No Car Tax -Penalty Points ?

beer enigma

Can anyone clear up whether you can get penalty points for not displaying car tax ??

I'm seething at the seemingly heavy handedness of some members of the Gardai in the West Cork region in relation to motoring offences. Last week I picked up my first speeding ticket - 62mph in a 60mph zone.

Now I know the answer is not to speed in the first place, so no lectures please, but this morning I picked up a ticket for not displaying up to date motor tax. I purchased the car over the weekend & the disc ran up until the end of September. I had all of the documentation with me to prove I'd just bought the car & still I get a ticket !!.

Is this just the locals being heavy handed or is it right across the country ??

HashSlinging

jaysus never heard of someone getting a ticket for 2mph over the limit, im sure you could contest that in court as a faulty reading.. I've been caught out of tax loads of time I just say its in the post etc. you've a months grace as far as i know. :eek:

beer enigma

HashSlinging wrote:

I've been caught out of tax loads of time I just say its in the post etc. you've a months grace as far as i know. :eek:

Well I've got a nice pink ticket for my troubles with a €60 fine on it, so I'll send in the receipt from my tax (when the insurance docs get through), but if they don't rescind it - can you get points from it ??

Boggle

Strange .... afaik the speed limit is given as 100kph == 62.5mph. You might want to take this one to court. This is why brennan wants to change the signs so as to clear up the confusion around this matter. Anyway, 2mph is too close to the limit as neither the speedometer on the car or the gun are calibrated sufficiently to accurately give this...

Seth Brundle

tax offences do not incur points as yet
www.penaltypoints.ie

@ Boggle - when did our speed limits change from mph to kmph? I thought the national speed limit was still 60mph as per http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/road_traffic_speed_limits_in_ireland.html.

Boggle

Read it somewhere ... I'll try to find the source hopefully later as I have to go do some work right now. This is the confusion I referred to though - afaik it is given by some sources in kph (probably in europe).

The Muppet

If you only purchased the car over the weekend you could not have recieved the registrartion certificate back from the tax office yet to tax it. Did you show the Guard the little slip from the bottom of the change of ownership form to confirm to him that you had only purchased the vehicle?

Interceptor

Bloody hell, you are being victimised. Change your name and move to Leitrim.... Did you nob a cops wife or sumthin'?

'c

beer enigma

kbannon wrote:

tax offences do not incur points as yet

Thanks for that

The Muppet wrote:

If you only purchased the car over the weekend you could not have recieved the registrartion certificate back from the tax office yet to tax it. Did you show the Guard the little slip from the bottom of the change of ownership form to confirm to him that you had only purchased the vehicle?

Showed him that....he wan't interested - said that it was my duty to make sure the car was taxed before it was on the road....amazingly, I was quite polite to him :eek:

interceptor wrote:

Bloody hell, you are being victimised. Change your name and move to Leitrim.... Did you nob a cops wife or sumthin'?

Doubt if he had a wife...or a father for that matter

Hagar

Boggle is correct. The speed limit is actually 100kph or 62.something mph.
Go to court. The judge will rip the guard a new arsehole.

Seth Brundle

since when did the speed limits change?

Farls

I was always told your given leeway when it came to speeding.

that in a 30mph zone you could do 33mph

and in a 60mph zone you could do 66mph

I was told this by a guard as well.

Didn't know about the 100kmh thing though, this must be as we're all going metric over the next few years?

And the tax thing is a joke def bring it to court, your man must of just wanted to vent anger or the likes!

Farlz

impr0v

Afaik the limit is still legally 60mph, prior to the metrification which is currently scheduled for January the 20th (if i remember correctly).

The confusion around this issue could very well be a good defence in court.

It will be easy to cast doubt upon a 2mph difference, the calibration of your speedometer could conceivably account for this difference on its own, before you even ask what the stated manufacturer's tolerance is for the equipment that caught you and how soon since it has last been tested.

beer enigma

Well I have to say that I thought there was a 10% tolerance given on speed - not that I was deliberately pushing it, but its easy to drift a few mph over. And the no tax ticket was just one too far.

Anyhoo......I made a visit to Anglesea St Garda Station In Cork yesterday afternoon to sort this lot out as the more I thought about it, the more angry it made me. They instantly cancelled the 'no tax' ticket - the Garda Sargeant on the desk didn't seem suprised it had been issed by the Garda in question, but agreed that it was a waste of everyone's time - especially as I'm still waiting for the log book etc.

He told me that he couldn't officially advise me to appeal the speeding ticket, but if it had happened to him, he would appeal it personally, which I thought was jolly decent of him.

Soooooo - anyone know the appeals process

De Hipster

The guards have to give 10% on the speed limit, as mentioned before to do with the callibration & speedometer.

As for the tax thing...how the **** are ye to be expected to tax a car with no documentation???!!! Court my good man is the only way to put manners on that little hitler!

Boggle

in the case of the ticket I'd make a formal complaint about the gard and make sure he knows it as he is obviously not fit for duty. Also, it means that he will have to stay away from you (no more tickets from nob-end) as otherwise it will be seen as harassment!! Can you name him aswell? really piss him off..

As for the speeding ticket - just dont pay the fine and you'll get your summonse. The gard will need surgery by the time the judge is finished abusing him!!


... as far as I know the speed limit has been 62.5 for 8 years at least as I remember having this discussion when I working in a bar years ago. Will have a look for a source if I get time later on.

Our man in Havana

Found this:

ROAD TRAFFIC (GENERAL AND ORDINARY SPEED LIMITS) REGULATIONS, 1992.

The Minister for the Environment in exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 5 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 (No. 24 of 1961) and Section 44A of the said Act, as inserted by section 24 of the Road Traffic Act, 1968 (No. 25 of 1968) hereby makes the following Regulations:—

1. These Regulations may be cited as the Road Traffic (General and Ordinary Speed Limits) Regulations, 1992.

2. These Regulations shall come into operation on the 30th day of July 1992.

3. The Road Traffic (Speed Limits) Regulations, 1963 (S.I. No. 18 of 1963) and the Road Traffic (General Speed Limit) Regulations, 1979 (S.I. No. 176 of 1979) are hereby revoked.

4. In these Regulations, save where the context otherwise requires:

"the Act" means the Road Traffic Act, 1961;

"built-up area speed limit", "general speed limit" "ordinary speed limit" and "special speed limit" have the meanings respectively assigned to them in Part IV of the Act;

"design gross vehicle weight" has the meaning assigned to it in the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1989 (S.I. No. 285 of 1989);

"passenger accommodation" means seating passenger accommodation determined in accordance with the provisions of the Road Traffic (Passenger Accommodation of Mechanically Propelled Vehicles) Regulations, 1962 (S.I. No. 143 of 1962);

"road" means a public road;

5. There shall be a general speed limit of 60 miles per hour on all roads other than roads to which a built-up area speed limit or a special speed limit applies.

6. (1) There shall be an ordinary speed limit of 50 miles per hour in respect of all roads for—

( a ) single decked mechanically propelled vehicles intended or adapted primarily for the carriage of passengers which have passenger accommodation for more than eight persons.
( b ) mechanically propelled vehicles neither intended nor adapted primarily for the carriage of passengers which have a design gross vehicle weight in excess of 3,500 kilogrammes.
( c ) a combination of a mechanically propelled vehicle drawing another vehicle.
7. There shall be an ordinary speed limit of 40 miles per hour in respect of all roads for double decked mechanically propelled vehicles intended or adapted primarily for the carriage of passengers and having passenger accommodation for more than eight persons.

8. A speed limit prescribed in articles 6, or 7 of these Regulations shall not apply in respect of any road in respect of which a lesser speed limit is prescribed in the Act or in Regulations made under Part IV of the Act.

9. There shall be excepted from the speed limits prescribed in these Regulations the following—

( a ) ambulances,

( b ) fire brigades, and

( c ) vehicles used by members of the Garda Síochána in the performance of their duties as such members.

GIVEN under the Official Seal of the Minister for the Environment, this 16th day of July, 1992.

MICHAEL SMITH,

Minister for the Environment.

EXPLANATORY NOTE.

These Regulations revoke the Road Traffic (Speed Limits) Regulations 1963, and the Road Traffic (General Speed Limit) Regulations, 1979.

Under these Regulations a "General Speed Limit" of 60 miles per hour is prescribed for all roads other than roads to which a "built-up area speed limit" or a "special speed limit" applies.

In addition the Regulations prescribe an "Ordinary Speed Limit" of 50 miles per hour for single deck buses; for goods vehicles having a design gross vehicle weight in excess of 3,500 kilograms and for all vehicles drawing another vehicle.

The Regulations also prescribe an "Ordinary Speed Limit" of 40 miles per hour for double deck buses.

Ambulances, Fire Brigades and Garda Síochána vehicles, while being used in the course of duty, are exempt from the speed limits.

These have never been ammended to date.

Duckjob

So it's dangerous and irresponsible to drive at 62mph now, but it'll be safe to do so in January.

Definitely bring that to court. Money grabbing ba$tards.

Alun

Duckjob wrote:

So it's dangerous and irresponsible to drive at 62mph now, but it'll be safe to do so in January.

You'e summed it all up nicely there!

Similarly it is apparently dangerous and irrsponsible to drive at 80mph on a motorway here, but perfectly legal in France, and you'd be holding everybody up in Germany ...

jlang

Reminds me of the driving instructor who in my pre-test told me to try to go steadily at 32mph in the 30 zones during the test (42 etc) as that's what the tester would expect and that he had people failing for 'inadequate progress' because they stayed at 28 to be sure they didn't hit the posted limit. Driving school under the test office in Naas - I did what he said to do and passed, so whadyagonnado.

This with the above ticket for 62 brings up the possibility of getting penalty points during the test and passing the test because the testers and the guards can't agree!

alias no.9

I got a ticket for no tax earlier this year, the day after coming home from an extended holiday in australia. The car had obviously been off the road and the insurance suspended. I went straight round to the bridewell to explain and that I couldn't tax the car until my insurance cert was returned to me. They just said that as soon as it was taxed to send the summons, with a reciept from the tax office and a copy of the letter from the insurance company stating that the insurance was suspended and that all would be fine. For completely unrelated reasons, I've since sold the car and changed address so I've no idea what came of the whole situation.

TommyK

Andip wrote:

. . .said that it was my duty to make sure the car was taxed before it was on the road....amazingly, I was quite polite to him :eek:

Technically, it IS your duty, as the owner of a vehicle, to ensure you/it isn't violating any laws, including taxation.

However, in practice, a ticket issued in a situation like that will be rescinded.

Also, did you know that, once you are listed as the registered owner of a privately-taxed vehicle, you don't need to submit ANY documentation to renew your tax - you just need to fill out the details on the tax renewal (including getting a Garda stamp to cover arrears periods, if that is applicable) and give it in (or post it in) with the appropriate fee.

Also, if you accrue arreara because you were waiting to receive your new tax-book, that CANNOT be used as an excuse for not taxing it!! i.e. You can't go into a Motor Tax Office and say, "I'm not paying arrears for last month because I didn't get my tax-book until this month". You HAVE TO have a Garda stamp to cover the period.

By law, you are liable for tax from the START of the month in which you recorded the date of sale! If you write, say, 31/11/04 as the date of sale on the change-of-ownership, then, because motor tax can only be calculated on a monthly basis, you ARE liable for tax from the START of the 11th. month!

Tommy.

mike65

Tommy you don't work in a motor tax office by any chance, do you?

Mike.

shoegirl

Andip wrote:

Well I've got a nice pink ticket for my troubles with a €60 fine on it, so I'll send in the receipt from my tax (when the insurance docs get through), but if they don't rescind it - can you get points from it ??

Count yourself lucky. 4 years ago I got caught with my tax 3 months out of date and was taken to court by the ****er of a Gard and fined £100. (Mind you this Garda was such a petty-minded ba****d he also had a guy up in court for cycling down a one way street the wrong way.

And of course if you don't renew before the renewal date you pay arrears on top of your renewal. Ever since then I don't even think of not paying in time.

Technically they are also allowed to seize your car . . . apparently the only thing stopping them doing that at the moment is that the pound is full.

Our man in Havana

Technically they are also allowed to seize your car . . . apparently the only thing stopping them doing that at the moment is that the pound is full.

They can only seize if the tax is expired by 3 clear months.

TommyK

mike65 wrote:

Tommy you don't work in a motor tax office by any chance, do you?

Mike.

LOL . . . . . . No, I'm there so often I just feel like I do sometimes.

I have a friend who does but she's at the other end of the country so she's not much use . . .

I went to the Motor Tax School of Hard Knocks & Nasty Surprises