Government should increase TG4 funding to €44 pa - report

Round Cable

Just saw this on Eircomnet from the Irish Times, it suggests that TG4 are struggling and may depend on more English programming, I take it the Government couldn't spare the full E50 note Sorry couldn't help it, any way looking forward to the new series of The Underdogs...

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/4198844?view=Eircomnet

Elmo

That's an increase from 30million to 44million euro per annum.

TG4 are a well deserving organisation.

Give them the licence fee, see how well RTE can cope on 44million euro per year.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

Give them the licence fee, see how well RTE can cope on 44million euro per year.

We're actually discussing this on the Politics board at:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1997908&posted=1#post1997908

where, among other things, we seem to be discovering that RTE already seem capable of running a channel with not much more than a 44 million euro subsidy - or 100 million for two.

TG4 are undoubtedly lovely people. But they cost too much already.

Elmo

where, among other things, we seem to be discovering that RTE already seem capable of running a channel with not much more than a 44 million euro subsidy - or 100 million for two.

Honesty Whale, Do you think that RTE have ever been capable of running a channel.

I seem to remember Cathal Goan, as Ceannis of TnaG. Wonder why he got the job of DG at RTE?

Wonder how much RnaG and Lyric Cost to run?

ishmael whale

That's Mr Whale to you.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. As we've discussed in the thread linked above, the practical fact is that RTE reach far more people with home produced programmes with a comparable level of funding per channel to TG4.

I've said in the earlier thread (but maybe you want to repeat it all here) that I'm totally open to suggestions to improve either RTE or the use of the licence fee. But in a straight comparison, RTE as an institution scores higher than TG4

That's not to say TG4 don't have some talented individuals or that RTE don't have some plonkers. Its simply that TG4 as an institution is soaking up a load of resources with not much to show for it, while RTE can at least show considerable results for the resources given to it.

Round Cable

ishmael whale wrote:

That's Mr Whale to you.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. As we've discussed in the thread linked above, the practical fact is that RTE reach far more people with home produced programmes with a comparable level of funding per channel to TG4.

With the TV license RTE have a huge edge over TG4, not to mention quantity does not equal quality, programming made by TG4 tends to be entertaining, while RTE on the other hand.....

ishmael whale

Round Cable wrote:

With the TV license RTE have a huge edge over TG4,.....

That's simply not the case. Read the other thread, the figures supplied by Elmo. RTE seem to get around 50 million per channel out of the licence fee. TG4 get about 30 million off the Govt, an incredibly large amount when you think of their puny audience (or, more correctly, audient). So RTE clearly do not have a 'huge edge' from the licence fee.

If RTE were funded to the same extent as TG4 pro rata based on audience, they'd be getting of the order of 400 million. TG4 are the one's with the 'huge edge' in state funding.

Round Cable wrote:

not to mention quantity does not equal quality, programming made by TG4 tends to be entertaining, while RTE on the other hand.....

Again, look at the thread linked above. Its all very well to claim that TG4 programmes have some esoteric value that's hard to quantify. But, in reality, as they don't attract any significant audience its an uphill struggle for you. Certainly asserting that TG4 is more 'entertaining' than RTE seems a little hard to justify when its audience is so tiny. Entertaining to who?

The simple fact, again well gone through in the thread above, is that TG4 is massively overfunded and its output is mostly unwatched by the public.

Round Cable

ishmael whale wrote:

Again, look at the thread linked above. Its all very well to claim that TG4 programmes have some esoteric value that's hard to quantify. But, in reality, as they don't attract any significant audience its an uphill struggle for you. Certainly asserting that TG4 is more 'entertaining' than RTE seems a little hard to justify when its audience is so tiny. Entertaining to who?

Entertaining to me, with Nip/Tuck, The OC and The Underdogs, I have more reason to watch TG4 than RTE.

Also if the Government gave them E30 million and no TV license let's see them do as well.

ishmael whale

Round Cable wrote:

Entertaining to me, with Nip/Tuck, The OC and The Underdogs, I have more reason to watch TG4 than RTE.

This is tiptoeing round the issue. TG4 have a tiny audience, and 30 million is a ridiculously large amount to be handing out in a subsidy for less than 3% of the viewing public.

Round Cable wrote:

Also if the Government gave them E30 million and no TV license let's see them do as well.

You seem to be missing the point. The simple fact is that RTE attract a far larger audience with not much more of a subsidy.

I know that the conventional wisdom is we are meant to marvel at all TG4 achieve with limited resouces compared to RTE's bloat - i.e. the old line about RTE carrying more passengers than CIE. To be honest, up until the thread on the politics board, I pretty much accepted that kind of view without much reflection.

The myth does not stand up to scrutiny. The empiror has no clothes, TG4 is buck naked, they have a tiny audience and a massive state handout. RTE gets more than ten times the audience. Pro rata, RTE are four times as efficient. Thems simply the facts, and a flat assertion that you personally find some of their programmes entertaining do nothing to refute them.

begbie

Round Cable wrote:

With the TV license RTE have a huge edge over TG4, not to mention quantity does not equal quality, programming made by TG4 tends to be entertaining, while RTE on the other hand.....

They also produce some entertaining Irish programmes like the crazy painting guy's show, the dating show (not sure if that's still on) and that new Hector replacement show: Neelo or something like that.

Elmo

RTE earn 92,000,000 from advertising on RTE 1 AND 2
RTE have the licence fee which gets them 130,000,000 for radio, TV and Performing Groups

2 TV channels
4 Radio Stations
5 Performing Groups
total 10
I am sure that the all don't get an equal portion of the TV licence but if they did they would each get 13,000,000est

92,000,000 + 13,000,000est = 105,000,000

RTE Two gets 52,500,000est yet it can only provide

4 news shows
The Panel
The Big Bow Wow
Choosen
Stew
Rodge And Podge
ID and The Den

Yes thats value for money.

And I am not mentioning the Advertising revenue from Radio.

I assume that RTE give there money out like so
IPU
RTE News
RTE Sport
RTE Entertainment
RTE Drama

News and Sport gets most of the money. IMO.

Both RTE AND TG4 are efficent. however TG4 have employeed people in the indepentend sector to do a better job then anyone in RTE. Most of the good shows on RTE come from Independent producers. RTE and TV3 should give more money to the Independent producer.

Don't just leave it to TG4.

IMO RTE is The Empoire with no clothes AND have such a big aduience without any of them having the guts to say for god sake make a show.

TV3 are naturists.

I am taking Irish Shows as clothes. Lets face it if you're naked more people would look.

An bhfuil tu ag magu fum?

ishmael whale

http://www.rte.ie/about/organisation/annualreport/2003eng.pdf

Page 19 of the RTE annual report apportions the 2003 €150 million Licence Fee as follows:

An Post/DCMNR/Broadcasting Fund €16.5 million

Minority RTÉ Services (RTÉ RnaG/RTÉ Performing Groups/RTÉ lyric fm/TG4 Support) €34.5 million

RTÉ Radio 1 €12 million

RTÉ Network 2 €30 million

RTÉ One €57 million

So, at present, TG4 gets about the same amount of funding as RTE 2. That seems like very generous treatment. And RTE One’s level of funding is comparable to TG4 - twice as much funding for a vastly larger audience does not seem excessive.

Bear in mind that the advertising income really just reflects that RTE are better at attracting an audience. And equally reflect that the amounts of money given to all three channels combined is only about the same as what the UK puts into Welsh language programming – so pretending that RTE don’t need to attract a significant amount of additional revenue when they have to compete with UK stations with vastly more resources is simply unrealistic.

(Incidently, you might be interested in the Sunday Business Post article that I comment on here: http://muppet.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2016905&postcount=30)

All the time I stress, if there is state support for broadcasting it should be to support some Irish angle – either a cultural angle and/or a support of local enterprise angle. My essential point is that, to the extent that it is failing to attract any significant audience for most of its home produced shows, TG4 is failing to make any significant contribution to the cultural landscape. Equally, to the extent that it has to have an Irish language element in the programmes it commissions (unless it becomes a complete joke), it is painting such local producers as it does support into a corner as their programmes will necessarily have extremely limited appeal.

I utterly agree with you on the objective – that the public should benefit from innovative Irish programming. But TG4 just isn’t the right vehicle to achieve this.

Elmo

RTÉ Network 2 €30 million

Yeah RTÉ 2 is way underfunded, they really nead to make some TV for the channel. You know they made a loss on RTÉ 2 last year. :rolleyes:

My question is does the 30 million include all of the sporting rights etc.

But I understand where your coming from Mr. Whale. We could continue to go around in circles.

150,000,000 + 92,000,000 + what ever is made on ad rev on Radio = no money for RTE 2.

Sorry just to state how I feel on about TV in general:-

RTÉ need to start to make a move
TV3 need to start making shows for prime time
TG4 a leave it alone (prehaps they don't need anymore money)

Elmo

According to their Annual Report

RTE 2 HAD

27 MILL (Ad Rev)
1.2MILL (Sponsorship)
34 MILL (Licence Fee)
63 MILL Total

RTE 2 spent 73 MILL

I still think TG4 do better on what they have. Just looking at what they make in terms of programming. I not taking profitablity into account here or viewers.

Just in General. Perhaps I am the only one who sees no value for RTE 2.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

I still think TG4 do better on what they have. Just looking at what they make in terms of programming. I not taking profitablity into account here or viewers.

But, boarding on repeating ourselves, how do you value ‘better’? The simplest measure is audience. To the extent that they manage to attract enough of an audience to be able to earn a significant contribution from advertising, RTE 2 can at least show that they are not a lost cause and therefore I, for one, would be happy to see them get any extra funding going with the proviso that it went on home produced programmes.

TG4, on the other hand, cannot show any objective indicator of success – either in terms of audience or income. When they claim 'critical success', I really find myself asking what that's supposed to mean. Clearly the few people watching them must see some merit in the channel – but they are so few it really must pose the question of how they have any right to expect the State to provide so much financing for such a tiny audience.

Which leads me back to the thought that part of the limitation of RTE may very well be the drain on State resources that TG4 represents.

The UK licence fee generates £2.8 billion. The real miracle in Irish broadcasting is that RTE manage to pull in a significant audience when faced with readily available alternatives in the form of UK based channels with vastly more resources. TG4 seems to get a positive reaction from many people, even though they don’t watch it, because they have a misconception that TG4 gets much less State support than RTE. This is a misconception I shared before our debates on this issue. I think many people would revise their opinion if they knew that TG4 gets much the same subsidy as RTE 2.

(UK licence fee info comes from this link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/report2004/pdfs/financial_statements_review.pdf)

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

TG4, on the other hand, cannot show any objective indicator of success – either in terms of audience or income. When they claim 'critical success', I really find myself asking what that's supposed to mean. Clearly the few people watching them must see some merit in the channel – but they are so few it really must pose the question of how they have any right to expect the State to provide so much financing for such a tiny audience.

It's a public service ishmael
Think of all the kids going to Gaelscóileanna these days who come home to watch the cartoons in Irish.
The state invests in many things for worth other than pure commercialism.
You may disagree with that,I don't but I'd respectively suggest you lobby your local politicians if you want an end to such wastefullness like national art galleries,museums libraries and such like...
TG4 is not specifically designed to make money, if it does it's a bonus, if it doesn't in my view it's money culturally well spent.

Elmo

So, at present, TG4 gets about the same amount of funding as RTE 2

Mr. Whale my point about what TG4 makes with 30,000,000 euro, not what they acheive with audiences. RTE 2 have 73,000,000 in funding (including Advertising fee, which many people disagree with since they get the licence fee) and yet only reach 10% of their audience and yet only make a few TV show. It is time that RTE 2 start making TV shows for Prime Time TV.

For they 73 mill RTE 2 don't do an awful lot. forget about audience.

If RTE 2 only had the 30,000,000 that they receive from the licence fee I would expect them to produce the type and amount of programming that TG4 have produced over the last 7 years. BUT THEY DON'T EVEN DO THAT WITH 73,000,000 EURO.

how do you value ‘better’?

I see it as providing quality Irish shows to their Audience. RTE 2 does not do this.

The BBC are in difficultly explaining the purpose of BBC 3 AND 4 as they don't reach the audience share or attact viewers to digital.

Elmo

how do you value ‘better’? The simplest measure is audience

I assume that TV3 and RTE2 are a success. Yet they produce very little programming for the Irish Audience.

I think they are both a disgrace.

ishmael whale

Earthman wrote:

It's a public service

A public service needs to do something that benefits the public. TG4 is reaching too few people to pretend that its achieving anything.

I'm not expecting it to make a profit, but I am expecting it to do something. I don't know anything about the funding of the National Gallery. I expect it makes a large loss. But its justification is that it attracts a lot of visitors and that the works it holds are regarded as valuable examples of art. Again, I have no idea what the National Art collection is worth, but if the place burned to the ground I expect it would cost billions to assemble a similar collection from scratch - even if it was possible to find pieces of similar quality on sale.

But TG4 seems to lose on all scores. It drains as much from the public purse as RTE 2, but few watch its output. The only people benefiting from its existence are the people making a living from making its largely unwatched programmes. It strains credulity to say that its output has some intrinsic cultural merit when it is so totally ignored.

It is remarkable that they have managed to keep up a good public image, but this is only based on shallow myths that their subsidy is a fraction of RTE's and on the myth that they have managed to attract some sections of the national audience. As you can see from my comment on the Sunday Business Post article on the politics board (linked above) they base this second myth on blatent misrepresentation of their viewer stats.

I can understand myself (i.e. I have this failing too) that if a dearly held myth is exposed it takes a while before we accept the inevitable truth and change our opinion. All I can say to people is consider the facts of the matter. TG4 has no clothes.

Elmo

TG4 has no clothes.

Mr. Whale

My understanding of the Emperor has no clothes is that the Emperor is a rich man who spends a lot of money on designers to create him beautiful clothes. He is an obnoxis brat that few people like. So the Designers pretent to make him beautiful clothes and get him to believe that he is were only the best. The emperor is filled with joy with wonderful clothes and well goes out start naked But in the crowd there is a child that put it to him that he is naked.

I think you will find that and with out repeating myself and yourself (but which you seem to have no reply) RTE 2 gets as much as TG4 (and because of audience gets 43mill more) however RTE 2 seems to be the obnoxis brat who have pleanty of well paid producers making them very little. And everyone just like you goes around think how wonderful they are, that they can get so many good show and sporting events. Wow they do their job well.

Yet look closer Mr. Whale you will find that RTE 2 gets 30,000,000 and spends in on sporting rights and American TV shows, and a tiny amount of Orginal Irish TV.

TG4 on the other hand can only spend its 30,000,000 as it make little on advertising (3mill which it spends on American TV). So TG4 must keep to tight budgets, while RTE 2 can spend part of its 30,000,000 mill getting a new look, Let me be that child.

RTE 2 YOU HAVE NO CLOTHES.

RTE 2 could if it wanted have more viewers and be the 2nd most watch channel in Ireland if it deside to put some clothes on.

TG4 have to produce irish shows as they must be in Irish, They don't have the luxuary of wall to wall American Shows.

I hope you can agree with me without repeating yourself the RTE 2 has just as much public funding but doesn't provide half of what TG4 do.

Weather you agree with TG4 or disagree with it I hope you can agree that it currently in regard Irish output(weather or not anyone is looking) produces more and provides better quality then RTE 2.

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

A public service needs to do something that benefits the public.

But it is,it's providing an Irish language TV service for a small portion of the public.
Like many public services a majority of the public may not be using them, but does that mean we should take them away?

I contend that it does not and you must show me why this public service is any different from any other loss making public service and why the needs of it's audience are any less than the needs of other public service users.

I'd also like to see where you can show the demerit in using public funds to make such a huge part of Irish culture ie the language widely available.
If as I suspect it's just a personal belief, then take it up with the politicians and argue for the deconstruction of all public and cultural services not just the ones you don't support.
Lets see how popular that position is at the polls.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

I hope you can agree with me without repeating yourself the RTE 2 has just as much public funding but doesn't provide half of what TG4 do.

Weather you agree with TG4 or disagree with it I hope you can agree that it currently in regard Irish output(weather or not anyone is looking) produces more and provides better quality then RTE 2.

I’m not avoiding the question. I’m pointing out that TG4 gets a very small audience and a significant portion of such audience as it manages to attract is for programmes without a language content – e.g. old English language films or sporting events. This suggests that there is no real need to give TG4 more money to make more programmes that don’t get watched. If you were building on TG4’s ‘success’ you’d be giving them money to put on more old movies and to cover more ladies GAA events.

I don’t accept its programmes are of particularly high quality, so I find the argument that its programmes are better than RTE hard to accept. To be honest I think its just reverse engineering – i.e. TG4 exists so we have to think of a reason why. ‘Critical acclaim’ is easy to say, but hard to substantiate.

I don’t watch it that much, and I accept that the very few people that watch their output must see something in it, but you have to accept that the overwhelming majority of Irish people find TG4’s output pointless. For my part, I see its output as largely repeating what is already done elsewhere with all the flaws of imitation – here’s Blind Date like it might be done for the crack at a Macra meeting, there’s some guy trying to do a slightly whacky cookery show and failing, here’s some people talking earnestly about something but failing to hold my attention. That’s my picture of TG4. The only programme I’ve ever seen on it that left an impact was – you guessed it – Power Rangers dubbed into An Teanga.

The emperor’s clothes analogy is correct. TG4 purport to produce valuable programmes tapping into a vibe unreached by other channels with much less resources. I repeat that certainly I up to recently, and I believe most people, would never have believed that TG4 was getting the same subsidy as RTE2, and half the subsidy of RTE 1 from the way they talk the talk. And I don’t think anyone truly appreciates the extent to which the viewership of the Ladies GAA final can dwarf the audience of their other shows.

Your point about advertising is not valid. The fact that RTE 2 can attract more revenue simply reflects that, for all its warts, it can attract more of an audience and so is simply more relevant to the Irish broadcasting landscape. And its hardly fair to berate RTE 2 for showing foreign programmes, when old English movies are one of the mainstays of TG4’s audience.

You can decry the need to attract advertising, and make the acknowledged point that it muddies the public service waters. But, as you can see from the information I supplied above, it is simply a fact that Irish broadcasters have to compete with UK channels that have vastly more resources.

Earthman wrote:

I contend that it does not and you must show me why this public service is any different from any other loss making public service and why the needs of it's audience are any less than the needs of other public service users.
……….If as I suspect it's just a personal belief, then take it up with the politicians and argue for the deconstruction of all public and cultural services not just the ones you don't support. .

With respect, you’re trying to make a vast leap from TG4’s failure to contribute anything meaningful to Irish life with, for example, RTE’s success in continuing to attract a significant audience with a subsidy comparable to TG4. My fear is that we could, conceivably, be left with nothing – as an underfunded RTE would ultimately lose out to UK competition and we would be left with TG4 broadcasting to the void. This fear is compounded by the discovery that TG4 actually accounts for a very significant portion of State broadcasting resources – a fact that receives very little public attention.

Can I suggest as well that, when it is simply a fact that TG4 gets a tiny audience for so much of its output, that pretending my view that its output is simply not relevant is a ‘personal’ belief is truly getting things the wrong way round. TG4 is irrelevant to the Irish cultural landscape. Take my answer above when this point was first made. The National Gallery attracts an audience, so if someone says ‘why are we shelling out all that dough hanging canvases on walls’ they can be told ‘because it packs in the punters. They like it.’. If you’re dealing with a Scrooge who says ‘well if they like it make’em pay’ you can respond ‘We’d have to charge the punter a lot, poor people couldn’t get in etc etc’. Finally you could impress Mr Scrooge by telling him how much the collection was worth. There’s some content.

Now, with TG4 there’s simply nothing to say. It costs a bundle in Irish broadcasting terms. Its not getting an audience. Much as I’m open to the idea that its worth spending a few bob on things of cultural merit, even if they don’t attract much of an audience, its hard to justify dodgy cookery programmes as being up there with the Caravaggio. (And the Caravaggio gets an audience.)

The boots on the other foot. TG4 costs the earth, and few are watching. Where’s the cultural merit?

Elmo

First off mr. whale prehaps you could sit down and watch TG4 before considering that the do not produce quality shows.

Yes they show foreign imports, In prime time they show a foreign lanuage film.

For every import that RTE 2 (oh and I am not discussing RTE 1, I think that they have plenty of good and bad shows but at least they produce most of them) I can name an Irish show on TG4.

(And the Caravaggio gets an audience.)

Does have you gone to see it resently? How many Irish people (not tourists) go to the national Gallery? I was there once. Not saying I shouldn't go again.

For my part, I see its output as largely repeating what is already done elsewhere with all the flaws of imitation – here’s Blind Date like it might be done for the crack at a Macra meeting, there’s some guy trying to do a slightly whacky cookery show and failing, here’s some people talking earnestly about something but failing to hold my attention. That’s my picture of TG4. The only programme I’ve ever seen on it that left an impact was – you guessed it – Power Rangers dubbed into An Teanga.

Bia 'S Bothar I beleive is the show your talking about here, have you read any of the Irish Critics who tend to talk about this show quite alot. Seems like a good show to me, would be for me.

7La
An Tuath Nua
Feilte
Nuach TG4
Neelo
Underdogs
Comhra
Ardan
Ard San Aer
Pop 4
An Taibhdhearc
Timpell Na Tire
Inis Cuil
Craiceann - An Scéal
Se Mo Loach
Ros Na Run

An thats just some of this week
Go on whale name the Irish Shows on RTE 2 for some of this week.

You will see that it is the SPI(Screen Producers Ireland) that are asking for the increase not TG4 why are the SPI asking for the increase, because TV3 won't talk to Irish Producers and RTE2 waste there money on Soccer, GAA and Imports, but if it is what people are watching then sure why not. Oh wait isn't that what they watch on TG4.

Elmo

Where’s the cultural merit?

The Irish Lanuage, they are trying to support it.

I know your arguement don't repeat yourself.

Mine is

RTE2 get just as much and do **** ALL

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

I
With respect, you’re trying to make a vast leap from TG4’s failure to contribute anything meaningful to Irish life with, for example, RTE’s success in continuing to attract a significant audience with a subsidy comparable to TG4.

There are many , many programmes on RTÉ which are of public service importance which wouldnt be there if there was not a licence.
You seem to be quantifying a "meaningfull contribution" by virtue of audience size something which public service broadcasting by it's nature should never have to pander to.
Public service broadcasting is broadcasting provided for a non self supporting audience.
By the way I know of kids who rush home from their GaelScóil to watch cartoons on TG4-thats how I quantify contribution by the way.

The National Gallery attracts an audience, so if someone says ‘why are we shelling out all that dough hanging canvases on walls’ they can be told ‘because it packs in the punters. They like it.’. If you’re dealing with a Scrooge who says ‘well if they like it make’em pay’ you can respond ‘We’d have to charge the punter a lot, poor people couldn’t get in etc etc’. Finally you could impress Mr Scrooge by telling him how much the collection was worth. There’s some content.

So the national Gallery is justified by it's audience, we're back to that are we.
You seem to be advocating no public service at all unless it makes a profit or has X level of audience.
You may as well withdraw all non paying public services while you're at it.
Heck lets abolish all taxes and let people pay for stuff in full, let the profitable things survive and if anybody wants something out of the loop well tough...

I don't think so Tim.
You should know by now the world doesn't work like that.

ishmael whale

I have watched as much of TG4 as I need to form an opinion. The opinion formed is shared by most of the rest of the population, judging from TG4’s tiny audience.

The National Gallery gets an audience. That’s just a fact. Neither Earthman nor I have been there recently, but lots of people have. Earthman and I have both watched a little TG4 recently, which makes us unusual. TG4 are not making an impact, or, put another way, the hurdle is being held so low for them that even if they tripped over it some would seem to deem that a success.

I have never read a review of Bia 'S Bothar, assuming that’s the one, but it was awful rubbish. I note it doesn’t feature on TG4’s top ten - not even on its Irish language top ten – so it seems a minority taste even within TG4’s tiny audience. Someone might be out there producing programmes so novel that their value might not be immediately apparent to the hoi polloi. But that kind of thinking hardly applies to this or, to take another example, to an Irish language country music show.

SPI were the first ones identified as asking for the increase, but you’ll note from the Sunday Business Post article that I comment on in the politics thread linked above that TG4 are joining them in this. I take it we can assume the two entities are co-ordinating their activities in seeking an increase. Why are the SPI asking for the increase? Presumably because there is now a little workfare scheme employing a few hundred that is heavily dependent on TG4’s commissioning budget.

The argument is getting a little circular, but that reflects the way you are tiptoeing past the issue. The stated purpose of TG4 might be to support the Irish Language, but as we know the shows that they manage to get an audience for tend to be either English language or sports/music shows where language is irrelevant. Anecdotes about kids rushing to see cartoons doesn't get you past this.

Earthman wrote:

So the national Gallery is justified by it's audience, we're back to that are we.
You seem to be advocating no public service at all unless it makes a profit or has X level of audience.
You may as well withdraw all non paying public services while you're at it.

This is just hyperbole. TG4 has no significant audience, and most certainly a public service broadcaster needs some level of audience to justify its existence. Even RTE’s broadcasting of foreign programmes is justifiable because they can presumably say that there are people in the country without access to foreign stations, but who want to see popular international shows.

If a public service doesn’t meet any significant need it should be abolished. This happens. For example, the State used to pay housing grants to first time buyers until it became apparent in the face of escalating house prices that they were achieving nothing – hence they were abolished.

You seem to be advocating the idea that the State should fund everything, including services which have no demand or which achieve nothing, a strange corner that you have brought yourself to in trying to defend TG4.

If we want to support domestic programme production, it is better done outside of the scope of an Irish language channel. If you want to support the Irish language, setting up a specialised TV station is unnecessary, particularly if it’s going to gobble up a quarter of State broadcasting funds.

Round Cable

You'll got no long post from me, however only 5% of the poulation speak os Gaeilge, and so as all of it's Irish produced programming is in Irish, it will appeal to less people than the American Ridden RTE 2. From the week of October 18 - October 24 TG4's top 10 ratings ranged from 101,000 to 42,000, not too bad at all.

ishmael whale

Round Cable wrote:

From the week of October 18 - October 24 TG4's top 10 ratings ranged from 101,000 to 42,000, not too bad at all.

I think you’ve rather missed the point. Indeed their home produced stuff is in Irish and frequently subtitled reflecting the reality that there just isn’t much of a demand out there for Irish language programming.Your statement that ‘TG4's top 10 ratings ranged from 101,000 to 42,000’ is misleading, and, with respect, an example of the kind of disinformation that clouds rational assessment of TG4.

The viewership of 101,000 was received for a 1970s Western called El Condor. “Set in Mexico during the 19th century, a gold prospector (Jaroo) and an escaped convict (Luke) team up to go after the score of a lifetime. Along the way, they enlist the help of a group of Apache Indians. Together, they hope to storm a large, heavily guarded fortress full of gold.”
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302877830/103-7598623-6899864?v=glance

TG4’s top three shows in the week in question are not Irish. I think the fourth – Glor Tire (ye will know better than me) – is the country music one? Last week their top two programmes were the Ladies GAA junior and senior finals, and the list also included a few English language films. So your stats only support what I’m saying. TG4’s ‘success’ such as it is has little to do with home produced Irish language programming.

http://www.tg4.ie/bearla/scan/scan.htm
TG4 top ten (,000s)
1.El Condor 101
2.Unforgiven 80
3.Cold Case 74
4.Glór Tíre 64
5.Frank Ned agus Busy Lizzie 51
6.Neelo 47
7.Sé Mo Laoch 47
8.Fíorscéal 46
9.Survivor 8 45
10.Codename: Kids Next Door 42

TG4 top ten – Irish language only (,000s)
1. Glór Tíre 64
2. Frank Ned agus Busy Lizzie 51
3. Neelo 47
4. Sé Mo Laoch 47
5. Fíorscéal 46
6. Survivor 8 45
7. Codename: Kids Next Door 42
8. Underdogs 39
9. Ollchlár Ros na Rún 37
10. Cogar 37

Elmo

TG4’s top three shows in the week in question are not Irish.

None of RTE 2's top twenty programmes are Irish.
None of TV3's top twenty programmes are Irish.

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

Even RTE’s broadcasting of foreign programmes is justifiable because they can presumably say that there are people in the country without access to foreign stations, but who want to see popular international shows.

Now theres a contradiction.
What audience do you think learning German has on RTÉ one on a sunday morning versus say a premiership match if shown instead?
You are displaying your own anti Irish language dogma now by attaching in your own view more merit to the needs of foreign language speakers here than native Irish speakers.
Your statement above belittles the rest of your position on TG4 and public service broadcasting completely.

and most certainly a public service broadcaster needs some level of audience to justify its existence.

With respect, thats nonsense totally un borne out by the facts.
Public service broadcasting is subsidised broadcasting,theres no rules on audience at all, and if you want an extreme example of that, have a look at some of the pbs/cable stations in the states.
There has to be a demand alright before a broadcaster will make the effort to make the programme, but the cost of making of it bears no relationship to the audience size, just to the budgetary value the funds provider places on the need for the service.
If Advertising or market forces(read : audience) alone were left to decide the fate of either foreign or Irish language broadcasting existing , it wouldn't exist at all.

ishmael whale

Lads, I really think you need to reflect on your positions. You’re just defending TG4 for the sake of it at this stage.

Elmo wrote:

None of RTE 2's top twenty programmes are Irish.
None of TV3's top twenty programmes are Irish.

I haven’t seen a list of RTE 2’s top twenty, but that’s not the point. TG4 is meant to be an Irish language channel. That pretty much limits it to home produced material or dubbing. This makes the appearance of so many English language programmes in its top ten all the more remarkable.

And, again, you’re not acknowledging the reality. Like Round Cable you seem happy to berate RTE 2 for being American, without recognising that TG4’s most viewed programme in its most recents stats is a 1970s Western. And this is not unusual.

Earthman wrote:

You are displaying your own anti Irish language dogma now by attaching in your own view more merit to the needs of foreign language speakers here than native Irish speakers.Your statement above belittles the rest of your position on TG4 and public service broadcasting completely.

You seem to be trying to get out of the corner you’ve painted yourself into by hyperbole. It is a simple fact that RTE 2 reaches more people with its schedule than TG4 manages with its schedule of sport, music, English and subtitled. TG4 itself finds there is no real demand for Irish language programmes, and this is reflected in its output and in its most popular programmes.

Your reference to my ‘anti Irish language dogma’ is simply rhetoric to cover your inability to acknowledge the reality of TG4’s output and audience. They are happy to pretend that the 101,000 people who watched ‘El Condor’ are crying out for more domestic Irish language productions. We all know that is not the case, and you do your case no favours by denying the obvious.

Earthman wrote:

Public service broadcasting is subsidised broadcasting,theres no rules on audience at all, and if you want an extreme example of that, have a look at some of the pbs/cable stations in the states.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but public access cable don’t subsidise programme making, they simply provide a platform from which you can broadcast. I might make a film of my navel, and I might be given time to broadcast it, but no-one’s going to subsidise it.

Earthman wrote:

There has to be a demand alright before a broadcaster will make the effort to make the programme, but the cost of making of it bears no relationship to the audience size, just to the budgetary value the funds provider places on the need for the service.

You really have painted yourself into a corner on this one.

The simple fact is that resources are limited. The total kitty in Ireland seems to be less than the UK budget for Welsh language TV. Funds given to one purpose are necessarily denied to another. To say that, in this climate, funds should be given to programmes without a significant audience is just nuts.

Earthman wrote:

If Advertising or market forces(read : audience) alone were left to decide the fate of either foreign or Irish language broadcasting existing , it wouldn't exist at all.

No-one is talking about audience alone being the deciding factor. I’m simply pointing out that TG4’s audience for most of its home produced Irish language programmes is negligible, that claiming more funds for such productions on the basis of an audience share boosted by showing old English movies is wrong and, in the context of the scare public funding available for broadcasting, the funds could be better used elsewhere.

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

Lads, I really think you need to reflect on your positions. You’re just defending TG4 for the sake of it at this stage.

Thats a baseless accusation.
It seems to be the contrary thats true, in that all I've seen from you in this thread so far is an acceptance of other public services whilst you attempt to do down the TG4 public service whilst at the same time in the same paragraph accept similar publically funded services.
Thats not very socially minded and basically showing bias.
I haven't seen either myself or any other poster here specifically target only one service due to an apparent dislike of it.

You seem to be trying to get out of the corner you’ve painted yourself into by hyperbole. It is a simple fact that RTE 2 reaches more people with its schedule than TG4 manages with its schedule of sport, music, English and subtitled. TG4 itself finds there is no real demand for Irish language programmes, and this is reflected in its output and in its most popular programmes.

Thats also baseless, you've shown nothing, nada, zero to back that up.
There is a demand in terms of at least tens of thousands for Irish language programmes, even you concede that.

RTÉ 2 and TG4 are two different kettles of fish, the former has been positioned largely to make money,the latter to largely provide a public service.

Your reference to my ‘anti Irish language dogma’ is simply rhetoric to cover your inability to acknowledge the reality of TG4’s output and audience. They are happy to pretend that the 101,000 people who watched ‘El Condor’ are crying out for more domestic Irish language productions. We all know that is not the case, and you do your case no favours by denying the obvious.

au contraire,I made no reference at all to el condor and it's 101,000 viewers.
My understanding is that TG4 uses a small amount of it's airtime with such programmes to actually bring in some add revenue.
It's ability to do so however is restricted by it's priority which is to maximise the amount of public service Irish language programme delivery.
Public service broadcasting,a concept which you don't seem to be able to fully grasp is never about the size of the audience.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but public access cable don’t subsidise programme making, they simply provide a platform from which you can broadcast. I might make a film of my navel, and I might be given time to broadcast it, but no-one’s going to subsidise it.

You may have shown a film of your navel but, you have paid for it not the advertiser.

The simple fact is that resources are limited. The total kitty in Ireland seems to be less than the UK budget for Welsh language TV. Funds given to one purpose are necessarily denied to another. To say that, in this climate, funds should be given to programmes without a significant audience is just nuts.

You must accept that we have a whole government department dedicated to the language,culture and heritage in this country.Tens of thousands of people vote with their eyes to watch Irish language programming-It's not a goldmine for advertisers but it is the promotion of a culture,something all governments do and thats not nuts.

No-one is talking about audience alone being the deciding factor.

But you are, consistently.
You've even said it in the last piece I've quoted from you.
You are providing an example of the me me me approach to public services, ie If I don't use it, you shouldn't have it.
Imagine the unfairness and inequality if that reasoning was applied everywhere to commercially unviable services.
It would be plain wrong.

Elmo

http://www.medialive.ie/Television/top-tw.html

Sorry my mistake earlier
RTE 2 has 3 sports shows and 3 irish shows

While I agree with you that TV3 has no public service remit. RTE 2 should have some kind of PBS remit other then Documentries from 7 TO 9 most week days and they are not listed on the top twenty.

Perhaps RTE should rethink RTE2 maybe change the name lol.

Elmo

Imagine the unfairness and inequality if that reasoning was applied everywhere to commercially unviable services.

Your talking to someone who said

Remember, the State could create a need for more jobs in the health sector by getting the Army to go round hurting people.

To which I reply

Sorry but you should be able to create Jobs in the health care system even if people aren't sick. Why? Just In Case.

ishmael whale

Earthman wrote:

It seems to be the contrary thats true, in that all I've seen from you in this thread so far is an acceptance of other public services whilst you attempt to do down the TG4 public service whilst at the same time in the same paragraph accept similar publically funded services Thats not very socially minded and basically showing bias.

I’m in favour of public services that serve a purpose. Public services that don’t serve a purpose divert resources away from services that do. Calling this ‘bias’ is just sloganeering.

Earthman wrote:

I haven't seen either myself or any other poster here specifically target only one service due to an apparent dislike of it.

We must be reading different threads. Several posters have criticised RTE 2. It attracts more of an audience than TG4, so by your reckoning these posters must be biased against RTE 2 viewers.

Earthman wrote:

Thats also baseless, you've shown nothing, nada, zero to back that up.
There is a demand in terms of at least tens of thousands for Irish language programmes, even you concede that.

You really need to read and reflect on this thread. I have carefully backed up what I have said here and what I have said on the politics board by appropriate references. TG4’s own stats show that their top ten lists include a lot of English programmes. It is also simply a fact that they use subtitles in English a lot. If they were solely interested in public service broadcasting by your definition they would subtitle in Irish for the benefit of any deaf Irish speakers out there that might be watching.

The evidence is before you, but you are simply ignoring it for reasons I cannot fathom. But I can assure you you’re making no progress in convincing me that your opinions hold any water.

There might be a demand of tens of thousands for some Irish language programmes. That need could probably be met without having a completely separate channel.

Earthman wrote:

RTÉ 2 and TG4 are two different kettles of fish, the former has been positioned largely to make money,the latter to largely provide a public service.

I’m not sure I’d fully agree with you. RTE has a difficult job, needing to walk a line between public service obligations and keeping enough audience to bring in a significant amount of advertising revenue. This is inevitable because, as we know exhaustively, of competition from UK channels with deeper pockets. TG4 is absolved of this conflict by default. It has failed to attract an audience so it fails to attract advertising revenue. So it can broadcast any old tat and lean on the taxpayer if it wants to make more.

Earthman wrote:

au contraire,I made no reference at all to el condor and it's 101,000 viewers.
My understanding is that TG4 uses a small amount of it's airtime with such programmes to actually bring in some add revenue.

I’m not saying that you did make a reference to El Condor. I’m simply pointing out that its position at the top of their ratings is very pertinent to our discussion. Its fresh on my mind because Round Cable seemed happy to claim its 101,000 viewers as evidence of TG4’s brilliance, and TG4 is happy to count them as part of its 3% audience share in making a case for more Irish language programme making.

Earthman wrote:

It's ability to do so however is restricted by it's priority which is to maximise the amount of public service Irish language programme delivery.

I want to get this clear – are you saying you’re happy to see TG4 ditch Irish? Because that’s getting close to where I’m coming from.

Earthman wrote:

Public service broadcasting,a concept which you don't seem to be able to fully grasp is never about the size of the audience.

Broadcasting necessarily involves an audience. Otherwise its navel gazing.

Earthman wrote:

You may have shown a film of your navel but, you have paid for it not the advertiser.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. My point is there is no public interest at stake unless there is some public interest served.

Earthman wrote:

You must accept that we have a whole government department dedicated to the language,culture and heritage in this country.Tens of thousands of people vote with their eyes to watch Irish language programming-It's not a goldmine for advertisers but it is the promotion of a culture,something all governments do and thats not nuts.

This is confusing the means with the end. Promotion of the Irish language may well be laudable, but the point is TG4 isn’t achieving anything. The demand for Irish language programming is oversupplied. (Incidently, how do you square your comment that ‘Tens of thousands of people vote with their eyes’ with your contention that audience doesn’t matter?)

Earthman wrote:

Quote:
No-one is talking about audience alone being the deciding factor.

But you are, consistently. You've even said it in the last piece I've quoted from you.
You are providing an example of the me me me approach to public services, ie If I don't use it, you shouldn't have it. Imagine the unfairness and inequality if that reasoning was applied everywhere to commercially unviable services. It would be plain wrong.

You really will have to read the thread more carefully. At several points I have acknowledged programmes would be made for reasons other than simple audience. I simply pointed out that an Irish language country music show or a crap cookery programme hardly meets the criteria of cultural merit.

But you have to accept that at some stage the audience is so small it’s just not worth the candle. Would you keep TG4 open if its audience consisted of one man and his dog?

But you are just plain wrong when you confuse the fact that public services are generally commercially unviable with whether or not they actually achieve a result. Housing grants became pointless. They were abolished. Pensions are not pointless. They’re still being paid. TG4 is pointless ……

Elmo

So it can broadcast any old tat and lean on the taxpayer if it wants to make more.

Could you mention the tat that TG4 is showing this week and the tat that RTE shows this week. Examples might be good because I haven't seen much tat on TG4.

We must be reading different threads. Several posters have criticised RTE 2. It attracts more of an audience than TG4, so by your reckoning these posters must be biased against RTE 2 viewers.

I am only pointing out the problems that RTE 2 have, that you seem willing to ignor because people are watching it.

RTE 2 can not only receive 30,000,000 in state aid, but also get 35,000,000 in advertising yet neither is used to produce Irish programming that people would like to watch. (TG4 has the difficulty that it's shows are in Irish, and as we have all pointed out they are a minority.)

I pointing out that TG4 are spending the money they get on Irish programming while RTE 2 doesn't.

Just look at what RTE 2 can acheive if they made more Irish Programming.

The Dinner Party = 165,000
Stew = 151,000

Neither are great shows but they get just as much of an audience as Law And Order on TV3 or Home And Away on RTE 2.

Sport will always get viewers.

Don't just go on about TG4 bring other TV channels into this conversation explain to me why RTE 2 should get 30,000,000 and TV3 should not. Why doesn't RTE 2 spend its money on Irish Programming? explain.

ishmael whale

ishmael whale wrote:

I’m in favour of public services that serve a purpose. Public services that don’t serve a purpose divert resources away from services that do. Calling this ‘bias’ is just sloganeering.

Well you seem to be in favour of foreign language programming over Irish language programming in this thread.
That clearly is bias.

Several posters have criticised RTE 2. It attracts more of an audience than TG4, so by your reckoning these posters must be biased against RTE 2 viewers.

by several you mean two on this thread.
One for not providing enough public service programming and the other for simply not providing his choice of programming at all.
Neither are criticising RTÉ 2 because of a specific remit it has.
Whereas you are with respect to TG4 ie your apparent bias against expenditure on a specific open to all platform for the Irish language and culture.

TG4’s own stats show that their top ten lists include a lot of English programmes.

yes the purpose of which is to provide an alternative source of income to a public subvention,it's not their priority though as I've mentioned earlier,their priority is as a platform open to all for the Irish language.

There might be a demand of tens of thousands for some Irish language programmes. That need could probably be met without having a completely separate channel.

By shoving some Irish programming into a half hour slot away from advertising harm no doubt...
That would be a complete castration in terms of platforming the Irish language and culture, something which clearly has minimal value to you.

TG4 is absolved of this conflict by default. It has failed to attract an audience so it fails to attract advertising revenue. So it can broadcast any old tat and lean on the taxpayer if it wants to make more.

You keep repeating this audience mantra.
Public service broadcasting is not about the audience, it's about providing a service to the portions of the viewing and listening public that would otherwise be bereft of that service because it's not commercially viable ie the audience isn't big enough.

Broadcasting necessarily involves an audience. Otherwise its navel gazing.

You've conveniently not used the words"public service" there evidently because you seem to dislike non commercially viable broadcasting.
I believe thats not a fair position for anyone to take,it would condemn all to the sky one school of broadcasting whether as viewers they wished to avail of a public service that rises above that or not.

(Incidently, how do you square your comment that ‘Tens of thousands of people vote with their eyes’ with your contention that audience doesn’t matter?)

I don't have to,I merely said it to counter your assertion that there is no audience at all when clearly there is an audience availing of this public service.
They are users of it, in the same way people use some of Dublin buse's less lucrative routes.

But you have to accept that at some stage the audience is so small it’s just not worth the candle. Would you keep TG4 open if its audience consisted of one man and his dog?

But it doesn't and it's far from that stage, it's in it's tens of thousands when at it's minimum.
It's a want from a significant minority that you seem to want to abandon.
I don't think thats laudable to be honest, nor have I seen any convincing argument made by you here so far for the withdrawal of the TG4 public service.

Having re read this thread in it's entirety,I've concluded that it has encircled itself.
Two completely opposing angles-no common ground but a worthwhile exchange of views.
This has ran it's course-thread closed