Does boards.ie have a policy on racist postings?

Zaph0d

What is the policy of boards.ie on postings that incite racial hatred? Is it policy to cancel them or to allow them to remain?

smoke.me.a.kipper

as far as im aware, those kind of posts get deleted. but im not 100% on that. maybe one of the admins could clarify.

Stark

I think policy is allow them to remain and allow other users to counter-argument.

ecksor

Zaph0d wrote:

What is the policy of boards.ie on postings that incite racial hatred? Is it policy to cancel them or to allow them to remain?

It really does depend on what you have in mind. Many posters appear racist but argue that they're not and will then attempt to debate all sorts of odd things on different forums. If they're staying polite then discussion ensues, even if it does get up some people's noses. If you've got someone just blindly advertising some dogma without attempting to enter rational discussion then a moderator may decide that that person is being disruptive and ban at their discretion. If someone is just being abusive and offensive towards other members or groups of members (and for that purpose I'll generally assume that all sorts of people are or could be members of boards.ie) then that person usually earns a rapid ban.

Esel

Is using the word 'knacker' to refer to travellers not considered racist?

BuffyBot

I think there is some confusion about the term racist here...

"Derogatory" might be a more appropriate word?

secret_squirrel

esel wrote:

Is using the word 'knacker' to refer to travellers not considered racist?

Not on my planet - its an insult alright but one that can be freely applied to anyone of any race, colour or creed. Its about as racist as calling someone an idiot.

Whether its politically correct or not is another matter.

MrNuked

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=189579

post number 11 is racist.

The policy on racist posts appears to be to applaud them in my experience. Racist remarks about travellers and Americans are very common. Racist remarks rarely receive a negative response. It is not very nice for people who are in the groups in question when they read this sort of thing. It is something that irritates me about this site.

"Knacker" is a pejorative term for a traveller. I presume it is a reference to the poor treatment their horses often receive at their hands.
They do treat horses extremely badly very often. I saw some horrible cases of this when I worked in the DSPCA animal shelter.
In order to select the bravest birds to breed for cock fighting, they cut the legs off them. The birds that try to walk on the stumps are brave enough to breed.
They also stole my brother's dog in order to put it in fights. It was rescued though.
I don't like them in general, but I wouldn't call them knackers on principle.

sceptre

MrNuked wrote:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=189579

post number 11 is racist.

Uses a racist term but it gets higher on my stupid ignorant scale than my racist one.

Post number 12 kind of deals with the stupid post though doesn't it?


Did you report the post by clicking the little triangle that looks like a warning sign on the bottom left of the post? Many mods don't get to read every single post on their forums and rely just a little on community policing.

sceptre

MrNuked wrote:

"Knacker" is a pejorative term for a traveller. I presume it is a reference to the poor treatment their horses often receive at their hands.
<snip>
I don't like them in general, but I wouldn't call them knackers on principle.

As an aside: the etymology of the word knacker. Where used to refer to travellers it's unlikely to have been originally related to their horses at all, despite the more usual use of the term to refer to someone who buys horses and turns them into dog food/hides/glue. The term's been used for about a century to refer to someone who makes toys or knickknacks, who was often, as with someone who made and mended saucepans, a traveller in once sense or another. Much more likely it came from there in the same way the word "tinker" did (tinker of course comes from the word "tink", the way a tinker would tout his business by banging a pot, probably with a spoon). As with tinker, it was once used in an accurate sense. These days almost everyone who thinks about the word just remembers the meaning to do with horses and assumes it was always used in a pejorative sense.

Like so many other words, it's a pejorative term these days because people use it (inaccurately at that) as a pejorative term, nothing more, though "nig-ger" (darned word filter) is in a slightly different category due to extensive historical use as an insulting term - but originally it was just formed from negre and/or negro (French and Spanish) via neger).

CuLT

sceptre wrote:

As an aside: the etymology of the word knacker. Where used to refer to travellers it's unlikely to have been originally related to their horses at all, despite the more usual use of the term to refer to someone who buys horses and turns them into dog food/hides/glue. The term's been used for about a century to refer to someone who makes toys or knickknacks, who was often, as with someone who made and mended saucepans, a traveller in once sense or another. Much more likely it came from there in the same way the word "tinker" did (tinker of course comes from the word "tink", the way a tinker would tout his business by banging a pot, probably with a spoon). As with tinker, it was once used in an accurate sense. These days almost everyone who thinks about the word just remembers the meaning to do with horses and assumes it was always used in a pejorative sense.

Like so many other words, it's a pejorative term these days because people use it (inaccurately at that) as a pejorative term, nothing more, though "nig-ger" (darned word filter) is in a slightly different category due to extensive historical use as an insulting term - but originally it was just formed from negre and/or negro (French and Spanish) via neger).

I love you sceptre.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Dr. Loon

merc, what's this eye shít all about?

BuffyBot

I thought your mans post was gas.. as he meant it to be.

One man's humour, another man's racist remark and all that jazz

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

amp

secret_squirrel

Anyhow I would argue that any post about travellers cant be racist on the grounds that 90% arent of a distinctive race. Travellers are a lifestyle choice as much as anything. Traveller <> Romany

Any true Romany's I have met have been as decent as anyone else - unlike travellers who sole ambition seems to be to travel round polluting every piece of public ground they can find.*

*I acknowledge that travellers too might be decent people but to be quite frank I havent met any I would approach to find out

pickarooney

cracker honky cracker

The filter itself is racist, it only bans slurs against one ethnicity.

Victor

secret_squirrel wrote:

Anyhow I would argue that any post about travellers cant be racist on the grounds that 90% arent of a distinctive race.[/SIZE]

What! You mean they aren't white / European / causcasian?

They are a distinct social group.

secret_squirrel

Victor wrote:

What! You mean they aren't white / European / causcasian?

They are a distinct social group.

Yep alright the previous post was poorly phrased. I was trying and failing to say that they werent a distinct ethnic group.
They are a distinct social grouping - based on a particular lifestyle. Which means playing the race card is about as valid as playing the race card for hippies, communists or artists.

Discrimation against them, and insulting behaviour towards them is probably some kind of -ism. But calling it racism - with all the connations that implys is polical correctness gone mad.

Karl Hungus

Tbh, it's all forms of stupidity, and if we banned people for being thick, then we'd end up with about 5 people on boards. And that includes me. I can be extremely thick.

Sarky

Come now, at least 3 of them would be that Bubbles fellow...

Zaph0d

secret_squirrel wrote:

I was trying and failing to say that they werent a distinct ethnic group.They are a distinct social grouping - based on a particular lifestyle.

Irish travellers can be distinguished from settled Irish people by their common culture, traditions, shared ancestry and language. If you look at some of the following definitions of ethnic group, Irish travellers fit into most of them. Communists, hippies and artists do not fit these definitions. You or I can become a communist, hippy or artist in a few weeks but we cannot opt to become travellers.

The legal definition of an ethnic group was established in UK law in 1983 (Mandla Vs Lee) http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/equality/Mandla_DowellLee.htm)
as follows:

For a group to constitute an 'ethnic group' for the purposes of the 1976 Act it had to regard itself, and be regarded by others, as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics, two of which were essential. First it had to have a long shared history, of which the group was conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it kept alive, and second it had to have a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. In addition, the following characteristics could also be relevant, namely (a) either a common geographical origin or descent from a small number of common ancestors, (b) a common language, which did not necessarily have to be peculiar to the group, (c) a common literature peculiar to the group, (d) a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups or from the general community surrounding it, and (e) the characteristic of being a minority orbeing an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community.

Google provides the following definitions of 'ethnic group':
(some of these links are dead)

A group whose common identity is based on racial, national, or religious association.
www.nelson.com/nelson/polisci/glossary.html


[n] A group of people of the same race or nationality who share a common and distinctive culture.
www.museum.state.il.us/muslink/nat_amer/post/htmls/gloss.html


A social group that has a common cultural tradition, common history, and common sense of identity and exists as a subgroup in a larger society. The members of an ethnic group differ with regard to certain cultural characteristics from the other members of their society.
www.socialpolicy.ca/e.htm


group of people sharing a common language, religion, history, etc.; group of people, part of a larger group, having a historical and cultural background that is different from the rest of the group. ethnocentrism : prejudice based on the premise that one’s own culture or way of life is superior to all other people’s cultures or ways of life.
http://web.isp.cz/jcrane/Glossary.html


A group that is set apart from others because of its national origin or distinctive cultural patterns. (See 225)
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072435569/student_view0/glossary.html


– people who share a common cultural background, including ancestry and language.
www.whitehall.k12.mi.us/curriculum/socialstudies/glossaryofterms.htm


A group of persons who are descendants of a common group of ancestors. (p.16)
www.mhhe.com/socscience/intro/cafe/lahey7/student/olc/chap01glossary.mhtml


people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive culture
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

Finally, the travellers' own lobby group web site defines ethnic group like this:

It is a group one is born into and which shares a common ancestry, culture, history, tradition and sense of belonging or peoplehood and is a political and economic interest group. Ethnicity is a way of categorising people on the basis of self-identification and ascription by others.

http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_racism_a.html

Zaph0d

ecksor wrote:

It really does depend on what you have in mind.

This is what I had in mind:

• Posts that insult an ethnic group in a way likely to incite hatred of that group.
• Posts that make unsourced allegations of criminality against an ethnic group.
• Posts that advocate the extermination, extinction, mass forced migration, torture or violence against an ethnic group.
• Posts that allege that an ethnic group is subhuman and, by inference, worthy of being eradicated by pest control.

I find these posts offensive and upsetting. However, I accept and understand that this is not justificaton for banning these posts.

Justification for banning these posts is provided by the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA19Y1989.html). This act outlaws publication of material likely to incite hatred of a group on grounds of ethnic origin. The first page of the act specifically refers to membership of the travelling community as being covered by the legislation.

The penalty for breaching this law can be as severe as a prison sentence of up to 6 months for a first offence, or up to two years for a second offence. These penalties apply to the directors of the company that publishes the material.

Many countries have sad chapters in their histories when large scale violent abuses of human rights have taken place against minority ethnic groups. These actions have often been preceded by published or broadcast incitements of hatred based on false and unsourced allegations. A turning point is reached when people believe that the minority group is 'subhuman scum' (a phrase used by one boards poster). At this point violent eradication becomes a reasonable solution to the 'racial problem'. You can pick almost any country in the world as an example.

Threads on boards.ie follow the spontaneous and entertaining patterns of spoken conversation. They often contain falsehoods, urban myths, anecdotes, hearsay and half-remembered conversations presented as facts. Posts may start with 'Everyone knows that...', 'you just have to face the fact that...', 'I speak for the majority when I say that...'. They may make reference to false statistics 'Over 90% of these cars are unreliable.'. They make casual insults. So it is unsurprising when the same patterns of argument are used to discuss racial issues. I don't believe that the posters have any malice, they are just dealing with the topic of race in the same way as they deal with any other topic. One poster illustrates this by saying

much in the same way I dont like knackers and I dont like bagels

So I am asking that the admins or the directors of boards.ie form a clear policy on racist postings, how they are defined and how they should be dealt with. If that policy is published then there will be no confusion for the mods and boards can keep on the right side of the law.

An alternative would be to move boards.ie offshore to a country that doesn't have incitement to hatred legislation. The last alternative is to chance it and hope that nobody complains to the DPP.

PcP

It's a discussion forum. Is it not better to discuss peoples prejudices rationally and openly than let them fester away in the background? Posts which are blatantly racist tend to get discredited pretty fast from what I've read.

I don't like bagels btw.

Zaph0d

PcP wrote:

It's a discussion forum. Is it not better to discuss peoples prejudices rationally and openly than let them fester away in the background?

Yes, I agree. It is possible and healthy to discuss issues of race without breaking the law. I am suggesting that for this to take place would require clear guidelines on what is and isn't allowed. It would also require a strict standard of modding. The Personal Issues forum allows people to make very personal revelations about themselves and yet manages to prevent cruel idiots from laughing at people for doing so. Presumably this is the result of strict modding.

Posts which are blatantly racist tend to get discredited pretty fast from what I've read.

Some posts are not blatantly racist - they merely contain false allegations against a race presented as facts. These allegations may be likely to incite hatred. These posts are less likely to be challenged or discredited.

The Corinthian

PcP wrote:

I don't like bagels btw.

Anti-semite.

PcP

We must build a wall, Teh Bagel Wall and rid ourselves of the bagel eater scum once and for all.
You're either with us, or with the bagels.

sceptre

Zaph0d wrote:

Irish travellers can be distinguished from settled Irish people by...

Those links are good enough to get anyone an A in UL's Eoin Devereux' sociology class (pretty much the entire course is predicated on "if travellers are an ethnic minority group..."). Must forward them on to people i know doing that.