Import Licence Court Case

civdef

There's an article in today's Times about a court case ongoing in the High Court a firearms dealer brought against the Minister for Justice because of a refusal to grant an import licence for a .470 rifle in 2002.

It has several interesting elements, even such as the Minister describing the type of rifle as "objectionable". The case could have significant ramifications. I haven't time to type it out here, anyone else able to, or to copy/paste from the online version?

woody

I would like to see this article aswell would be interesting

Sparks

From the [url=http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2004/1015/2245958614HM4CTFIREARMS.html
]Irish Times[/url]:

Firearms dealer challenges refusal to grant licence for rifle

The High Court has reserved judgment on a challenge by a firearms dealer to the refusal of the Minister for Justice to grant him an "occasional import licence" for a .470 calibre rifle which he had purchased in the UK.

The Minister's counsel described the rifle as a "lethal and objectionable" weapon which is used to shoot elephants.

The refusal of the licence to Mr Neil McVeigh, a registered firearms dealer, of Stradbrook Road, Co Dublin, restricted him from becoming an agent for certain firearms, Mr Gerard Hogan SC, for Mr McVeigh, said yesterday.

Mr McVeigh applied for the licence in October 2002 but it was refused.

The Minister said the refusal was on grounds of a current policy to grant firearms certificates only for specified weapons. The Minister later stated that firearms certificates and import licences could be granted only in relation to those firearms which came within the policy - shotguns, crossbows, unrifled airguns and rifles up to .22, except in the cases of deer hunting and competition target shooting when bolt action rifles up to .270 are authorised.

Yesterday, Mr Hogan argued that the refusal to grant a licence on the basis of a stated current policy was in excess of the provisions of the Firearms Act 1925 in that it failed to have regard to the fact that, as a firearms dealer, Mr McVeigh was not required to possess a firearms certificate under the Act. He claimed that the refusal of an import licence amounted to an amendment of the Firearms Act and usurped the discretion of a Garda superintendent to grant a licence.

In an affidavit, Mr McVeigh said he could not sell a firearm to any person unless they produced a firearms certificate for that weapon or could prove they were exempted from holding such a certificate. He believed there was no statutory provision proscribing the granting of a certificate for a .470 calibre weapon. The judge said it appeared there was no specific reason for Mr McVeigh wanting this particular calibre of gun. Mr Hogan said that was not the issue. The licence refusal prevented Mr McVeigh from trading within the State and restricted him from becoming an agent for certain firearms.

Mr James Devlin, for the Minister for Justice, said it was very clear that the Minister had discretion whether to allow the import of firearms. The Minister must decide the issue and that was exactly what had happened in this case. Mr Devlin said the rifle in question was a lethal weapon. The weapon was objectionable and Mr McVeigh had not explained why that view was wrong. This was a rifle which was used to shoot elephants.
© The Irish Times

Sparks

It looks clear-cut enough; one side arguing that the Gardai granted a licence so that means an importation order ought to follow; and the other side pointing out that there's nothing in the letter of the law that says that has to happen.

I've said it before, though not here - McDowell was a professional barrister for many years. If you think you can beat him about the head with semantics and legal arguments, you're dreaming.

civdef

Eh Sparks, you're not interpreting it correctly.

The man's case is that he's a dealer so doesn't need an individual cert for each rifle - which is true. The Dept is saying current policy is not to grant licences for firearms of the type he wished to import. He's arguing indirectly that this policy usurps the discretion of a Garda superintendent to grant a licence, which has been the key to other recent cases.

woody

Whilst I agree with the dealer he did not indicate what the purpose of having such a high calibre weapon was for.

C'mon .470 not exactly a sniper rifle, elephant gun yes, what exactly would you do with it, last time I looked the biggest animal we had lurking around was a cow!!

Sparks

Civ, they might happily turn about and grant him a licence on that argument; but that doens't mean he'll get an importation order, as we've been seeing in the last few weeks. And by the time that's all sorted, McDowell might well have gotten the CJB through the Dail with amendments making all manner of firearms actually illegal, let alone ruled against by policy.

civdef

His case is to get an import order. A dealer doesn't need a licence for each gun.

Sparks

But then why is he arguing that only a Garda superintendent has the authority to grant a licence and McDowell's interfering with that? Only McDowell's office has the authority to grant an importation order!

civdef

His argument as I see it is if the Minister refuses an import, then this usurps the authority of the superintendent who granted the firearm certificate. Equally, if the superintendent grants the cert, why should the Minister prevent the import?

The intent of the act certainly seems to be that if the gun is or can be licenced, then it should receive an import licence.

Sparks

Well, personally, I'd agree civ, and if it were so we'd be saved a lot of hassle - but legally, the two just aren't linked. Section 17 of the Act says nothing about having to give out an order, it just says that you have to get one before you can import a firearm:

A continuing licence to import firearms or ammunition may on application
in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister if he thinks fit so to do

And the spirit of the law is worth the paper it's written on in a courtroom...

civdef

A continuing import licence is a different thing, given to wholesalers usually only - it means you don't have to apply in advance for an import licence. They don't give them out very often, you need to be bringing in hundreds of guns annualy at least usually.

The type of licence in this case is called an "occasional import licence" and is in a different paragraph of the same secion.

Irishglockfan

No one notice the clanger in the report ?Unrifled air rifles are liscenseable?No mention of handguns either and the usual up to 270 restriction.

Also that this application was filed 2002 and it has taken 2 years to come to court.
So it seems that they are trying this without any consideration to events of this year in relation to the import grants of the 308 and such.

BTW ASFIK there is no calibre as a 470 ! it is a 460 weatherby and then up to 50 calibres.
What he wants it for is immaterial ,if he is entitled to legally own and posses it and use it safely are we to say him nay?Maybe he wants to go elephant hunting?

civdef

Anyway, as for reason to have such an item, that's very easy to justify. A customer with an interest in shooting abroad on safari could wish to apply for a .470 or similar in order to store and practice with it in Ireland.

civdef

There's a .470Nitro express or similar, if I remember right. Sort of yoke you'd get in an exclusive double rifle.
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabrowse/6/9292/653***690***

Unrifled airguns do need a licence. Firearms Act 1964, I think, brought in by Charlie Haughey.

Irishglockfan

civdef wrote:

There's a .470Nitro express or similar, if I remember right. Sort of yoke you'd get in an exclusive double rifle.

Ok you live & learn

Unrifled airguns do need a licence. Firearms Act 1964, I think, brought in by Charlie Haughey.
yeah, but it just goes to show how much attention was being paid to the proceedings by either [a]the reporter or the judicary possibly.