able to keep clean sheets.

cournioni

United at the moment, IMO = Good team, weak squad.

impr0v

The Rooster wrote:

Any questionmarks over Arsenal relate mainly to the yougsters. How will Fabregas and Reyes cope in a big game v a big team? And Pires can disappear after he gets a couple of kicks, so I'm sure Heinze will be on the case.

I wouldn't be worried in the slightest about Reyes and Fabregas performing in the big games. Fabregas to me looks like real deal. Admittedly it's very early to judge but he has the potential to be the find of the season. Wenger may be forced to play him a little more than he would like given the injuries to Viera and Gilberto. I think he said early on that Fabregas has only 20 or so games a season in him, given how young he is.

And I can't see Heinze switching to the right hand side in order to deal with Pires. Presuming Ljundberg is fit in time, Heinze will have enough to deal with keeping tabs on him.

The Rooster

I'm not saying Reyes and Fabregas wont be good (if they play). They both look excellent players, but this will be the biggest game they've played. So we'll see if they're up to it, yet. Or maybe we wont, maybe Wenger will go with Gilberto - who's just in the same league as Kleb, Djemba etc.

Maybe this is a tad unfair on Pires, but I can see him doing everything he can to avoid being in the same area of the pitch as Heinze at any time! But despite that, and despite them starting on opposite sides, I'd bet on Henize kicking Pires hard in the first 15 minutes of the game.

And it certainly wont take that long for Cole to give Ronaldo a kick! While Ronaldo has improved a hell of a lot on his perpetual diving (couldnt get any worse) I fancy we'll see him hit the deck a lot everytime Cole comes near him.

woosaysdan

this is make or break for united, they must win to have some chance of keeping up with ARSEnal, i cant see them beating them to the league, not yet anyway!!! but getting the automatic champions league place would be a good achievement, as for keane, he has to be replaced soon, but imo the only people suitable for such a role are lampard and gerrard and its going to take some deal to get them to united!!! and as for scholes i think the best is still to come this season, imo he is just out of form at the moment, we all know giggs is not at his best (as in consistancy) and only has a hand full of great games but when he is at his best he's awsome!!! and then there is the question who can replace him??? duff??? maybe but trying to get him from chelsea, like lampard will require some dealing, no club will want to loose players like lampard and duff to title contenders!!! as for kleberson imo just needs a little bit more time and bellion is starting to show a bit of form at the moment so give them a chance!!!

Spalk0

PORNAPSTER wrote:

United at the moment, IMO = Good team, weak squad.

Wouldnt that be more like, Good squad, bad team?....I mean like given the fact they are all talented individuals but cant seem to play together or gel at the moment!

thejollyrodger

yeah good squad bad team.

They have lots of options now and only 4 players that they really need to dump.

But the team is not performing. Its like watching Real Madrid (not in terms of class) where you have 11 individuals on the side and no team spirit. Fergie and Roy has told them what to do but none of them look up to it.

smemon

if stats count for anything, utd havn't lost to arsenal in the league for 2 and a half years.

at old trafford even if i was a neutral id have doubts over arsenal winning, the same way id favour chelsea over arsenal at stamford bridge.

utd have been scoring few goals lately and fernerbache paid for that. more goals are inevitable and hopefully they'll come sunday. on the plus side, we've been keeping a couple clean sheets lately, the most weve conceded this season is 2.

though people will still say defence is a weak link in the utd side, it's coping quite well atm. goals at the other end is the problem.