Second U.S Presidential Debate

David19

What did people think?

It was a great debate. Again Kerry was very impressive. The two debates have been excellent for him. I think people now see him as a strong candidate. Bush was better in this debate but he was on the defensive for a lot of it. It'll be interesting to see how the polls go, I reckon Kerry could go into a clear lead. In my opinion Kerry won again.

arcadegame2004

I also feel that Kerry won on substance. However, even if he does establish a sustained opinion-poll lead it doesn't mean he will win. It is the Electoral College that matters not the popular-vote. The Electoral College is clearly an undemocratic institution and gives excessive weight to what I call the redneck vote.

ApeXaviour

Bush's everyman attitude and humour (albeit among lies) I reckon appealed more to the undecided middle class of whom Kerry is making his biggest push for.

Doper Than U

Agree with ApeX, Bush's attitude may have won over the people who cannot see through his meaningless gibberish with his "humour", even though I hate to admit it. I'm still hoping the majority of Kerry voters are not registering on polls, but will make their vote count on the day. Fingers crossed Kerry will get through with a comfortable majority. Good debate though, had a great laugh at Bush's discomfort when the guy asked the environment question.

Carpo

According to this Kerry has taken the lead with electoral votes 280 to 239.

Which is nice

GuanYin

Was a hard one to call. Bush was clearly caught out on a number of Kerry's points and continued with smear and mis-direction when this occurred, but will the US masses recognise this?

Kerry should have hammered him on the environment, I thought he let him off lightly.

Quite a few funny bush moments, particularly where he tried to quote the constitution but couldn't.

I'd give it marginly to Kerry.

shotamoose

I think Kerry won this one. Bush seemed defensive and angry from the beginning, and was interrupting the moderator and almost yelling at the audience, while Kerry was calm and focused. Kerry was stronger on the issues I think people care most about in this election - Iraq, jobs, the 'war on terror'. He found it harder to communicate a simple message on difficult issues like abortion or stem-cell research, while Bush stuck to a simplistic position on each - I've no idea which attitude plays better with Americans.

A couple of weird bits too. I seem to recall Bush promising people "a catastrophic plan" for health insurance, and at one point Kerry said something about Bush getting $84 from a timber company that i don't think anyone understood.

therecklessone

shotamoose wrote:

and at one point Kerry said something about Bush getting $84 from a timber company that i don't think anyone understood.

I'm reposting an AP report that was posted on www.thumped.com

Kerry startled Bush by saying that the president is counted as a small business for tax purposes because he once earned $84 from a timber company he owns.
"I own a timber company?" Bush asked. "That's news to me." Then he paused and added, "Need some wood?"

That baffling exchange arises from an analysis by the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org debunking Bush's claims that Kerry's plans to raise taxes on the richest Americans would increase the tax burden on 900,000 small businesses.

The analysis found that the Bush campaign is counting every rich person who has even $1 of outside business income as a small business owner, even if they have no employees.

The analysis said even Bush qualifies under that definition because he reported $84 in income from his part-ownership of a timber enterprise on his 2001 federal tax return.

Its one of those ones that needs post-debate analysis, so I doubt it will have too much effect on Bush.

Another one from Bush was when he was asked about the draft and he said:

there's rumours going around on the internets

So Al Gore "invented" the internet, and Bush thinks there's more than one of 'em...

Then when he was talking about WMD and the intelligence failings of his admin, he tried to talk his way out of it by saying something like "there's an intelligence...[long pause]...group looking at it"

I dozed thorugh the last half hour, but I felt it was much closer than the first debate. That format suits Bush, but Kerry held his ground. Makes number 3 an interesting finale.

pete

shotamoose wrote:

at one point Kerry said something about Bush getting $84 from a timber company that i don't think anyone understood.

The answer comes from factcheck.org, via AP, via Fox News, of all places:

Kerry startled Bush by saying that the president is counted as a small business for tax purposes because he once earned $84 from a timber company he owns.

"I own a timber company?" Bush asked. "That's news to me." Then he paused and added, "Need some wood?"

That baffling exchange arises from an analysis by the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org debunking Bush's claims that Kerry's plans to raise taxes on the richest Americans would increase the tax burden on 900,000 small businesses.

The analysis found that the Bush campaign is counting every rich person who has even $1 of outside business income as a small business owner, even if they have no employees.

The analysis said even Bush qualifies under that definition because he reported $84 in income from his part-ownership of a timber enterprise on his 2001 federal tax return.

Nick_oliveri

I honestly thought Bush would have been a lot more idiotic than he was. Methinks them questions were shown to somebody other than the moderator. Kerry did kick Bush's ass in my opinion. He got himself outta that "wishy-washy" thing with style and grace. Some CBS a$$hole is moderating it next week. At least its not Dan Rathers. God damn i hate that scare mongerer.

therecklessone

pete wrote:

The answer comes from factcheck.org, via AP, via Fox News, of all places:

Snap!



[edit]wait a minute...pete, are the real pete? from thumped?[/edit]

pete

therecklessone wrote:

Snap!



[edit]wait a minute...pete, are the real pete? from thumped?[/edit]

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

ahem

therecklessone

pete wrote:

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

ahem

Flair enough...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

Kerry has got to go on the attack. The US economy is far from booming. The Iraqi situation is a mess.

But US citizens seem not to be too angry or anti George W.

Kerry has got to convince them. I am delighted that we are seeing a contest.

But I would still prefer if Nader dropped out.

AngelofFire

It is the Electoral College that matters not the popular-vote. The Electoral College is clearly an undemocratic institution and gives excessive weight to what I call the redneck vote.

Good news coming from the electoral college Kerry is actually ahead by 32 electoral votes. http://www.electoral-vote.com

chill

There were no knock out blows... but I thought Kerry look far more presidential.

Bush whined and whined and whined throughout the debate and showed a lot of disrespect for Kerry and for the moderator ... charging out of his seat to interrupt and shouting hiim down on a couple of occasions.

I thought Bush was seriously rattled, while Kerry drove his case home.

ixoy

I'd have handed this one to Kerry, albeit not by much. Bush didn't seem to make so many tactical errors this time but Kerry seemed to have substance, and facts, to his points.

From a speaking point of view, I felt Kerry had more strength in his voice. He addressed the crowd more whereas Bush seemed to look down a bit, and appear more hesitant. Bush tried to make up with some humor but I was just left going "huh?" at his bizarre "Need some wood?" comment and outright laughing at his "rumor on the internets" line (I've a feeling we'll see that Bushism appear soon enough in geek use). The only time I felt Kerry noticably stumbled was on the question of embryonic stem cell research which was, clearly, a minefield. It gave Bush a moment to get into zealot mode against the liberal conspiracy as well...
Be interesting to see how the general public views this. I'm not really sure how you could claim Bush won this round but then I could say much the same about how you could claim he should get four more years. I'd watch the third one but I don't think the hours suit...

claidheamh

I had a particularly hard time digesting Mr. Bush's referencing to Europeans as, "they" and "those people." To me, he sounded insularly bigoted, and found his humour insulting.

Furthermore, I understood Mr. Kerrys explaination of his indecision, when previously it was unclear. His approval of a policy in theory, but then gain his non-support of the finalization due to lack of funding or the addition of "pork barrels," was my understanding.

IMO: Kind of like handing a starving man a poisoned apple. From Bush's point-of-view: He's either 100% hungry and he'll eat the apple, or he's 100% satiated and won't eat the apple, never being allowed to consider the causality of consumption. While Kerry's p-o-v: he would very much like the apple, but would rather not eat it.

Kerry would like to express caution with international problems, and receive multi-national opinion; Whereas, Bush could really care less what the rest of the planet's opinions might be. Could Kerry become overly cautious? Possibly. But I would rather an err on the side of caution, than a rush to rash judgement.

I think a US President must be a team player globally. I also feel that the insularity expressed by the US today, is the result of fear. Fear, not from outside threat. Moreso, fear that, the "US Way" may not be the best rule of thumb, and that it should "follow" some of these better rules about how to conduct its business.

From the second debate I got that Kerry would definately be the more open-minded to international opinion, something that is sorely deficient with the current administration.

dahamsta

Ah, an opportunity for a double helping of pedantry...

therecklessone wrote:

So Al Gore "invented" the internet ...

A myth "invented" by Declan McCullagh and perpetuated by people that recklessly don't check their facts. What he actually said that he "took the initiative in creating the Internet", but even that was taken out of context -- see the next sentence in the transcript. Seth's page is worth reading too.

... and Bush thinks there's more than one of 'em...

And ironically, he'd be right.

But anyway, any video? I can finish watching the first one while I wait for the second one to download.

adam

Nick_oliveri

(Some) Americans should wake the fook up. I mean, its nearly a tie on the polls almost constantly. Why the hell would anyone vote for Bush, you would have to be clinically insane. Kerry promised to take away this "sneak and peek" scum in the patriot act. I think hes going to clean up everything, and thats if and only if he gets elected.

dahamsta

Nick_oliveri wrote:

Why the hell would anyone vote for Bush, you would have to be clinically insane.

Well spotted Nick.

TwoShedsJackson

And what do you make of the allegations that Bush was wired during the debate? Picture available on cnn.com , news.bbc.co.uk etc. etc.

It does seem to show a box shape between his shoulder blades, with a wire leading up to his right shoulder - if he was being fed the answers during the debate whoever was doing the feeding should be sacked

Sparks

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

And what do you make of the allegations that Bush was wired during the debate? Picture available on cnn.com , news.bbc.co.uk etc. etc.
It does seem to show a box shape between his shoulder blades, with a wire leading up to his right shoulder - if he was being fed the answers during the debate whoever was doing the feeding should be sacked

And from the second debate, the question was "what's that behind his tie?"...

dahamsta

dahamsta wrote:

But anyway, any video? I can finish watching the first one while I wait for the second one to download.

There's torrents of both debates here.

therecklessone

dahamsta wrote:

Ah, an opportunity for a double helping of pedantry...

A myth "invented" by Declan McCullagh and perpetuated by people that recklessly don't check their facts.

:rolleyes:

I know (as would anyone who's read Al Franken'd Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them), hence the " " around the word invent...

dahamsta wrote:

And ironically, he'd be right.

Internet2 is a consortium being led by 207 universities working in partnership with industry and government to develop and deploy advanced network applications and technologies, accelerating the creation of tomorrow's Internet.

Sounds to me like a work in progress rather than the finished article. Doubt there's many rumours doing the rounds of it just yet...

Bungalow Bill

Does anybody know where about in the debate they talk about Bush's timber company????

That was really funny, but he does actually own a timber company!!!

dahamsta

I was being facetious darling.

bus77

ha ha The ejit wire tapped himself

TomF

I am confident that most American voters with enough common sense to mark a ballot correctly will vote George W. Bush into a second term. At least we can all hope that Kerry won't get in there and turn world security over to the U.N., but that American voters will let him get back to his undistinguished career in the U.S. Senate.

I'd say any "bulge" under Bush's suit coat is evidence of some kind of body armour. I would also say that the White House would not affirm that it is armour and give a would-be assassin any more information than he already might have. All this in spite of Sunday's unfunny laugh-fest on RTE Radio presided over by Tom McJerk (oops, that should be McGurk).

RE*AC*TOR

TomF wrote:

I am confident that most American voters with enough common sense to mark a ballot correctly will vote George W. Bush into a second term. At least we can all hope that Kerry won't get in there and turn world security over to the U.N., but that American voters will let him get back to his undistinguished career in the U.S. Senate.

Hmm let me see, world security... UN?? George Bush??? It seems an obvious choice.

TomF wrote:

I'd say any "bulge" under Bush's suit coat is evidence of some kind of body armour. I would also say that the White House would not affirm that it is armour and give a would-be assassin any more information than he already might have.

I'd say George can't dress himself properly, and he got his braces in a twist.

BumF wrote:

All this in spite of Sunday's unfunny laugh-fest on RTE Radio presided over by Tom McJerk (oops, that should be McGurk).

McJerk, hahahahahahahahahaha, you are a card! You obviously have a team of writers working behind the scenes for you.

sceptre

TomF wrote:

I'd say any "bulge" under Bush's suit coat is evidence of some kind of body armour.

I hope to hell we don't see a codpiece-shaped bulge in the next debate then;)

mneylon

Bush came across as extremely arrogant. Some of his answers were too well prepared to be believable, although whether the American public can see through that or not is another issue.
The "weapons of mass destruction" came up more than once and I would have thought that he would have at least tried to sidestep the questions, but he insisted on talking of "threats". The "war on terror" spiel may have got him through this term, but will it last him another 4 years?
Kerry, on the other hand, was every bit the gentleman. Although he was debating 1 on 1 with Bush you never got the impression that he was going to take personal "swipes" at his opponent, while Bush tried to on every occasion.

Sparks

TomF wrote:

I'd say any "bulge" under Bush's suit coat is evidence of some kind of body armour.

On his back.
Hmmm.
Says rather a lot about his administration that the place he puts his kevlar is between his shoulder blades...

therecklessone

dahamsta wrote:

I was being facetious darling.

I know honey, I just thought I'd play along.

I much prefer it spelt dahling by the way...

therecklessone

TomF wrote:

I am confident that most American voters with enough common sense to mark a ballot correctly will vote George W. Bush into a second term.

And those that don't will have their's assigned to Bush by daddy's friends in the Supreme Court anyway...

TomF

Reference a post by RE*AC*TOR: where is our moderator, and what does he think is offensive? (The post is dated October 11th, 22:09 hours, in case our esteemed moderator needs help finding it.)

Sparks

He's probably still in a paralytic fit after reading this gem:

I am confident that most American voters with enough common sense to mark a ballot correctly will vote George W. Bush into a second term.

RE*AC*TOR

TomF wrote:

Reference a post by RE*AC*TOR: where is our moderator, and what does he think is offensive? (The post is dated October 11th, 22:09 hours, in case our esteemed moderator needs help finding it.)

Would you like to tell me which bit you found offensive? I'll gladly take your considerations into account.

PS is it me or was the post at 23:09? is cork in a different time zone? or just TomF?

Hobbes

TomF wrote:

I'd say any "bulge" under Bush's suit coat is evidence of some kind of body armour.

I would of said a training bra, but the current feeling in DC is it is an artificial spine.

sceptre

TomF wrote:

Reference a post by RE*AC*TOR: where is our moderator, and what does he think is offensive? (The post is dated October 11th, 22:09 hours, in case our esteemed moderator needs help finding it.)

There's a report this post button at the bottom-left of every post (it's shaped like a warning triangle). It links to the post so moderators, esteemed or otherwise, don't have to trawl through posts and time zones to find it. Click that rather than letting the thread spiral into a discussion on the post I can't find.

GuanYin

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

McJerk, hahahahahahahahahaha, you are a card! You obviously have a team of writers working behind the scenes for you.

Are they the same ones that write Georgie boy's debate material?

naitkris

The Register has an interesting article giving an opinion on what the shape on the back of George W. Bush's suit was - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/12/bush_wireless_coaching/

apparently they suggest the bulge is consistent with the type of device available at http://www.comtek.com/IFBCueing/ifbcueing.html which allows for a wireless earpiece

RE*AC*TOR

interesting, but the fact remains he was out-debated.

therecklessone

shotamoose wrote:

at one point Kerry said something about Bush getting $84 from a timber company that i don't think anyone understood.

Need some wood?

shotamoose

LOL. Hacksaw Jim Duggan for President.

therecklessone

therecklessone wrote:

So Al Gore "invented" the internet, and Bush thinks there's more than one of 'em...

And here it is, in all its glory...

http://rumorsontheinternets.com/