Baghdad Year Zero

Hobbes

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

I still haven't finished reading all of it, but it is pretty disturbing. Anyone who thinks the country isn't getting raped needs to read this.

What I have read so far only means Iraq is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Tiriel

and how then is Bush doing so well in the elections??? someone explain please!! is it just lack of decent opposition?

Memnoch

Cork_girl wrote:

and how then is Bush doing so well in the elections??? someone explain please!! is it just lack of decent opposition?

because half the americans are completely and utterly ignorant of the real facts of the situation,
not to mention the constant propaganda they are fed by the likes of fox news and co.

I think many americans have the attitude that they don't really care what happens to the iraqi's, but they care about being attacked by the "terrorists", the bush admin tells these people that they will "keep those damn terrorists" away and bring "freedom and democracy to iraq" and the american's are happy with that. At least half of the country doesn't seem to be intersted in educating itself regarding "reality".

Tiriel

yeah I guess the Americans are being told what they want to hear but surely someone realises what is going on???!!! I mean look at the figures.. there are more fatalities happening everyday in Iraq then when all of this started. there have been massive American fatalities?? how can people be so blind?

Hobbes

I am about 3/4 through reading but it appears from the report that the reason the fighting is getting worse and the death of so many contractors is because the Iraqi people are copping on that the country is getting plundered by the US/UK (and whatever other countries that are putting companies in there).

Memnoch

tbh before reading this i always thought that the killing of foreign "workers" and "contracters" was just random acts of violence in a society that has become completely chaotic due to the invasion.

But reading this report sheds an entirely new light onto the matter. Makes one realise that there is direct motivation behind the killing of these people. Because the iraqi's percieve them as plunderers, and as depriving them of jobs. Go NeoCons and Paul Bremer i guess!

Hobbes

Finished it... it is totally mindblowing.

I'm like you Memnoch, I thought the contractors were being killed because they were easy targets but thats far from the truth.

Anyone thinking of the poor contractors. Currently insurance runs $10K a week for a contractor to work in Iraq. So they would be hardly poor to be working there now, and I doubt you would have your casual contractor there.

It also makes sense now why some captors are just demanding money .

I also only just noticed the author! Her "No Logo" book was pretty good (although a bit long winded).

ionapaul

Good article, very interesting. Makes you think that once the dust has settled a bit, if the Iraqi people get to vote in a free and fair election (as I think they will at some point), al-Sistani will gain power. I would like to know more about him, knowing only what I see on the television, read online and in newspapers, he seems like he has the best interests of the majority of the Iraqi people at heart. Course, that doesn't mean much, but is a hell of a lot better than Saddam and the Baathists were.
Is your employee is kidnapped in Iraq, are you (the employer) obliged to pay the ransom? I know that in Colombia and in the Caucauses the employers often pay up to free their workers. Of course, those kidnapped in Iraqi (particularly Westerners) are much more likely to be murdered without any demand for money...

Captain Trips

Memnoch wrote:

tbh before reading this i always thought that the killing of foreign "workers" and "contracters" was just random acts of violence in a society that has become completely chaotic due to the invasion.

Any time you read contractor read $8,000/week for either oil work or security work. The private contractors usually mean security, like Blackwater, and contractor means oil/pipeline worker.

dathi1

I just read this...totally mind blowing and very informative..I know its speculation but there was something very sinister about the bombs on shia shrines pre constitution sign up. CIA dirty tricks campaign once again...I'd be very sceptical on the Church attacks today as well, when we're in the middle of a pre Fallujah reinvasion massacre for the US presidential election.

Captain Trips

dathi1 wrote:

I just read this...totally mind blowing and very informative..I know its speculation but there was something very sinister about the bombs on shia shrines pre constitution sign up. CIA dirty tricks campaign once again...I'd be very sceptical on the Church attacks today as well, when we're in the middle of a pre Fallujah reinvasion massacre for the US presidential election.

The media spin is incredible "US and Iraqi forces battle rebels in Fallujah" was on CNN recently. I suppose it's simply newspeak again, rebranding the enemy.

bonkey

dathi1 wrote:

I'd be very sceptical on the Church attacks today as well, when we're in the middle of a pre Fallujah reinvasion massacre for the US presidential election.

Skeptical how? As far as I can see, most analysts are saying that increases in violence and casualties in Iraq are only damaging Bush's re-election chances?

Are you seeing some bigger game-plan where he's gonna turn this all around?

Or am I mis-interpreting who you're being skeptical of?

jc

dathi1

As far as I can see, most analysts are saying that increases in violence and casualties in Iraq are only damaging Bush's re-election chances?

I duuno...I was watching one analyst on CNBC Tv earlier and he said that recent attacks on Sammara by US forces seem to benefit Bush as they give the impression that they are winning (In the US) against the resistance. Perhaps the targeting of Churches supposedly by "insurgents" could bolster swing voters in the US that Bush is their best bet against Zarquwai etc? I accept that overall violence could have a negative effect unless is being handed out disproportionately by US soldiers in Fallujah etc..

the_syco

I'm going to say a few things. Some of the things may sound fimilair, as they were the "original" plans for this war.

a) Shock & Awe Iraq. I don't mean the pansy attempt Bush did. I mean totally oblitirate the Iraqi army, and the Ministers, using A-10, and high altitude bombers. Before this, send in special ops, to infiltrate anti-Goverment communities, and get current intel (not intel from exiles, etc, where most of the info for the war was gotten).

b) Go in, in force. Bring in enough military to quell anything. Bring a very large police force. This was one of the biggest mistakes. When the war was "won", there were no police. I don't count the soldiers, as they're trained to kill, not to be the police. If there was a proper police, the Iraqi's would have greater fate in the US, and not have to arm themselves to ensure that they don't get robbed.

c) Get the armys' engineers to fix the electricity stations, and find people from Iraq to do the manual jobs of rebuilding the country. This may be a bit costly, but it'd be nothing compared to the contractors there now. Iraqi's would also be able to talk to the locals to see where the main problems were.

A and B were the "original" plans. C is a bit of the original plans (the engineers), and a bit of what I'd do.

Anyone thinking of the poor contractors. Currently insurance runs $10K a week for a contractor to work in Iraq. So they would be hardly poor to be working there now, and I doubt you would have your casual contractor there.

No-one would go there for anything less. Don't tell me that you think you'd go there for minimum pay? The only way the companies will get people there is to give them alot of money to do it.

You ask about how the Americans are blind to what is happening? Its simple. Some don't care anymore. Its happening so much, that its come part of everday life. And thats sad.

As for the contractors being kidnapped; its all to do with money. They sometimes add a little "free me mates from prison" message to make sure none of the hard-core fanatics cop-on that they're doing it for the money, and don't care about the "religous cause". If they don't get their money(mostly, the companies pay for their release behind the scenes, through a middle man), they release a video, demanding some holy/"for the cause" deed, or else the contractor gets his head chopped off.



I'm still pro-US, but I've become very anti-Bush in the last year or so, esp because he didn't take the advice of any of his military leaders, taking the advice from civilians instead :mad:

Sparks

Geez, syco, why not just "nuke the site from orbit"? :rolleyes:

Victor

the_syco wrote:

I'm still pro-US, but I've become very anti-Bush in the last year or so, esp because he didn't take the advice of any of his military leaders, taking the advice from civilians instead :mad:

Well, apparently he did follow the advice of some generals. Unfortunately they have MBAs.

Moriarty

Sparks wrote:

Geez, syco, why not just "nuke the site from orbit"? :rolleyes:

There's much to be said for using an overwhelming force in situations like Iraq. The safest approach (both for the troops, and the general population once the 'main' war is won) is generally to send in as many troops as you can, then withdraw them later on if they're surplus to demand.

Unfortunatly, they attempted to do Iraq on the cheap. It's now a classic case of throwing good money after bad instead of just stumping up a bit more at the start. That's all down to politics and public perception.

dahamsta

Fascinating story, although I have to say I'm a little bit surprised people don't accuse Klein of the same sort of biased opinions that Moore is famous for. They both speculate and draw conclusions after all; they both provide supporting evidence for their assertions (although many are too lazy to go and look). Is it because Klein makes a little bit more of an effort to tone down the rhetoric, or just because Moore is an ugly and Klein is a chick?

I'm sending this story to my buddy in Clark County btw, with the author information at the start of the article removed so they don't make any judgements before reading it. If they read it. Worth a shot though.

adam

luckat

I can't see the point of "going in there" and obliterating people. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. Negotiation, diplomacy and working with people's personal interests work much better.

billy the squid

(ot) syco is there any chance you could do something with your sig its pushing half your message off the screen (/ot)

Hobbes that was a fascinating article there, I certainly puts the recent kidnappings for rancom in a new light, I mean, if 500,000 workers are put out of work at the stroke of a pen by foreign authorities/conglomerates how else are they going to support their families. With no jobs, no electricity to power their factories, where else is the money going to come from.

Nick_oliveri

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AmenToThat

dathi1 wrote:

I just read this...totally mind blowing and very informative..I know its speculation but there was something very sinister about the bombs on shia shrines pre constitution sign up. CIA dirty tricks campaign once again...I'd be very sceptical on the Church attacks today as well, when we're in the middle of a pre Fallujah reinvasion massacre for the US presidential election.

I actually dont think the full assualt on Fallujah will take place till after the elections
The last campaign cost a thousands lives give or take and they only managed to get through the industrial region in ther southeast of the city hardly even venturing into the residential areas.
To fully take the city will claim many thousands of lives and make Najaf seem like a playground fight so I just dont think the Americans will chance it before the elections and especially now that that part of the world is celebrating ramadan.

The whole thing is a sham anyways!
The Americans are giving the reason of Zarqawai and his band of nuts as the excuse to launch the assualt on the city!
But it just doesnt add up..........

The Americans are saying that the residents have to hand Zarqawai over but they arrested the leading negotiator for the Fallujah residents on friday as he left a mosque south of the city, why would you do this if your trying to acheive a peaceful outcome?
In any case one look at events in Northern Ireland will tell you that its an impossible ask in any case........how many times over the course of the 30 years did residents hand over "terrorists" within their communities on either side of the divide not to many that I can recall and why is this?
Because they were to bloody scared thats why!
Yet the people of Fallujah are expected to hand over a load of nuts who are willing to blow themselves up?
In any case I dont think hes in the city.
He seems to be one step ahead of the Americans all the time and knows full well whats about to be visited on Fallujah so I reckon hes long since left the area.
Knowing all this and adding in what everyone knows about the American attitudes in Iraq I think the Americans are simply hell bent on reducing the city to rubble and tough **** for those in the way :mad:

pork99

Moriarty wrote:

There's much to be said for using an overwhelming force in situations like Iraq. The safest approach (both for the troops, and the general population once the 'main' war is won) is generally to send in as many troops as you can, then withdraw them later on if they're surplus to demand.

Of course before the invasion there was a queue around the block of senior serving and former US military officers saying that the occupation of Iraq would require at least 500,000 troops (they went in with around 200,000) and these officers were ignored or sacked.

Clinton banged some fat chick and the impeachment procedings started, Bush's incompetence costs a few thousand lives, creates an open ended security nightmare and nothing happens. How f'ed up is that? (I'm reminded of that bumper sticker "what's worse, screwing an intern or screwing the country?")

Hairy Homer

pork99 wrote:

Clinton banged some fat chick

Now that's just unkind......




And anyway, it was only a gobjob, not the full cigar.

Well, you know what I mean.....