Advice wanted re online tourney strategy

Imposter

This might apply to offline games too but any advice would be appreciated.

I'm having a problem getting myself a large enough stack to manage to make the money (or at least the big money) in online tournaments. I seem to start ok and be about 1 1/2 to 3 times the average stack with about half the people gone. Then from then on I don't seem to gain much in the way of chips and usually lose chips as they get blinded away.

So how does one continue to acquire chips as the game tightens up and maintain a healthy stack?
I'm probably quite passive as a player and this might be the problem. If so are there any good articles/books I could read that would help with this or any ideas how i could work on getting more aggressive?

Thanks in advance for any advice and/or reccomendations.

Hectorjelly

Imposter wrote:

So how does one continue to acquire chips as the game tightens up and maintain a healthy stack?
I'm probably quite passive as a player and this might be the problem. If so are there any good articles/books I could read that would help with this or any ideas how i could work on getting more aggressive?

Thanks in advance for any advice and/or reccomendations.

Be aggressive when your in a hand, and play very tight. My guess is your limping too much preflop with crap hands like J10 K9 or similar. There arent any good books on tournament strategy, Sklanskys tournament poker for advanced players is good but only covers a few concepts, its not really suitable for beginners. TG Cloutiers book is quite good, but again it just tells you to play tight. The 2 + 2 forums multi table tourament forum is ok, its one of the poorer 2+2 forums IMO. Still some good advice though. Good Luck

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/

kencleary

Oh come on - J 10 is worth a limp in most positions. It makes an ungodly number of straights and if you hit your hand you'll nearly always bust 1-2 people playing top pair or two pair.

Hectorjelly

kencleary wrote:

Oh come on - J 10 is worth a limp in most positions. It makes an ungodly number of straights and if you hit your hand you'll nearly always bust 1-2 people playing top pair or two pair.

Usually the blinds are too big to be playing a hand for straight potential only, and its a hand that will get people into trouble more often than not, either by drawing for a hand (which is a bad idea in a tournament) or by going broke with top pair no kicker.

mewso

I think the point is that when the blinds get large in the latter stages then if you think your hand is good enough to play then raise it otherwise throw it away.

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

I think the point is that when the blinds get large in the latter stages then if you think your hand is good enough to play then raise it otherwise throw it away.

This is only true when the blinds are very big, and even then I like to limp sometimes on the button or the cutoff.

Imposter

Hectorjelly wrote:

Be aggressive when your in a hand, and play very tight. My guess is your limping too much preflop with crap hands like J10 K9 or similar.

This is what I do. As for playing crap hands then not really. I may play J10 from late position if nobody has put in a raise. Obviously i'll also raise if I do to try and win the pot there and then.

I play my good hands quite strong but quite often nothing hits (if my hand isn't a pair, or is a pair and an overcard lands) and I end up having to fold and have lost a significant amount of a small stack. I think it's too much of a risk to try and bluff this hand as a tight player probably has me beat and is unlikely to fold while a good bluffer will put in a raise that would put me all-in and that would be madness to call if I have nothing. If it's an even smaller stack than me then it may be possible to bluff myself but it is a very dangerous play.

I think what's needed to avoid this problem may be more aggressive play and more bluffing than usual in the 100-200 blinds (Level 4 or 5) to have a relatively decent stack so that I can weather the storm as the blinds rise. Or am I talking shite?

Hectorjelly

Imposter wrote:

This is what I do. As for playing crap hands then not really. I may play J10 from late position if nobody has put in a raise. Obviously i'll also raise if I do to try and win the pot there and then.

I play my good hands quite strong but quite often nothing hits (if my hand isn't a pair, or is a pair and an overcard lands) and I end up having to fold and have lost a significant amount of a small stack. I think it's too much of a risk to try and bluff this hand as a tight player probably has me beat and is unlikely to fold while a good bluffer will put in a raise that would put me all-in and that would be madness to call if I have nothing. If it's an even smaller stack than me then it may be possible to bluff myself but it is a very dangerous play.

I think what's needed to avoid this problem may be more aggressive play and more bluffing than usual in the 100-200 blinds (Level 4 or 5) to have a relatively decent stack so that I can weather the storm as the blinds rise. Or am I talking shite?

You should only ever be limping if you have a medium or large stack, if your shortstacked then you should only play a pot if your raising.

Imposter

Hectorjelly wrote:

You should only ever be limping if you have a medium or large stack, if your shortstacked then you should only play a pot if your raising.

I never said I was limping with a small stack.

Hectorjelly

Imposter wrote:

and I end up having to fold and have lost a significant amount of a small stack

The next time you play a tournament post a few hands that you played here, we can give you feedback if you want.

Hectorjelly

kencleary wrote:

Oh come on - J 10 is worth a limp in most positions. It makes an ungodly number of straights and if you hit your hand you'll nearly always bust 1-2 people playing top pair or two pair.

J 10 makes the same amount of straights as 78 or 67; would you play these unsuited?

DeVore

HJ has a point (though I'll take JTo against his 67o anyday!)
JT *suited* has potential. Some people call it the strongest drawing hand in NLH though I disagree.

The point of it above say 67o is that its the highest suited connectors that have all the straight options. Three words in that sentence are important. "Highest" "suited" "connectors".

The power of JTs is that it has three possible ways of winning. You can hit a T or J high flop and you might be the only one holding it. You can hit a flush draw and finally you can hit a straight draw.

Any of these allow you to bet and thus take the pot down without making any of those draws.

JTo loses one of these possibilities (argueably the best) and, for me, tilts the hand back into the realms of "play if small blind, having fun, or fancy a gamble"

DeV.

DeVore

I think what imposter was getting at was that JT makes the most "Nut" straights possible. If JT makes a straight it is ALWAYS the nut straight. Another small edge but they all add up I guess.

DeV

Imposter

What I was initially getting at was how do people play to avoid being in a situation that they have a small stack when nearing the money (say 5-20 players still to drop before the money) and they are getting their stack eaten away by the blinds.

Do people start bluffing more when their stacks are about average with half the players gone or do they wait and wait until they hopefully get a good hand to make their move? I generally wait for a good hand and it doesn't work, usually. If you get a long run with no cards or one hand beaten you're pretty much finished.

Chances are you could be waiting 3 rounds or possibly more if you are only going to play a really good hand. Even waiting for some marginal hands like J10 could take this long. After 3 rounds of blinds a small stack will have become worthless and you're as good as out.

It's the general strategy i'm talking about and not what you do specifically with any given hand.

mewso

One mistake I see alot of big stacks make in tourneys is they play too many hands. My attitude, if I build up a decent stack, is that I can afford to wait for a decent hand. Alot of online players play more marginal hands when they get a big stack which imho is bad play. Obviously you can't sit there all night but building up your stack allows you more room to be picky.
My objective is to get into the money and once I do I can start to think about winning more than just the cash on the bottom rung. I'm starting to prefer the rebuys more these days because so many people believe that the way to play a rebuy is very loose whereas I believe it's the complete opposite. Playing a good solid game you are very likely to get paid when you do have a hand.
If you are getting no cards you have to make bluffs when the time looks right, like raising on BB when you have 3 limpers for example. If you're caught out then so be it.

Hectorjelly

Well once my stack gets to around 12 bbs Im going all in on any playable hand, and some unplayable ones as well. Like musician says, if you get caught you get caught. I never allow myself to be blinded down to nothing.

bohsman

My problem is when the tourny gets down to 12/13 Ill have an average stack and then start getting blinded away as either the big stacks bully or the small stacks go all in, then again on the final table when it gets down to 3/4 players

JuliusFranco

this is a really good thread cos it was something i was thinking alot about since the last 50 game in the merrion (which incidently i thought was f*king A and i can't wait till the next one)

i had about 6 or 7 K when we got down to 2 tables but then blinds just kicked the ****e outa me, i didn't want to raise cos i new i'd get called by big stacks and in late positions i got nothing except a QJs and QJo which i folded to raises from big stacks in earlier positions.

In those cases should I have gambled and re-raised all in? I thought they might have bullying at bit but at the same time Ax (or indeed) Kx vs QJ is at least 1/2?

By the way, i simultaniously broke my Fitzwilliam cheey and cash game cherry on friday night. Thanks a mil Hectorjelly for the Omaha tips , won about 350 (i thought i was gonna throw up!)

bohsman

Julius were you sitting in seat 9 on the second cash game, think we were talkin bout how you play limit holdem online?

JuliusFranco

not sure what table it was, i think i was in seat 5 (kinda ginger hair, sideburns, navy suit, slightly drunk), when it started there was an oldish lady in seat 6 and a blond english dude with sunglasses in seat 7?

DeVore

i didn't want to raise cos i new i'd get called by big stacks and in late positions i got nothing except a QJs and QJo which i folded to raises from big stacks in earlier positions.

In those cases should I have gambled and re-raised all in?

If you arent hoping to play the hand then what does it matter if its QJ or 23. against AK its a toss up as to which I'd rather have!

My point is that you should put the hand down since others have shown strong interest in the hand. Wait for the next hand and if there is no interest, steal with 93o. Its as valid as stealing with QJs and more likely to succeed because noone seems interested in taking you on.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

If you arent hoping to play the hand then what does it matter if its QJ or 23. against AK its a toss up as to which I'd rather have!

My point is that you should put the hand down since others have shown strong interest in the hand. Wait for the next hand and if there is no interest, steal with 93o. Its as valid as stealing with QJs and more likely to succeed because noone seems interested in taking you on.

DeV.

A resteal is often more effective than a single raise, if you think that you have enough chips to force the original raise to fold then go for it; allthough I think its a better play with hand like 67s of 89o as if you get called your unlikely to be dominated (ie you reraise with QJ and get called by AQ)

JuliusFranco

DeVore wrote:

If you arent hoping to play the hand then what does it matter if its QJ or 23. against AK its a toss up as to which I'd rather have!

My point is that you should put the hand down since others have shown strong interest in the hand. Wait for the next hand and if there is no interest, steal with 93o. Its as valid as stealing with QJs and more likely to succeed because noone seems interested in taking you on.

DeV.

good point, and point taken

i just thought that in these cases only 1 person, with a big pile of chips, showed an interest and may have been just bullying (cos he stole the blinds like that a few times). But it was just as likely that he had me beat anyway and i did fold

i went out a bit later when i was on the button and there was no SB. It was folded around to me, I had Kx, raised all in for about 2500 (blinds were 800 1500. BB called with KJ which was i suppose a good call cos it was probably obvious i was gonna try that with anyting and it was (only) an extra 1000 to call, and I had stole his BB before. Wot cha reckon?

i remember you saying that when you are that shortstacked you should be pretty tight as it's more likely you will be called, but of course alan here forgot about it at that moment, i could have waited a bit londer

JuliusFranco

Hectorjelly wrote:

A resteal is often more effective than a single raise, if you think that you have enough chips to force the original raise to fold then go for it; allthough I think its a better play with hand like 67s of 89o as if you get called your unlikely to be dominated (ie you reraise with QJ and get called by AQ)

not too sure i understand this?

Hectorjelly

JuliusFranco wrote:

i went out a bit later when i was on the button and there was no SB. It was folded around to me, I had Kx, raised all in for about 2500 (blinds were 800 1500. BB called with KJ which was i suppose a good call cos it was probably obvious i was gonna try that with anyting and it was (only) an extra 1000 to call, and I had stole his BB before. Wot cha reckon?

He has to call there, You go all in for 2500, and theres 2300 already in the pot, he is putting in 1000 to win 5800; so even if you turned AA face up he should still call with 22.

Hectorjelly

JuliusFranco wrote:

By the way, i simultaniously broke my Fitzwilliam cheey and cash game cherry on friday night. Thanks a mil Hectorjelly for the Omaha tips , won about 350 (i thought i was gonna throw up!)

No problem, well done!

Hectorjelly

JuliusFranco wrote:

not too sure i understand this?

There are a lot of hands that will raise that cant stand a reraise, eg: 88, AQ etc etc.

JuliusFranco

i get ya, many thanks for the advice

Imposter

Here's an article I read last night after I posted this thread.

I'm not sure if i'd agree with saying that the farmer in the last 4 is the lucky one. Ok yes they have been lucky to get the cards and to win with them but I think the foxes are luckier that they've not lost their stack through their bluffs. Opinions?

Hectorjelly

Imposter wrote:

Here's an article I read last night after I posted this thread.

I'm not sure if i'd agree with saying that the farmer in the last 4 is the lucky one. Ok yes they have been lucky to get the cards and to win with them but I think the foxes are luckier that they've not lost their stack through their bluffs. Opinions?

The article is explaining that Farmers can only reach that stage if they get good cards, the foxes can get there with or without cards. So it has to be the farmers who have gotten lucky.

Drakar

Hectorjelly wrote:

He has to call there, You go all in for 2500, and theres 2300 already in the pot, he is putting in 1000 to win 5800; so even if you turned AA face up he should still call with 22.

With 22, you have 2 cards remaining which would beat the AA. Isn't that roughly 2 cards in 48, ie a 1 in 24 shot at winning for which you receive 1 in 5.8 odds?

DapperGent

Drakar wrote:

With 22, you have 2 cards remaining which would beat the AA. Isn't that roughly 2 cards in 48, ie a 1 in 24 shot at winning for which you receive 1 in 5.8 odds?

I'm sure it's with either the entire board to come or two cards to come which reduces the odds somewhat. Plus the chance of making straights and flushes. Though the Aces break some of your straights and we
don't know their suits.

On the odds calculater AhAc vs 2s2d gives the ducks an 18.5% chance. In or around 4-1 or ample odds to call with. This goes up to 20% or so for 88 which doesn't have the straight problems. Though this is all with the Aces being different suits to our pocket pair.

Drakar

Yeah that was me being stoopid and forgetting that this was before the flop, so you have 5 chances at getting that 1 in 24 shot.

Lafortezza

There's an article on cardplayer at the moment talking about Tournament strategy,http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14300
If you're small stack and about to be swallowed up by the blinds in the next few hands its worth gambling on 56s or 89o instead of trying to wait for something like A9 or KJ. The A9 or KJ hands are mostly likely to be dominated (As HJ said earlier in the thread) by someone calling with AJ or better.
AKo vs 89o is about 63% in favour of the AK, so you've a 1 in 3 chance of doubling through when the pressure is on. Not a bad option compared to your
KJo called by AJ being a nasty dog with only a 26% chance to win.

Live cards is what its all about!