Drummers and recording - Click track or not?

Dr. Loon

Well... drummers, when recording do you use a click track, or do you prefer to play au natural with no assistance other than your own rhythm? Or, if you have never recorded, what do you think you'd do?

Only reason I ask is to see how many use a click and how many don't or wouldn't. I'm recording this weekend and I've decided not to use a click track. Why I'm not sure, I suppose it's kind of like an insult to my rhythm to use a click track. I know I shouldn't see it that way, but I kind of prefer a live dynamic sound as well, and I think a click track would take away from that.


Anyway, what do y'all reckon?

bombidol

I think a combo of both works. personally i prefer music to have some natural feel to it. and if everything is spot on it sounds too clinical for me

Doctor J

Speaking with my drummer hat on I'd say drumming to a click is poxy unless you've really practiced it, and the studio is the wrong place to try it unless you're experienced. I much prefer playing to my own rhythm.

Speaking with my sound engineer hat on, I gotta push playing to click big time. It just takes so much messiness out of engineering if it's sync'd to a click track. If you want to use samples, midi or any triggering, then to a click is the only way.

If you are a drummer who can play to a click without sounding stiff, then you are a valuable commodity

Dr. Loon

Doctor J wrote:

Speaking with my sound engineer hat on, I gotta push playing to click big time. It just takes so much messiness out of engineering if it's sync'd to a click track. If you want to use samples, midi or any triggering, then to a click is the only way.

If you are a drummer who can play to a click without sounding stiff, then you are a valuable commodity

Yeah I understand the sound engineer point of view, but if you've got good enough rhythm, along with a good enough engineer, there should never really be a problem.

Must try the click track some time though.

robbie1876

Depends on what else is going down on the track and what the target market is. If there are keyboards, or synth percussion or whatever, their tracks will most likely be MIDI'd, so a click track is required. I would feel that there is ample room within a click track environment for a drummer to express themselves, without losing tempo.

It's not an insult to your timing to play with a click track, if anything it's a compliment that you can play in time with it. Many drummers can't follow a click track because their sense of timing is so fundamentally bad. It's good practice to record with a click track, if you decide to put a MIDI'd track in later in the recording process, you'll be glad you stuck to a click track.

Robbie

Doctor J

Dr. Loon wrote:

Yeah I understand the sound engineer point of view, but if you've got good enough rhythm, along with a good enough engineer, there should never really be a problem.

Must try the click track some time though.

It's not an issue if it's just a regular guitar band and the drummer is up to scratch. I was in the same boat as you, tried it for the first time in the studio on piece of shyt headphones and struggled TBH. When I was in time I couldn't hear the click, it was lost under the snare. That took some getting used to

It's a good skill to have, even if you never use it.

Dr. Loon

robbie1876 wrote:

Depends on what else is going down on the track and what the target market is. If there are keyboards, or synth percussion or whatever, their tracks will most likely be MIDI'd, so a click track is required. I would feel that there is ample room within a click track environment for a drummer to express themselves, without losing tempo.

It's not an insult to your timing to play with a click track, if anything it's a compliment that you can play in time with it. Many drummers can't follow a click track because their sense of timing is so fundamentally bad. It's good practice to record with a click track, if you decide to put a MIDI'd track in later in the recording process, you'll be glad you stuck to a click track.

Robbie

There'll be no synth or keyboards on our recording. Straight out rock, but I see what you're saying. If samples and the like were introduced, I imagine a click would almost be essential.

It's like when I'm playing a gig. I feel fine at the time, and everything sounds great. Upon listening back though, I'm bootin along! I get excited I suppose, nervous energy makes me lash it out, but anytime we've been recording I always consciously keep the time steady and have never had any problems.

Doctor J

Maybe get a metronome with a light, one that blinks out a flash instead of sounding a click, at least it would give you an idea of the correct tempo but you could switch it off by just looking somewhere else?

Baggio

Well I've never used one, it would be interesting to try it , and see what happens, Im not aware of my time keeping slowing or speedIng up,,so maybe will never need one..but then again never say never!

Doc.J.: are we set for saturday what time etc...give me a call..


ciao amigos Baggio......

Giblet

Has the infa-mouse baggio joined trusted none!?

Brother A

If no click track is used the drumming can get dodgy. If you are recording one track at a time the bass guitar will probably be next. To be in time the bass guitar will have be dodgy in the same places as the drums were dodgy. The same problem occurs with all guitar overdubs which will follow.

So you see even guitar bands need a good rhythm track.

I once recorded a band whose drummer messed up while playing to the click track. We continued recording each instrument until we got to the vocals stage, at which point it was apparent that it was all a terrible mess due to the drummers timing. We redid it with correct timing. It took a while but worked fine.

An option for not using the click track is to record the rhythm section together (drums, bass, rhythm guitar)...with guide vocals to listen to. This usually results in a tighter mix, particularly if the band is more used to playing live than recording.

Dr. Loon

Brother A wrote:

An option for not using the click track is to record the rhythm section together (drums, bass, rhythm guitar)...with guide vocals to listen to. This usually results in a tighter mix, particularly if the band is more used to playing live than recording.

Which is generally what we do. We prefer the live sound regardless.

Pet

I would be confident enough in my timing to play live, but as said, when tracks are recorded one at a time, I really would want to be spot on.

Another alternative (well, this depends on the studio and your budget) is to opt for quantisation at the post-processing stage. In case you didn't know, quantisation is computer-correction of the drums, as used by Radiohead from OK Computer onwards. Some see it as "cheating" (including myself), but it's an alternative.

musician.ie

If you are tracking the drums on their own, and the other musicians will be recording after, with your drums as their metronome, then use a click track. There are tricks to keep it from being too mechanical. When the click is being generated from a sequencer, you can make the click swing if the song calls for it. You can also set up a tempo map with the chorus running a few BPM faster than the verse for impact

If you're tracking the whole band live, then use no click. Let the band create it's own tempo map. It will make the song feel natural. Plus there's nothing worse than a rock solid click in your phones when the bassist is playing slightly ahead of the beat in a subconscious effort to crank the tempo up a notch. You end up playing between the band and the beat and the whole thing just sounds sloppy and stilted.

MarkF

I have to say, the very first time I used the click was when I went into the studio. It wasn’t due to me wanting to use it, it was because the engineer insisted I used it. so we started on the first track and it literally took me a couple of hours to work it out (mainly because the earphones weren’t good enough and I couldn’t actually hear the click) it was very frustrating as all the band were waiting for me to get it down and when in the studio, time is money.

I eventually got it and then all the other tracks were fine cause I was so loose and used to it. when listening back, I suppose it was a good idea to use the click but it really does depend on what sound you’re goin for.

Iv heard some recordings of bands that recorded live and they all sounded ****e. Not rough and edgy like they wanted, they were just ****e.

the_obsolete

As mentioned above, if recording the drum track by itself, you MUST have the ability to play to a click IMHO, the only problem is you really really need to know your parts since there's nothing else to guide you. Also, the drummer might think that s/he is in time and going on steady, but could be horribly off...a fair few people just have a bad sense of timing when playing on their own (and think they're okay...).
And even if recording the rhythm section together I'd push for a click, just as a guide moreso than anything else. I've tried both with and without a track playing with the rhythm section, and feel 'safer' (couldn't think of any other word) with the click on.
However I don't really feel the need for one live, makes the idea of a live performance a little bit more clinical.

musician.ie

Definitely recommend giving the drummer a guide bassline as well as the click, so long as the bassist is tight with the drummer. It doesn't hurt to record the bass while you're doing this either - you never know!

I was in the studio years ago with a very average bass player (this from someone who views the Ramones as the very pinnacle of musical endeavour). We were dreading recording him after the drums - convinced it would involve 50 takes and lots of comping. So the engineer gives him a DI feed in the control room to patch into the drummers cans in the live room as a guide. The guy is slouched on one of those executive swivel chairs, grooving away, spinning the chair from side to side with a fag dangling from his mouth, a mere 2 degrees above absolute zero. His cool disposition vanished as soon as he realised he was up - cue instant death-row-convict impression. The engineer failed to tell us all that he had recorded the guide bass for the craic. We played it back - and it was perfect! I never saw such relief in my life.....

Same guy, several hours later looks out the window from the control room to the reception and asks "Who's that little RAT?". It was Christy Dignam

Happy days

Mr. CooL ICE

The way my band is recording at the moment is terrible. We're doing a total backwards job of it, but the main thing is that it's for free cos we can't afford a studio at all.

The guitars were actually recorded first, using a click track, and later on, midi drums were used as the back ground. Then the bass was recorded, and now the drums are being recorded (or supposed to be, eh obsolete???). There are way too many downsides for it, mainly stemming from everything (levels, timing) being based around the guitars and i got a feeling it won't feel all that natural when it's done, but it does sound very professional nonetheless

Dr. Loon

Pet wrote:

I would be confident enough in my timing to play live, but as said, when tracks are recorded one at a time, I really would want to be spot on.

Another alternative (well, this depends on the studio and your budget) is to opt for quantisation at the post-processing stage. In case you didn't know, quantisation is computer-correction of the drums, as used by Radiohead from OK Computer onwards. Some see it as "cheating" (including myself), but it's an alternative.

Y'see this is all the stuff I hate about recording. All the "cheating" and that's why I'm inclined not to use a click. Quite simply I reckon you should be able to reproduce your recorded demo/album/whatever ona live stage. All this messing with computers just isn't REAL to me. I don't know.

If you're not good enough to record mostly live, then maybe you're not good enough to record at all!? Maybe the band as a whole need to tighten up? Anyone agree? I'm getting nervous now thinking about this recording

musician.ie

I do take your point that bad bands often rely on technology to fix bad playing, but computers and technology are great tools giving us a chance to do stuff we couldn't have dreamt of 20 years ago. The various techniques are merely tools for getting a job done. Single tracking is great for absolute control over each track, with no bleeds. If a take is perfect, bar one note, is it a crime to punch in and fix it, or horror-of-horrors autotune it? The likes of U2 and other big names couldn't pull off their live shows without a lot of computers and "cheating"!

the_obsolete

Hey quiet you mr. Chessington, my kit is you-know-where and I can't touch it until I leave for you-know-where at the end of the week! I have the same fear as you- that it'll sound....strange. Plus it doesn't help that I can't use a click properly so have to work from the guitarists' timing rather than my own...oh well, we'll just have ta see! I'l' see YOU on sunday Mr. Chessingtoon!

Mr. CooL ICE

Which alleyway is it again, Mr Obsolete? Can't wait to stroke your bald scalp...


ANYWAY, I don't think using a click track for the band is all that bad. But what I am against is autotuning which is bullsiht. With our recording, we use a clicktrack cos none of us are professional musicians or engineers, and are young, but if a bend in a solo is 1Hz off it's target, the whole thing is rerecorded until the whole thing sounds perfect.

Also, all of our playing has improved and tightened since we started recording. So recording with a click track can be educational too!

the_obsolete

My timing has always been tight! MUAH HA HA! Funk ye and yer feeble timing! Tho twas funny when we tried recording me to the click track without the rest of the band...I shall say no more before I get too cocky.

Also it's the alleyway down by that old Spar. I'll be there with me head out

pado

I couldnt use a click track coz i wouldnt be able to.I'd get to focused on the time and lose the groove of the music,especially as i'm a rock drummer.I prefer to lay my parts down along with the principle rhythm guitar or bass depending on the song.I think there is too much emphasis on perfect time:rock is all about the feel of the song.When Dave Grohl or John Bonham etc are beating the life out of the drums on stage they dont care about the time,but the dudes out there nowadays-creed,staind,papa roach etc have an almost clinical sound to there music,NOT a good thing!!! It sounds about as rocking as westlife....Although you have to look at the fantastic drummers out there who have the ability to do both.Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater, Carter Beauford of Dave Matthews Band..the list goes on.The other day i heard Thomas Lang for the first time, holy lord that guy can play.He was classically trained yet he can really rock.Check out his dvd or go to www.drummerworld.com

the_obsolete

It's all fine and dandy to play live without a click, but when you're slaving over drum parts for hours at a time in a studio, a click is near-essential. Also rock drumming is all about keeping steady and not flouncing too much- take Roger Taylor. He kept steady beats, didn't complain and flashed like a mofo fills-wise in the studio, whereas live you couldn't stop the guy grooving like a madman! It's all about the appropriate thing for the appropriate place. I bet you anything there isn't one half-decent session player that can't play to a click, solid as a rock.

Doctor J

There isn't a decent drummer out there who can't play to a click. Don't fool yourself, the likes of Grohl can play to a click and play well. If a drummer hasn't the skill to play with a bit of flair, that's nothing to do with them playing to a click track.

If you want proof, please have a look at Sean Reinert recording for Aghora here

pado

Oh dont get me wrong,dave grohl is no simple bash the skins & hope kind of guy, all you have to do is listen to some of the foos quieter tracks to notice his finesse- for all the cows is a great example,not to mention his work for q.o.t.s.a. Nearly all pro drummers can play to a clicktrack, I'm a big Dream theater fan,and Mike Portnoy has more training than I've had hot dinners,yet he can still lose that stiff studio feel on stage.NO led zep track has perfect on the button timing yet although they sound almost messy the whole band always come back together on that "ONE".That's what i was trying to say,i wish i could play to a click,maybe i can i just never really tried. Dave Silveria of Korn as far as I know didnt use a click on the first KORN album,yet it ads to the sound instead of taking away from it,but now listen to their new stuff,i cant coz it sounds far too stiff and over produced,over analysed.And yes all session players can play to a click,but if you listen to the likes of dennis chambers you'll notice that they sometimes play on top of the groove or lay back a bit and let the music breath a little,none of this robotic bulls**t.

Doctor J

Sounding stiff has nothing to do with a click track. Either a drummer can swing under pressure or they can't. Recording in a studio is a high pressure environment, one which a surprising amount of musicians don't cope well with. It's easy to freeze up and not play naturally in a studio. That's a good drummer/bad drummer thing, not a playing to click thing. Every drummer should make it their business to become proficient at playing to a click. There's nothing less honourable about recording to a click, in the same sense that there's nothing honourable about poor technique in any other aspect of musicianship.

Baggio

Hey folks,
I am really on the fence on this as I said before, I can't help thinking that IF you are playing and LISTENING for that click you'll lose concentration on where your hands and feet are actually at and perhaps miss out on flare moments..(a mortal sin to me folks!!)...and yet there's no doubt that perfect timing..(if there is such a thing)..is great to hear from any drummer. As Neil Peart says: "it takes a long time, to get good time"...funnily enouhg he says he really enjoys the extra pressure and concentration needed for recording in studio etc.
I think he used a click track for 1 particular song year ago live as it was very tricky and yet the bass drum was straight4/4 all the way thru, yet his hands were almost in a knott between hi hat offbeats and snare off beats over the top,,,so even the greats use them occasionally.

me Ill stay on the fence for now....ciao' amigos...Baggio...........

musician.ie

Playing to click is an acquired skill. Much the same as a skilled singer will pretty much forget what they are doing on the guitar, a drummer used to a click track will only be listening to it on the most subliminal level.

Dr. Loon

Well. It turns out we used a click only for the intros on songs, the reason being we layed the drums down first, and had to use clicks for the lads to get the timing right when they were doing their bit. Normally I'd put the clicks in with the hats/sticks and we'd remove them later. Wasn't bad at all... I really couldn't hear the clicks when they were brought in. Anyway, I'm fairly happy with the results.

Phil_321

If a drummer/musician can't play in time to a click track it's cos they have timing problems. Simple as that. The click is always going to be perfectly in time, it's the musician that is going out of time.
I'd say very few professional recordings are done without a click.