David Mc Redmond on Eamonn Dunphy show (transcript)

bealtine

PRESENTER - EAMON DUNPHY
Welcome back to the Breakfast Show. It's 7.44 and now we are going to turn
to a story that should interest everybody in this country who is a customer
of Eircom. Last Sunday the Sunday Business Post led with a story of Eircom
overcharging and yesterday they returned to that story with some fascinating
insights that shocked me as a consumer and we are joined now by David
McRedmond who is Eircom's commercial director and he is with me in the studio
and on the phone by David G. Nolan who is an independent telephone systems
consultant and the person who has been watching Eircom since 1988 and his
business is to check that you are not being overcharged if you are a business
or indeed an individual, on your phone bills. David G Nolan, good morning to
you.

DAVID G. NOLAN, INDEPENDENT TELEPHONE SYSTEMS CONSULTANT
Good morning, Eamon.

EAMON DUNPHY
Thanks very much for joining us and what you do is fascinating and there are
many instances where you have got substantial rebates for businesses and
individuals. Can I ask you first of all about - you had a letter in
yesterday's Business Post reacting to Eircom's reaction to your - to the
story the week before. What is going on here, David?

DAVID G. NOLAN
Well, basically it boils down to the billing primarily on business telephone
bills where the equipment rental item on the bill is not itemised, the
equipment rental charge is not itemised and also I've found that Eircom are
still charging for directory entries some two and a half years after they
sold their interest in directories publishing.

EAMON DUNPHY
Now, you got a refund last May of 16,000 Euro for a hospital, you also got a
refund for a hotel business of 16,000 pounds that was, in 1998, that was the
old punts, so we are talking substantial sums of money here, David.

DAVID G. NOLAN
Yes, they can be very substantial.

EAMON DUNPHY
Okay, David McRedmond, good morning to you.

DAVID McREDMOND, EIRCOM COMMERCIAL DIRECTOR
Good morning.

EAMON DUNPHY
Thank you for joining us in studio. This will concern many people as indeed
will another aspect of this story that Kathleen Barrington in yesterday's
Business Post highlighted, that is calls being routed through the Solomon
Islands and New Zealand. One young lady here, Breffney O'Rourke, had a
refund of 546 pounds, she was a victim of an autodialler scam. First of all
to the larger question that David G. Nolan's research raises, the question of
overcharging.

DAVID McREDMOND
Well, you know, I would begin - this story appeared last Sunday about 8 days
ago and then was repeated yesterday. I denied it a week ago and I deny it
again. Eircom doesn't overcharge customers, doesn't systematically
overcharge customers and isn't involved as was the claim last week in
systematic hidden charges. The evidence yesterday - there were two items of
evidence, one as you say was from the last decade. I couldn't even begin to
go into it, 1994 to 1998 and I'm sure it was regrettable at the time, I'm
sure it shouldn't have happened but that is some time back when the State
owned the telecomm company.

The second one was from last May where a senior executive in Eircom wrote to
David Nolan and apologised there was this incident and that's what companies
should do. I'm not saying we're perfect, we do make errors, we bill over 15
million bills a year, we issue, we do make errors and if there is an error we
should apologise and we should refund immediately and that's what we've done.

The final thing I'd say in relation to billing is there is no company
subject to the scrutiny that Eircom is subject to. We have a national
regulator. Last year we had two statutory audits, we have internal audits.
Last year we had an external compliance audit and I don't know any other
company in this country obliged to have an external compliance audit which is
required to look at billing issues and which said there were no material
items of non-compliance.

Now, that says to me there is an unbelievably high standard, a standard of
scrutiny that isn't borne by other companies and Eircom seems to stand up
pretty well to it, not to say there aren't errors and not to say we shouldn't
apologise for those.

bealtine

EAMON DUNPHY
Okay, David Nolan, you wrote to the Business Post yesterday saying, "If David
McRedmond" - who is here - "and others can face a public debate on the issues
I and others will be delighted to oblige". You have heard what David has to
say there, it is not systematic, how do you respond to that?

DAVID G. NOLAN
Well, in my letter to the editor yesterday I mentioned that I provided the
Business Post with two examples from 1998 and 2004 and I also stated in that
letter that there are hundreds of examples on file in my office of other
instances in between. Every time I ask Eircom for a breakdown on behalf of a
client of the equipment rental charge I invariably find on almost every bill
that Eircom are charging for non-existing equipment.

EAMON DUNPHY
What is non-existent equipment?

DAVID G. NOLAN
Non-existent equipment would be items like external extensions, secretarial
plinths, switches and so forth that runs from in some bills a few hundred a
year to - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
And are these items that the customers don't have?

DAVID G. NOLAN
These are items that have not been in existence in some cases 10, 15, 20
years.

DAVID McREDMOND
Okay, but I don't understand non-existence. Were the products made available
to the customers?

DAVID G. NOLAN
I beg your pardon?

DAVID McREDMOND
Were the products made available to the customers, were they - - -

DAVID G. NOLAN
They would have been there at some stage in the dim and distant past but - - -

DAVID McREDMOND
You wrote in your letter yesterday and I can respond to it, you actually said
Eircom should be forced to do four things. I can go through those and
certainly I think the service that somebody like David Nolan provides a
valuable service. If customers can get more from their telecoms and better
value from telecoms, because they decide - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
Let's list the four things, here they are: you should itemise the equipment
rental charge on your bills.

DAVID McREDMOND
We itemise the top 5 items and we frequently get questions about our bills
which are their bills are too long, they are too detailed or why don't you do
a summary, and we should constantly improve the bill. We tried the top five
items because that's the most that anybody has. Beyond - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
Let's get David about that. David?

DAVID G. NOLAN
I primarily look at business bills as opposed to residential bills. I have
yet to see on a business bill an itemised equipment rental because there are
so many items they lump it into one number, they call it equipment rental and
then the charge is listed but there is no detail provided to the business
user of the equipment.

DAVID McREDMOND
Correct, the detail is provided through account management and we go through
and most businesses, certainly the larger corporates who buy most of these
items have very sophisticated procurement departments and we actually discuss
weekly with them, the sort of equipment they have. Now if there is a case
that with other businesses they feel they are not getting enough detail we'd
be more than happy to change that and that was the first time.

EAMON DUNPHY
Okay, the second thing that David G. Nolan called for was stop charging
customers for directory entries.

DAVID McREDMOND
We have stopped charging customers for directory entries. We have not
charged customers for directory entries since after the past three years
since we outsourced our directory to Golden Pages and so they are not being
charged for them. Now, there is actually a possible error here in terms of
interpretation which is we actually do not charge the customers for directory
entries. It can appear as a list on an itemised item and that just happens
to be the way the billing system works but the customers are not actually
charged for that, there is a block on our charging form - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
Let's ask David about that. David?

DAVID G. NOLAN
On two of the last three breakdowns I received from Eircom in the last few
weeks, top of the list there was directory entries and the charge for it.
Now - - -

DAVID McREDMOND
Now, that's - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
Let David talk.

DAVID G. NOLAN
That's coming from Eircom, Eircom is telling me that they are charging my
clients for directory entries.

DAVID McREDMOND
Well, that is what I'm saying, is that - - -

DAVID G. NOLAN
It's an error is it, a billing error?

DAVID McREDMOND
No, if you get an itemised breakdown it might appear on the breakdown but
that is discounted item - my understanding is that does not get charged to
the customer. We have stopped charging for directory entries.

DAVID G. NOLAN
Well, with respect, Mr McRedmond, I have been writing to your colleagues
since 2002 asking for an explanation regarding these directory entry charges
and nobody responds to me.

DAVID McREDMOND
Well, you know, David, I would be more than happy to deal with that. I mean,
the first I read of your instances was in the Sunday paper and I'd be more
than happy to deal with that.

EAMON DUNPHY
Let's be fair to David G. Nolan now, he's doing a job for clients of yours
and he has demonstrated very vividly that that job needs to be done.

DAVID McREDMOND
Well, I don't know if he's demonstrated that vividly. Sorry, Eamon, let me
say, taking a bill - you know there were two examples mentioned yesterday.

EAMON DUNPHY
He said he's got hundreds.

DAVID McREDMOND
I'm sure he has but that now is something that is impossible to deal with.
You are telling me to answer charges where I don't know the customers, I
haven't seen the list, they haven't been sent to me, it's not possible to do
that.

EAMON DUNPHY
Are you doubting his word?

DAVID McREDMOND
No, what I'm saying - - -

bealtine

EAMON DUNPHY
I'm not going to be heavy with you but I just want to be clear here, if David
G. Nolan has given instances to the Business Post he's also got hundreds of
other similar cases. I am prepared to take his word that that is the case,
are you?

DAVID McREDMOND
I am certainly prepared, if he sends me in those bills to go through them and
see them. Eamon, you are raising an issue, it's not a question of whether
you are taking somebody at their word. As I said, I'm sure David is doing a
good job for his clients, but these are complicated issues. They are not
always straightforward and they need to be gone through and the bills need to
be gone through and if David doesn't get any satisfaction from Eircom in
terms of responses, I'd apologise for that but we'd more than happily go
through them. I'm not here to answer an unsubstantiated claim.

EAMON DUNPHY
Okay, fair enough, let's go to item number 3, "Refund every customer for
directory entry charges backdated appropriately" - that's what you call for,
isn't it, David?

DAVID G. NOLAN
Yes.

DAVID McREDMOND
Absolutely.

EAMON DUNPHY
We've two Davids actually. Item No. 4: "Refund every customer for non-
existent - - -" - sorry, "equipment backdated properly". Now, David G. Nolan
are you any way reassured by what David McRedmond has had to say?

DAVID G. NOLAN
With respect, not a great deal. I'm somewhat cynical in view of my
experiences over the years in dealing with Eircom. It's extraordinarily
difficult to extract a refund from Eircom on behalf of a client. It can take
up to 18 months on occasion. They have had a policy in the past of non-co-
operation, not responding to - - -

DAVID McREDMOND
No, I'm sorry, you can't say - no, you can't make a claim like that.

EAMON DUNPHY
How long have you been there, David?

DAVID McREDMOND
I've been there since 2001, so you know, you can't make a claim that we have
a policy of non-co-operation. That's just nonsense, we don't have a policy
of non-co-operation, we work every day with customers. Now - and we reply to
customers every day and we deal with customers and we go out - one really
important aspect here, this is a competitive market, it's now a liberalised
market, it is a competitive market, Eircom has to compete every day. We
wouldn't be able to do this and be able to hold on to customers and get
customers to want to be with us if we weren't competing and being
trustworthy.

EAMON DUNPHY
Because you are such a big company, we all have our Eircom stories. David G.
Nolan, it is particularly important, isn't it, for businesses, big businesses
and small businesses to have this sorted and done properly and you offer that
service, that is correct, and you stand by that figure of hundreds of
instances?

DAVID G. NOLAN
Hundreds, literally hundreds in the space of the last few years.

EAMON DUNPHY

Is there any sign of improvement, David G. Nolan?
DAVID G. NOLAN

Not a great deal, sadly, it's an extremely time consuming and frustrating
exercise to have to go through on behalf of clients but at the end of the day
it can be rewarding for the client in that we can on occasion get a refund
and going forward, it means that we can cancel the 100 or 1000 or 2000 pounds
a year that the customer is being charged under this particular heading of
equipment rental.

EAMON DUNPHY
David McRedmond, just this case of a woman who was charged 546 euros for re-
routed calls, when she first contacted Eircom they told her she was
responsible for a scam that had nothing to do with her. That isn't right, is
it?

DAVID McREDMOND
Well, I think first of all it's Kathleen Barrington's report in there and the
issue of autodialler fraud it's a global issue, it's not an Eircom issue,
it's a global issue, every telecoms company faces it and every consumer - - -

EAMON DUNPHY
But you cut off her land line. She agreed to pay 10 euros a week even though
it wasn't her fault and when she missed a week's payment you cut her landline
off.

DAVID McREDMOND
Yes, but let me describe to you the issue because it's an issue which you
said would be of concern for customers. In terms of her case, we said we'd
review it, we said we'd refund it. Yes we may have but remember we're not
responsible for this fraud and indeed we are not even liable for it. As a
gesture of goodwill, absolutely, we'll go back and look at it. But for us to
know whether something is fraud, whether something in a bill is a charge,
whether somebody has made a telephone call is an extremely difficult issue,
it's not that straightforward, you do have to go through it. But we really
want to help customers in these instance and we're very keen and we've worked
very hard on auto-diallers. We have people monitoring all telephone traffic
in and out of Ireland and we've cut off 12,000 lines to deal with that issue.

EAMON DUNPHY
David McRedmond, Eircom commercial director, thank you, and thank you very
much, David G. Nolan, who is an independent telephone systems consultant and
you can reach him if you need help in these areas

lucernarian

Interesting interview, pity the issue of non-cooperation wasn't pressed further.
Btw could someone tell me what the correct charge is for line rental for a single phone line?

mike65

Me opens bill....54.03 for two months of which 9.27 is VAT.

Mike.

bealtine

Love the interview...?

Now make your comments known to all and sundry...
especially Eamon Dunphy and the Newstalk team.

dunphy@newstalk106.ie is the email

Bada bing!

-Toppy-

Go'on Eamo!!
Pity I missed it sounds like he was making eircom squirm ;-)
-Toppy-

eircomtribunal

bealtine wrote:

Love the interview...?

Now make your comments known to all and sundry...
especially Eamon Dunphy and the Newstalk team.

dunphy@newstalk106.ie is the email

Thanks a lot for your transcript.
This board is such an invaluable archive.

On the dialler issue:
How Redmond is trying to divert all attention from their Band 13 profiteering!

The questions he should always be asked on such occasions are:
Out of a 100 euro charge caused by a dialler, how much has Eircom to pay on to third parties and how much is their own profit margin?
Is Eircom prepared to refund its profit on the charge to the victim?
Is Eircom aware of any other Telco which charges € 3.60 per minute at all times for the countries in Band 13, which seems to be constructed by Eircom to concentrate their profits from Internet crooks?


I hope the Sunday Business Post article by Kathleen Barrington will encourage others to come forward and make noises. Once it becomes known how Eircom made millions from dialler victims, because of the high profit margin on the band 13 calls, it will become more difficult for them to say "we are not even liable".

P.

Ripwave

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Interesting interview, pity the issue of non-cooperation wasn't pressed further.
Btw could someone tell me what the correct charge is for line rental for a single phone line?

Monthly rental: €24.18 (including VAT)


www.eircom.ie
Our Products and Services
Phone Lines
First Home Phone Line

(Can't post a URL from the eircom website, because of crappy session management software).