Genuine Questions:

easyteller

Genuine Questions:

How do you feel about Christianity? Do you feel it is THE real religion. I've posted this to various religious sites, the majority of which have ignored the question, one who answered. These questions aren't a wind up, rather just an attempt to get inside the mind of what a Christian is. I asked how a Christian could have peace knowing that the vast majority of people who ever lived will be spending eternity in Hell suffering unbelievable pain and anguish. The only response to this came from a well respected (In Christian terms) creationist organization, whose answer was that God would probably block out your from your mind other peoples memorys or that you will be so blissfully happy that you won't have time to think about others suffering somewhere else. I've seen this as a common feeling from other Christians, to me it smacks of the most unloving, arrogant, foolish feelings, but anyway....

Perhaps you could answer some of the following questions (Not all mine originally): By the way I am not a Christian, I refuse to believe in the god of the bible or for that matter any other god be it Jewish, Muslim etc. I find them to be manmade entities, repugnant to all the natural instincts of human beings.

Q1: Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike. Why is yours the right one? Do you accept that if you are wrong that you deserve to burn in hell for eternity for believing in the wrong God, no matter how good your intentions are?

Q2: It was not until the fourteenth century that the Bible was translated into German, and not until the fifteenth that Bibles were printed in the principal languages of Europe. Why couldn't God have found a better way of communicating his word, especially earlier on in history? A certain quote from an old scholar goes along the lines of "If a revelation from God was actually necessary to the happiness of man here and to his salvation hereafter, it is not easy to see why such revelation was not given to all the nations of the earth."

Q3: Is it necessary for all the pain in the world in order for Gods plan to come to fruition. Little children, men and women dying in the most horrific fashion all over the world throughout history?

Q4: WHy is Jesus's sacrfice considered so great? 3 days seperated from his father in hell, when every human who refuses to or can't acknowledge God, will have to sufer this for eternity.

Q5: Why should God object to a man wearing a garment made of woolen and linen? Why should he care whether a man rounded the corners of his beard? [Lev. xix, 19, 27.] Why should God prevent a man from offering the sacred, bread merely because he had a flat nose, or was lame, or had five fingers on one hand, or had a broken foot, or was a dwarf? If he objected to such people, why did he make them?" [Lev. xxi, 18-20.]

Q6: After the Israelite massacre of the Midianites, Moses, the man whom their god had presumably chosen to lead the exodus from Egypt, met his army returning with captives and ordered his officers to "kill every male among the little ones" and to kill all of the nonvirgin women but to "keep alive for [themselves]" all of the girls "who have not known man by lying with him" (Num. 31:17-18). Now that's a morally uplifting story, isn't it?

Q7: At the moment, terrorism, for the most part, seems rooted in Islamic fanaticism, but biblically based religions have no room to put on self-righteous airs, because they too are responsible for terrorism on a smaller scale. The half century of civil disorder in the Middle East is rooted in ancient religious beliefs that should have died long ago, such as the belief that God selected the Jews to be his specially "chosen people" and intended them to have forever the land they claim in this region. In our own country, we have "Christians" who kill abortion providers fully believing that what they are doing is the will of God, and they are then harbored or assisted by those who share their belief that the Bible justifies their actions. Agree/Disagree?

Q8: The biblical has ordered/said the following
Though he said “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations;
punishes offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5);
ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16);
demands animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity;
is partial to one race of people;
judges women to be inferior to men;
is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers;
created evil (Is. 45:7);
discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23);
ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14);
spread dung on people’s faces (Mal. 2:3);
sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24);
punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide;
and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10).

Q9: Some people feel that hell is just a metaphor. Do you feel the same way about heaven?

Q10: Was Eve Perfect? If she was, she would not have taken the fruit. If she wasn't, God created imperfection?

As I said at the beginning these questions aren't posted as a windup, it would be interesting to actually hear a Christian (Of whatever persuasion) answer these questions honestly, no matter what the answers may be. If you only feel like answering some, please do.

Thank you!!

Excelsior

If the moderator doesn't cut it out for the phrasing of the post I'll answer these bit by bit.

Excelsior

For this conversation I will be extending the responses of orthodox Christianity, as much as I can.

I am not trying to win anyone over. Instead, I just want to show easyteller that there are at least some Christians who will take his/her questions seriously.

If I reference the Bible it will be to back my opinion up in terms of Christian views; I'll try not to use it as an external source of authority.

Excelsior

Q10: Was Eve Perfect? If she was, she would not have taken the fruit. If she wasn't, God created imperfection?

No. Eve has a human being like any other (except, Christians believe, Jesus.)

God didn't create imperfection. God created humans (through the process of evolution... yadda yadda yadda) to have free will. That means we are the only creatures we know of who have a knowledge of good and bad, right and wrong. We can freely choose between options that are good for us, good for others, bad for us and bad for others.

The Christian perspective is that there was a first human who had this free will and they chose to misuse it for bad by "eating the apple from the tree of knowledge". Christian orthodoxy believes that a fallen angel had a large role in the decisions made by Adam and Eve.

The sin by the way, was not a sexual one; as many people seem to think. Instead, theologians think of it as a sin of pride. A & E reached for something they knew they shouldn't have, something that would cause them harm and something that is rightfully God's.

So, Eve was not perfect and God did not create imperfection. He created what He saw as good ("and it was very good" ) and Christians believe that He still thinks it is good.

GuanYin

easyteller wrote:

Genuine Questions:

How do you feel about Christianity?

I feel that I can respond to your whole post by saying the problem with christianity is not the inconsistancies or inadequacies with the story or message, but rather they way in which humans portray it and carry it out.

If you believe in Chirstianity (and I'll take the New Testament only, cos the old Testament is before Christ and has the nasty effect of debunking my whole argument ) then it is the message of God and specifically Christ that is of importance.

To many people have got caught up in the metaphors and the meanings of the bible when really Christ laid down a pretty easy plan to follow for the road to salvation.

What is wrong is you get people who take a self-righteous approach towards Christianity, feeling that they know whats best, they know how others should behave and they know what is and what isn't chistianity, because, after all, they're christians and you should be just. This is the trap that, in my opinion, most of the major churches have fallen into, but especially so the christian ones. On a good day you get the bible being twisted to their means, on a bad day you get the inquisition.

If you take Jesus's message at its simplest, then thats christianity. Its probably a bit moot to day that it doesn't matter if there is a god or not, because the message is a good one, but faith is by no means a bad thing.

Douglas Adams, as usual, phrased it perfectly when he described the present as "nearly 2000 years after one man was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change"

easyteller

Hi Guys, Thanks for your answers so far, if I can I would like to add a few comments to what you have written so far:

The Christian perspective is that there was a first human who had this free will and they chose to misuse it for bad by "eating the apple from the tree of knowledge". Christian orthodoxy believes that a fallen angel had a large role in the decisions made by Adam and Eve.

Can you define "Free will?" ( I have borrowed the following quote from a non believer (Dan Baker, whose articles can be found on the internet) to show the problem with this position. I am not trying to avoid arguing the point myself, but I feel his summary adequately adresses the problem with the free will argument): This is taken from the perspective of God talking about free will. How do you feel this affects the free will position of Christians?

"Let's say that I create this mechanism called "free will," which imparts to humans a choice. If I give you the freedom (though this is stretching the word because there is nothing outside of my power) not to love me, then if some of you, a few of you, even one of you chooses to love me, I have gained something I might not have had. I have gained a relationship with someone who could have chosen otherwise. This is called love, you say.

This is a great idea, on paper. In real life, however, it turns out that millions, billions of people have chosen not to love me, and that I have to do something with these infidels. I can't just un-create them. If I simply destroy all the unbelievers, I may as well have created only believers in the first place. Since I am omniscient, I would know in advance which of my creations would have a tendency to choose me, and this would produce no conflict with free will since those who would not have chosen me would have been eliminated simply by not having been created in the first place. (I could call it Supernatural Selection.) This seems much more compassionate than hell.

You can't have a love relationship with someone who is not your equal. If you humans don't have a guaranteed eternal soul, like myself, then you are worthless as companions. If I can't respect your right to exist independently, and your right to choose something other than me, then I couldn't love those of you who do choose me. I would have to find a place for all those billions of eternal souls who reject me, whatever their reasons might be. Let's call it "hell," a place that is not-God, not-me. I would have to create this inferno, otherwise neither I nor the unbelievers could escape each other. Let's ignore the technicalities of how I could manage to create hell, and then separate it from myself, apart from whom nothing else exists. (It's not as though I could create something and then simply throw it away--there is no cosmic trash heap.) The point is that since I am supposedly perfect, this place of exile must be something that is the opposite. It must be ultimate evil, pain, darkness, and torment.

If I created hell, then I don't like myself.

If I did create a hell, then it certainly would not be smart to advertise that fact. How would I know if people were claiming to love me for my own sake, or simply to avoid punishment? How can I expect someone to love me who is afraid of me in the first place? The threat of eternal torment might scare some people into obedience, but it does nothing to inspire love. If you treated me with threats and intimidations, I would have to reconsider my admiration for your character.

How would you feel if you had brought some children into the world knowing that they were going to be tormented eternally in a place you built for them? Could you live with yourself? Wouldn't it have been better not to have brought them into the world in the first place?"

easyteller

If you believe in Chirstianity (and I'll take the New Testament only, cos the old Testament is before Christ and has the nasty effect of debunking my whole argument ) then it is the message of God and specifically Christ that is of importance.

If people believe the bible is the word of God how can you discount one section and not another? What about books that were originally overruled to be allowed into the bible? Did the authorities at the time who decided not too include these overrule what God had said, or was it perhaps a revelation from God?

Why do the Catholic church and Protestant churches discount different books from their teachings. Who is correct and where did they get their mandate to do so?

easyteller

So, Eve was not perfect and God did not create imperfection. He created what He saw as good ("and it was very good" ) and Christians believe that He still thinks it is good.

From what you say above, if God created Eve and Eve was not perfect, then surely God created imperfection? I do not see how you can break the link between the creator and the creation?

Ba_barbaraAnne

syke wrote:

Douglas Adams, as usual, phrased it perfectly when he described the present as "nearly 2000 years after one man was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change"

That's Christianity in a nutshell. Jesus said ' I give you a new commandment: love one another as I have loved you' - anything else is flawed human interpretation of biblical passages and mythology. I am a committed Christian who believes in Christ's message but much of the 'religion' built around this message has nothing to do with love.

Free will is exactly what it says - we are free to choose to behave in whatever way we want. The challenge of Christianity is to choose to behave in a way that does not harm ourselves or others - ie. with love.

My belief of the after-life is that we come from God (a higher spiritual plane) and will one day return to him. Hell will be forever being denied that spiritual union.

The early Christian church was very quickly hi-jacked by politics and by sects within it. Many of the tenets of the Catholic Church were decided at various synods in the centuries after Jesus died. To make the transition to Christianity easier for the 'pagans', many of their beliefs were adapted and incorporated into the new religion. All you have to do is compare the old Celtic festivals and the RC ones. Even the decision to celebrate Christmas on December 25th goes back to pre-Christian times to the cult of the god Mithros.

My faith has nothing to do with religion - apart from the fact that I was brought up in the Catholic church - and I call myself a Christian who just happens to worship in a Catholic church fairly regularly. I believe in God, and in the message Jesus taught and try to live by it.

We are human beings who have a natural instinct to strive for a higher purpose in life. All societies have created gods for themselves, with rituals and taboos. Belief in the existance of 'God' is something we choose/not choose, but the message of the person called Jesus is valid for all.

Yes, the world is full of terrible suffering, but all any of us can do is the best that we can to live our lives in such a way that we do no harm and make a positive contribution to our society and those around us. I don't think God will deny anyone who has tried to do this.

On a lighter note - I think my philosophy is being passed on to my kids. They are wonderful little people who try hard to be good. One day my 11 yr old came home from National School to say the priest had been in to visit. 'But Mummy,' he said, ' We're not Catholics, we're Christians!'

JustHalf

Excelsior wrote:

If the moderator doesn't cut it out for the phrasing of the post I'll answer these bit by bit.

No, this is fine. It's actually good... though I suggest that easyteller might prioritise their questions so that they are answered in some sort of order. This thread could get very confusing otherwise.

easyteller

Hi Ba_barbaraAnne,

I understand where you are coming from, I like you come from a traditional catholic family etc. and i don't see anything wrong with trying to bring your children up right, who would? However I still think the fundamental question that I posed is not been answered, if the bible is the word of God then it is true in full, not just bits, if it is not the word of God then it is fake and just another book.

Your quote:

Free will is exactly what it says - we are free to choose to behave in whatever way we want. The challenge of Christianity is to choose to behave in a way that does not harm ourselves or others - ie. with love

This does not define free will like I outlined above, this is just like saying it is, cause I say it is.

In reference to Jesus and the quote:

I give you a new commandment: love one another as I have loved you' - anything else is flawed human interpretation of biblical passages and mythology

Surely if Christians take this quote from the bible they should also include other quotes from Jesus, you rarely hear of Christian mentioning the other things that Jesus said, They are as relevant as the above quote. They include the following:

"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword."

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)

"I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:35-36)

Jesus said that whoever calls somebody a "fool" shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22), yet he called people "fools" himself (Matthew 23:17).



I do agree with you that the early church was hi-jacked and changed but again surely an all powerful God would have prevented this from happening??

You made a quote "Hell will be forever being denied that spiritual union" This is fine in theory but do people ever follow this true. I believe that every single person who has ever lived will at a minimum know people who are destined for hell, more than likely close members of their family as well. It is fine to say we'll be happy with God, what about everyone else, is it a case of tough luck, you had your chance now it's too late? Why would anyone bring children into the world when there is a 95% chance that ultimately they will end up in hell.

I just think that anytime these serious questions are asked people ignore them and say that I need to feel peace with God, why not analyze the evidence and if it's found to be false throw it away. If it was found to be true and repugnant to some people are they necessary that evil that they are willing to stand up and say "I don't believe in this doctrine" People always seem to pick the parts of the bible that suit their situation, from my persepective if it really is the world of God then it is all true (Good and Bad) if there is even one bit of it false then it is not the word of the most powerful being ever to have been present in this world, rather it is a fake, manmade book.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the subject, I realise mine differ quite a bit, but I think that's ok

pooka

Hi easyteller,

You're basically asking for a full Christian 'apologetic' from a bunch of people who probably have other things on their time-plates. ;o) I'd recommend reading some of the work of C.S. Lewis, particularly "Mere Christianity", and perhaps also "The Everlasting Man" by G.K. Chesterton.

With regard to some of your other questions (particularly those regarding the authority of the Bible), it might be helpful to read a post on the matter I wrote elsewhere.

Mine is the second in the thread.

Cian

easyteller

pooka wrote:

Hi easyteller,

You're basically asking for a full Christian 'apologetic' from a bunch of people who probably have other things on their time-plates. ;o) I'd recommend reading some of the work of C.S. Lewis, particularly "Mere Christianity", and perhaps also "The Everlasting Man" by G.K. Chesterton.

With regard to some of your other questions (particularly those regarding the authority of the Bible), it might be helpful to read a post on the matter I wrote elsewhere.

Mine is the second in the thread.

Cian

Ok fair enough, i'll leave the topic alone if I can just ask one more question to finish it off. I realise there are a lot of points that christians and nonchristians will never agree on.

Do you believe that non christians go to hell for eternity? Yes/No (I do think it's a clear cut question, but a lot of people try to fudge it)

BTW; I have read "Mere Christianity". I found it interesting but obviously as you can tell from my questions I didn't agree with the majority of it.

Anyway, Take care

pooka

easyteller wrote:

Do you believe that non christians go to hell for eternity? Yes/No (I do think it's a clear cut question, but a lot of people try to fudge it)

You may see this as a dodge. If so, I apologise. My honest answer is: I don't know. I'm going to try to leave the whole judgement thing up to God.

Cian

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

but surely it says it in the bible.. what makes this one issue so special that you allow yourself the luxury of "not knowing"?

pooka

Mordeth wrote:

but surely it says it in the bible.. what makes this one issue so special that you allow yourself the luxury of "not knowing"?

No need to be aggressive.

First, I don't consider it a luxury, to be honest - it's something I worry about, think about, read about and argue about with my friends quite a lot. Since I'm not sure one way or the other, surely saying I don't know is the responsible thing to do?

Second, what gives you the idea that this is the only issue that I'm unsure about? There are many, many things that I find the bible is unclear on; perhaps I'm just not fundamentalist (i.e. literal) enough in my reading of it. ;o)

Being a Christian isn't about making dogmatic assumptions or statements; it's about trying to follow Christ and get to know God better. I don't know much about God; what I know so far is both comforting and frightening, but you won't find me claiming perfect knowledge on anything.

Cian

Excelsior

easyteller wrote:

Q1: ...Why is yours the right one? Do you accept that if you are wrong that you deserve to burn in hell for eternity for believing in the wrong God, no matter how good your intentions are?

By using the word "pretending" here you make it hard for me to answer. Christianity is for all people, "There is neither slave nor free, Greek nor Roman, man nor woman, for we are all one in Christ". It isn't limited to white people in the West. I believe that Jesus is God for a whole host of reasons, which can be broken down into three categories; my experience of prayer and of the Holy Spirit, the compelling person presented so honestly in the Gospels, the concept of Grace.

easyteller wrote:

Why is yours the right one?

The most important is Grace. Religions or belief systems where man has to achieve something divine are impossible burdens. All religions, philosophies and belief systems have the same starting point: there is something wrong with the world. Christianity says God has done all the hard work for us to make the world right again and we just have to accept it.

So, let me put it another way. I believe in Christ because my experience, the Bible and Grace all complement each other. For me, they are the missing chapter in Life but instead of just fitting into the book, they turn the plot totally on its head so that it actually becomes literature. Here is another way of explaining Grace. God in Heaven connects Himself to each person by a piece of string. Now through our selfish and pride-filled actions we cut the string. God is happy to just tie a knot in it again. But in tying the knot, He brings us closer to Him. We keep cutting the string and he keeps tying the knot again and again and again. All we have to do is acknowledge the knot has been made because God has done all the work.

easyteller wrote:

Do you accept that if you are wrong that you deserve to burn in hell for eternity for believing in the wrong God

If I am wrong then there is a different system in place than Christianity, or no system at all. In which case, Hell might not even exist. The question makes no sense outside of Christianity.

easyteller wrote:

Q2: ... Why couldn't God have found a better way of communicating his word, especially earlier on in history? ...

I have never been asked a question like this before and it took me a while to understand it. I guess your problem is that it took 1500 years after Christ before the French got a copy of the Bible in French and 1800 years until the Polynesians started getting theirs. In which case, what happens to the 1800 years of Polynesians who never got a chance to hear the Word of God?

God will judge them fairly, as He promises to judge everyone fairly. The Bible isn't like the Koran. God didn't choose a book as His communication device. Initially, in the Old Testament, He chose people who He talked to, either directly in the form of Moses or through prayer in the case of many of the Prophets. Those stories were then written down. He didn't give us a book first. His communication device was, Christians believe, as much as is possible for this to be the case with God, speech. This "speech" is what theologians call Revelation.

In the New Testament God didn't give us a book. He gave us Himself and He walked around and talked and laughed and ate with people. We were in the historical age by now and naturally records were made of what He did. Not just the Gospels speak of Jesus, but the apocryphal texts and the accounts of Roman and Jewish historians.

Now these amalgamated texts form the Bible and they were only translated into the vernacular languages from the Renaissance on because of technological difficulties (lack of a printing press) and cultural prejudices (the high place devoted to Latin).

The lack of cheap and readily available Bible texts did not stop people from hearing the Good News and trying it. So I don't think that the transmission of Revelation is a problem or not a problem for believing in the claims of Christ, I just think it is a thing with a history.

easyteller wrote:

Q3: Is it necessary for all the pain in the world in order for Gods plan to come to fruition...

No. God's plan didn't have the pain. Christians believe His plan had the friendship and the love and the happiness but also the Free Will. People cause this suffering and heartache in the world when they abuse that Free Will and put themselves before others or over others. Christianity is the story of how God is fixing this problem while maintaining the Free Will through Jesus.

Christians believe that in trying to replace God with their own abilities, humans have upset the fabric of our life and that is why things rot and go bad and there is disease and natural disasters. If we place ourselves in the role of God we will not do a good job and it only makes sense that things would go wrong.

So, Christians believe that Free Will abused is the way that the world got broken.

easyteller wrote:

Q4: WHy is Jesus's sacrfice considered so great?...

To a CHRISTian, Jesus is the CHRIST, the Annointed One, the Son of God. Christ is God. He is perfect and loving and just. He has not sinned. In accepting the Cross He took all the sins of the world, all that stuff talked about in Q3, and paid the price for it. All the sins (the abuses of Free Will that put myself in a place where I do not belong, either in relation to my family or friends, to strangers or to God) that I have committed, that I am committing and that I will commit were dealt with on that Cross and over those three days. That same thing applies to each person who ever lived, who is living and who will live. He tied all those knots of broken strings.

For God to become a man is sacrifice enough. Imagine the Creator going through puberty! But the idea that He would then die to save me?!? But not only me, everyone. Ever. And this sinless perfection is sent to be punished for the crimes I have committed! And to benefit from all this all He expects from me is acceptance? Its the greatest thing ever imagined. Even if you are not a Christian, you are stirred by the idea of a God who loves us that much.

If Christianity is true then every human who hears about Jesus in a real way and doesn't follow Him is in a dodgy position (I wouldn't say destined to Hell since judgement lies in the hands of the Lord) but they are there because they are not perfect. A perfect God can't tolerate imperfection. All of us have fallen short of being Gods. Now God has provided a bridge for us imperfect, often selfish, often greedy, often mean people to cross over to Him because He loves that good kernel of excellence inside each of us, but He did it by paying the price of Hell Himself. That is why the sacrifice is great.

Another point. 3 days in Hell. We may not know what Hell is specifically like but we know it is the worst place there is. Only our imaginations limit understanding the torment of hell. 3 days in Hell is not like 3 days in Mullingar.

easyteller wrote:

Q5: Why should God object to "a bunch of things in Levitical law"...

He doesn't object to that. He gave rules for people living in an exodus in the desert. Those rules don't apply now. The whole sacrifice system was a prophesy of what was to come with Jesus. He is clearly laying out a symbolic marker that the ultimate sacrifice will be paid by one who is perfect. He loves everyone (as can be seen by Jesus' pursuit of the cast-offs, the down and outs and the untouchables as His friends and followers).

easyteller wrote:

Q6: After the Israelite massacre of the Midianites... Now that's a morally uplifting story, isn't it?

No.

I don't understand it. I am studying it though and wrestling with it. It would take a while to lay out the 4 major theological perspectives that exist. I don't have that time. None of them satisfy me fully.

easyteller wrote:

Q7: At the moment, terrorism, for the most part, seems rooted in Islamic fanaticism, but biblically based religions have no room to put on self-righteous airs, because they too are responsible for terrorism on a smaller scale. ... Agree/Disagree?

I disagree.

easyteller wrote:

they too are responsible for terrorism on a smaller scale

Christians are responsible for violence on "Biblical" grounds to a far greater extent than Al Quaeda. The Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant wars of the last millenium in Europe, the extermination of races in "colonies", slavery, Northern Ireland since the Plantations... the list goes on and on and on. You are underestimating the scale of hatred Christians have demonstrated.

While the behviour of these Christians doesn't inspire confidence in their doctrines (which are warped and mutilated beyond recognition in many cases, see Paisley for example) it doesn't actually damage the claims that Jesus was the Christ.

If Christianity is true, then you would expect Christians to be just like everyone else. Nowhere are you promised that you will become saintly if you are a Christian. Jesus didn't come to save the perfect holy ones, he came to save the sick. Following Jesus isn't a magic wand that makes you perfect immediately. Christians still sin. Christians are as bad as everyone else. And people have hijaacked Christianity for their political or material or hatred-driven gains. The Crusades weren't permitted by the Bible. Neither were the sectarian wars on mainland Europe and neither is Paisley's anti-Catholic venom. But these people can still be Christians because God still loves them and can still find something beautiful in them. Its like the U2 song, "Grace finds beauty/goodness, out of everything".

Excelsior

easyteller wrote:

Q8: The biblical has ordered/said the following... list of Old Testament meaness from God

That is not actually a question. Quoting byte-sized portions of the Bible and trying to build an argument is what fundamentalists do. I am not fluent enough in the Bible to know the contexts of each of these passages. But there are a couple of things to remember. The first is that the Bible is written in a number of literary genres. Not all of them are history. The second is that these are all Old Testament passages, where the picture of God is limited by the fact that His most important characteristics have be pointed at, instead of incarnated in the form of Jesus and finally, to an extent, the God who created, if He was actually God, would have a different moral criteria then we would so that taking people's lives would not be neccesarily wrongful (eg. Jesus).

easyteller wrote:

Q9: Some people feel that hell is just a metaphor. Do you feel the same way about heaven?

No.

easyteller wrote:

Q10: Was Eve Perfect? If she was, she would not have taken the fruit. If she wasn't, God created imperfection?

Already answered.

~~~~

I hope this satisfies you easyteller. Sorry about the delay.

Manach

My orthodox Catholic response would be to direct you to Vatican.va for the correct answers.
The following are my responses ad libbing and without the benifit of looking at the other poster's responses.

a Christian could have peace knowing that the vast majority of people who ever lived will be spending eternity in Hell suffering unbelievable pain and anguish
Damned if I know <small pun>. I image/guess it would be simply be akin to the outcircle of Hell as describe by Dante for virtuous Pagans such as Virgil.

So, the responses to the polite Athesit is ...
Q1 : I would argue that the Church (Catholic) is international & for the good of all mankind. Even if you go to mass in them thar forgein parts,
the language is different but the ritual and sacrefice of communion is the univeral constant.

Q2 : Perhaps it is just me being a Latinophile <thats not rude by the way >, I'd respone with a quote from a named source:
"Spanish to talk to men, French to talk to Women, but Latin to talk to God" - Charles V.

Q3: I would say the people through out history have created a surplus of pain and suffering without any reference to God.

Q4: I am guessing that because it was voluntry. Jesus was aware of the majesty of the Father and the 3 days in Hell withdrawn from that would make Mel Gibson's gorefeast akin to a clipped nail.

Any awkward question relating to the OT I will hand over to my Protestant colleagues.
or I can argue that while God is a constant force, that human understanding of God has evolved
from a tribal totem carried into battle to a God of love and reason, and the Bible was created
to show this evolution in action. I believe offhand there are several Jewish Misrahs on this subject.
Q5 Q6 Q8 ... see above.

Q7 : And here was I thinking that people who talk about the unstoppable march of history were all extinct. The religious impulse is inherit in most societies and will not just go away.
FYI the Arab terrorist can make full use of such secular devices as the Internet, yet still mis-interpret Muslim beliefs to the horror of the majority of its decent believers.

Q9 : IMHO, people's imaginations seem to fail with heaven, but Hell definitely has occupied the imagination, check out some of El Greco’s painting.

Q 10 : Sure are not all women still perfect, < at least that is what I am told to believe >

Perhaps some of my responses come across as flippant, but where else can I be part of an organisation that makes a saint out of someone who says.
"I believe because it is absurd"

omnicorp

There is no ONE TRUE religion, they are all right nin there own right, all involve a higher spirit, they just grew up differently according to the Cultural and Physical Lamdscape of the Time.