Integrated ticketing strategy for Dublin commuters

vinnyfitz

Does anyone know what is the current state of play concerning integrated ticketing between Dart, Bus and Luas?

This has been on the agenda for years but does anyone know what is actually happening?
The logical system would be for each company to sell tickets that allow you use the entire network without further ticketing.
If any company is loosing out on revenue (carrying more passengers than their share of ticket sales) you could have a rebalancing fund running in the background which would could be based on surveys and other pasenger behaviour analysis.

I have heard, though, that a much more complex and non-user friendly system is being envisaged whereby you have to swipe a ticket every time you change mode...

Any info welcomed.

Flukey

Not official, but I remember seeing somewhere that it would be the end of next year, but you know what this country is like, so it could be a lot longer.

John R

There is already an extensive range of single ticket integrated ticketing.

The contactless smartcard based system is being installed on some busses to test the system before the end of the year. The IE and luas ticket vending machines are already compatible but the IE validating machines will need to be upgraded.

Obviously no matter what system is used the tickets will have to be validated every time you use a bus or train

sliabh

The original plan was actually for the end of this year, but I believe it has now been pushed out to spring next year.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a further delay. And that is not the usual negative chat you hear here. The crowd I work for were involved in bidding for the tender (we didn't get it) and the whole system seemed quite complex.

The wonderful RPA website :rolleyes: has a progress section [http://www.rpa.ie/?id=31] and they are giving implementation to start in October 2004 with full roll out complete by December 2005.

Make of that what you will.

vinnyfitz

Thanks for the info John R. Can I ask some follow up info though?

There is already an extensive range of single ticket integrated ticketing.

Is there? Can you give some examples?

The contactless smartcard based system is being installed on some busses to test the system before the end of the year. The IE and luas ticket vending machines are already compatible but the IE validating machines will need to be upgraded.

By IE do you mean Irish Rail/Iarnrod Eireann? Does this apply to both dart and commuter trains? What about Dublin Bus?

Obviously no matter what system is used the tickets will have to be validated every time you use a bus or train

Is this obvious? Would it not be more simple if consumers just bought "transport tickets" valid for X hours or X days or X weeks which could be used on Luas, CIE buses, trains and even routes operated by other bus companies?

vinnyfitz

sliabh wrote:

The original plan was actually for the end of this year, but I believe it has now been pushed out to spring next year.

Thanks for that sliabh. TBH I did not know that the RPA were responsible for this project. The link had a small error but the page is
here.

Its a pity the RPA do not put dates on their "update" pages.

BTW who did win the tender you mention?

sliabh

vinnyfitz wrote:

BTW who did win the tender you mention?

No idea I am afraid. Government work is handled in a different part of the company to where I am.

A quick google didn't turn up anything either.

John R

vinnyfitz wrote:

Is there? Can you give some examples?

Daily, weekly, monthly Bus/rail bus/luas and rail/luas commuter tickets, dart feeder tickets, IE through tickets including 90/91 bus and luas.

vinnyfitz wrote:

By IE do you mean Irish Rail/Iarnrod Eireann? Does this apply to both dart and commuter trains? What about Dublin Bus?

IE = Iarnrod Eireann.
All the rail commuter tickets are valid on any service that stops in the valid zones.
Weekly long, medium and giant hop commuter tickets are valid on Bus Eireann as well as rail and Dublin Bus. Giant hop extends in a circle around Dublin to Dundalk, Portlaoise and Gorey.

An annual all service ticket is available that is valid on all scheduled CIE services.

vinnyfitz wrote:

Is this obvious? Would it not be more simple if consumers just bought "transport tickets" valid for X hours or X days or X weeks which could be used on Luas, CIE buses, trains and even routes operated by other bus companies?

These tickets are available now and more should be part of the improved system but they still need to be read by a machine and validated on boarding bus/train to ensure people have tickets.

John R

vinnyfitz wrote:

Thanks for that sliabh. TBH I did not know that the RPA were responsible for this project. The link had a small error but the page is
here.

Its a pity the RPA do not put dates on their "update" pages.

BTW who did win the tender you mention?

AFAIK there is not one tender for the whole system. The RPA are only overseeing the integration part (god help us), and obviously the luas implementation.

Dublin Bus had been planning to replace their ticketing system for quite a while. They tendered independently of the RPA, although they had to be cross compatible.

They ordered from Wayfarer who supplied the current ticket system.

I had a link for it somewhere but can't find it now.

It is likely to take some time to install as it is very complex (and there are 1200 buses)
It will use the digital radio system to transfer ticket and passenger info real time and there is a gps location system option for fleet monitoring and control (I am not sure if DB have opted for this or not).

They are due to start trialling now on a few routes, no idea which ones though.

AFAIK the new system does not have card ticket readers so the current ones will be need to be used for a transitional period.

antoinolachtnai

I think that everyone's idea of what is meant by 'integrated ticketing' is very different.

The ordinary user believes that an integrated ticket should allow access to all modes and all transport providers in a given area for a flat fee.

However, the system developers' idea is more like a 'wallet' that can be used to purchase credit for travel on any provider or mode.

Potentially the same system could be used to implement a 'weekly' ticket, but it wouldn't make the ticket any cheaper than it was at the moment.

I think it will be pretty difficult to get this system to work well. There is a lot of data transfer, accounting and conciliation required to get it to work.

The original point of the integrated ticketing initiative was to allow users to change bus or onto/off a train without having to buy a second ticket. It remains to be seen whether this objective will actually be achieved.

A lot will depend on how privatization works out. If there are a lot of private companies involved, and the routes are given out on a 'franchise' basis, then it will be tough to coordinate them all into a single system. It will be extremely hard to operate a season ticket amongst them all, especially if there are very small players plying only a few routes in the game.

Integrated ticketing is not really all that relevant to medium- or long-haul/intercity bus journeys. For these, booking and ticketing really need to be integrated and the smartcard system doesn't lend itself to this.

I am an outsider to this project, but given my experience with other IT implementations, I think it would be extremely challenging to roll out even a very limited integrated ticketing system in Dublin before the end of next year using the smartcard technology. This is not because of the people involved (I have no doublt that they're very capable) but because of the strategic uncertainty, the technical complexity, the accounting complexity, the number of parties involved, the sheer size of the network and the cost of the components, readers and smartcards.

BrianD

JOhn R raises a very valid point. There is already a range of integrated ticketing available in Dublin. One has to ask is this a red herring? The majority of people still pay a cash fare when they get on a bus so weekly tickets that save money never mind integrated ticketing have yet to catch on!

World wide it would seem that the majority of integrated tickets are multi-journey tickets for a fixed period of time e.g. weekly, monthly. A daily ticket is rarely bought onboard a public transport vehicle but either in a retail outlet or a train/tram station. Therefore an integrated ticket is no going to be available to the cash fare customers who dominate bus transport.

Integrated ticketing is available yet the travelling public don't seem to be that keen on them!

antoinolachtnai

It does depend on what you mean by integrated ticketing. There are a lot of subtle variations on the theme.

In practical terms, it does appear that users will only adopt any system if it is either:

a. required to have a ticket before boarding (not really viable outside the centre city) or

b. you can get a pretty good discount (at least 10 percent, realistically nearer 20 percent) as an incentive.

In London, cash fares no longer dominate bus transport because they have implemented both of the above steps.

There was never a customer demand for integrated ticketing. The basis for the whole thing is the idea of a 'rebate' or a 'discount' for users who change from one bus or train to another bus or train.

It's important to read

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2648.pdf

to understand the original motivation.

Additionally, bus operators would in principle like to reduce the amount of cash handled on the bus.

Victor

What are the little black boxes fitted next to the old ticket validators on some Dublin Bus busses? About 120 x 40 x 200mm.

John R

Victor wrote:

What are the little black boxes fitted next to the old ticket validators on some Dublin Bus busses? About 120 x 40 x 200mm.

AFAIK they are the smart card readers fitted to some buses for the initial trials.

Sesshoumaru

I was on holidays in Hong Kong last month with my wife and over there they use the Octopus smart card system. It can be used on all public transport in Hong Kong e.g. bus, underground, rail, ferrys and taxis. Its a permanent card which stores the money on the card and the money is debucted from your smart card by passing it over a contactless reader which displays the cost of the journey and your remaining balance. I found it to be fantastic to use. I could put as little or as much money into my smart card as I liked and it would only expire if I didn't top it up within 3 years. I could also use it in fast food restaurants(kfc, burger king etc), 711 stores, supermarkets, cloths stores and all vending machines in the city. It was great not having to fumble around in my wallet or bag looking for the card as I could just pass my wallet/bag in front of the reader and it could read the smart card no problem. In fact this is what most hong kong residents seemed to do. During my 2 week stay there I can't recall a single time stepping on board a bus there and seeing anyone paying with coins. It was just so nice to be able to use every type of public transport in Hong Kong without having to use different ticketing systems like we have in Dublin.

I couldn't help thinking we are in the flintstones era with our non integrated non permanent paper ticketing system. It gets even worse when you consider Hong Kong introduced this system in 1997. Another thing I found was that I really didn't miss my car when I was over there. Whereas over here whenever I use our public transport I can't help but think my car is more comfortable even if it means spending a bit longer sitting in traffic.

http://www.fact-index.com/o/oc/octopus_card.html

I really don't think there is any chance that we will introduce something as good as this in Dublin. But I live in hope

sliabh

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I really don't think there is any chance that we will introduce something as good as this in Dublin. But I live in hope

As well as cashless transport from my experiences in Munich I'd add a zone based transport system that is agnostic about whatever mode of transport you are taking. You should just have to pay your fare for whatever number of zones and then it should not matter whether you go by Dart, Luas or Bus or a combination of these.

But again we live in hope!

Sesshoumaru

sliabh wrote:

As well as cashless transport from my experiences in Munich I'd add a zone based transport system that is agnostic about whatever mode of transport you are taking. You should just have to pay your fare for whatever number of zones and then it should not matter whether you go by Dart, Luas or Bus or a combination of these.

But again we live in hope!

Yes the overground train and underground in Hong Kong was like this. Your smart card is read as you enter the station with no money being deducted and once you exit the overground/underground system at your destination it is read again and then money is deducted from the smart card for the numbers of stops you went through. Simple and elegant system!

John R

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I really don't think there is any chance that we will introduce something as good as this in Dublin. But I live in hope

The system currently being introduced is very similar to the one you described, it will allow credit for cash journeys and daily/weekly/monthly/annual tickets to be stored.

How good the system is depends on the operation by the companies and use by the public.

Hopefully once the system is up and running the government will allow a big surcharge for cash payment of single tickets to discourage people paying cash on buses.

dazberry

John R wrote:

Hopefully once the system is up and running the government will allow a big surcharge for cash payment of single tickets to discourage people paying cash on buses.

Can't imagine it to be honest - if they manage to not put a yearly administration "fee" on top of it. But since transport fares are so skewed to shorter journeys, I can't see too many incentives. Never the less personally I'd much rather the choice and convenience.

D.

Victor

dazberry wrote:

Can't imagine it to be honest - if they manage to not put a yearly administration "fee" on top of it.

:rolleyes: would you prefer to pay the "handling fee" built into cash fares?

antoinolachtnai

I suppose they could levy 21 per cent VAT on fares bought from the driver. Wouldn't that be fun?

Seriously though, cash fares do increase journey times, because of longer times spent at stops. As well as impairing the service, this also hits on the efficiency of the service, because buses and drivers can do fewer trips per day.

dazberry

Victor wrote:

:rolleyes: would you prefer to pay the "handling fee" built into cash fares?

There are no handling fees built into cash fares because more often than not within 6 months of a cash fare increase, prepaid ticket prices subsequently increase. Recall the last Dublin bus fair increase (where they wanted to skew the zoning system even worse than it is now - but weren't allowed) while mooting how prepaid tickets were cheaper. Within 6 months the prepaid versions of those fares had reached parity. I would believe that if cash fares are increased (under whatever guise) that prepaid fares of whatever form will in the short to medium term follow suit.

However my reference to "administration" fees was not that of actually covering the extra overhead of the system, but some genius in the goverment seeing it as another form of revenue - hey its like a bank link card, lets slap E10 a year on and call it the "Integrated transport levy"

But the devil is in the detail, it depends how the new system works. I'm guessing John R has an idea . One thing is convenience, but the other is the zonal nature of the system. Needing to make only single legged journeys at the moment, the Luas is cheaper (and somewhat more flexible) than the bus in prepaid terms although individual Luas fares are more expensive. The cheapest option for me in prepaid terms on Dublin bus are e2.90 tickets (same as cash fares) - whereby I used to buy 5 every week. On these individual fares I can actually travel twice the distance for the same fare. If that was turned around (as per distance and transport agnostic) I could travel from here to say Clontarf via Luas/Bus Dart/Bus for the same price. This will not happen, therefore something has to give. In that respect I'd guess the zoning will have to change to integrate all transport medium, but by proxy I'd imagine fares will as a result increase for many as to reflect this?

D.

Victor

dazberry wrote:

There are no handling fees built into cash fares because more often than not within 6 months of a cash fare increase, prepaid ticket prices subsequently increase. Recall the last Dublin bus fair increase (where they wanted to skew the zoning system even worse than it is now - but weren't allowed) while mooting how prepaid tickets were cheaper. Within 6 months the prepaid versions of those fares had reached parity. I would believe that if cash fares are increased (under whatever guise) that prepaid fares of whatever form will in the short to medium term follow suit.

Are you saying there is now costs involved in collecting fares (in man time and delays), sorting & bagging coins and lodging it to the bank?

dazberry

Victor wrote:

Are you saying there is now costs involved in collecting fares (in man time and delays), sorting & bagging coins and lodging it to the bank?

No, I'm saying there is no discrimination against those costs against certain prepaid tickets. Look at the "2 Easy tickets", same price as the cash fares.

D.