Sliproad onto motorway

joolsveer

Can anyone give me legal advice on should a driver entering a motorway from a sliproad give way to a driver already on the motorway (both drivers are in cars)? Or should it be the opposite? I wasn't able to get a satisfactory answer from the NRA or the DOE. Why is there not a yield sign?

Captain Trips

joolsveer wrote:

Can anyone give me legal advice on should a driver entering a motorway from a sliproad give way to a driver already on the motorway (both drivers are in cars)? Or should it be the opposite? I wasn't able to get a satisfactory answer from the NRA or the DOE. Why is there not a yield sign?

I'd say that the motorway has a right of way as it is classed as an M road, above an N road, which you are theroetically still on until you join the M road fully. Think of it, going from an R road at say a T junction to an N road. The N drivers have right of way. Same thing is like, there are two lanes on the M50 say, and even if you have passed the 70mph limit sign before joining until you cross onto the lanes the right driver has priority. This also stands for why you can't just belt it up at 70mph on the breakdown lane (which the sliproad turns into) when the traffic is bad. It's not part of the "road", only the two lanes are. So you must join the two lanes.

Otherwise, the 70mph drivers on the motorway should have to slow down for the guy on the 30mph sliproad! I see absolutely no reason why this could possibly be any other way. In every situation in every road, when you join a larger road, the driver on that larger/higher-rated road has right of, way.

Exceptions would be roundabouts, where the roundabout driver has right of way. And joining a same rated road, where it's left to the local council to decide.

There is no yield sign where I live and to join the N11 you have to let the traffic on it take priority. Again, higher rated roads take priority.

seamus

Afaik, Drivers already on the motorway are obliged to allow drivers on from the sliproad, but don't quote me on that.
Preventing a driver from entering the motorway and forcing him to drive on the hard shoulder would be considered more dangerous than having to slow down for a driver doing 45mph.
It's not the same when joining a dual carraigeway.

Now, where's that damn rules of the road....?

mike65

Common sense should apply here. First use all the slip road, never try to pull straight into traffic as you wont be going fast enough.

Equally if you see a vehicle comming down a slip and you can ease off to make space do so. Check your mirrors properly and you could also pull across into the overtaking lane if necessary (but this should'nt be required if you pay attention to slip road traffic).

Mike.

Esel

joolsveer wrote:

....(both drivers are in cars)....

Wtf difference does that make?

Capt'n Midnight

When entering a lane you've to yield to traffic already in the lane.

It's that simple.

Doesn't matter if it is a Motorway or a turn lane at a traffic light.

Chalk

wouldnt the sensible thing be for the guy on the motorway to pull into the right hand lane.
assuming the motorway both lanes arent full already
in which case youd be having trouble getting on anyway

BrianD3

From a legal standpoint, traffic on the motorway has right of way and traffic on the sliproad is obliged to yield. There is no yield sign as it is impractical to put one on a slip road. If a driver reaches the end of the sliproad and hasn't managed to merge, he must stop there and wait at that point until there is a gap in the traffic. If he were to continue driving up the hard shoulder (i.e. using it as an extension of the slip road) that would be illegal as you can't drive in the hard shoulder on an M-way.

In reality, common sense should prevail. Drivers trying to merge should try to match their speed to the flow of traffic to enable a smooth merge. Drivers on the motorway should be aware of the presence of merging vehciles. Drivers on the M-way should be travelling at 70 mph or less and leaving sufficient gap between them and the car in front for a merging vehicle to move into. If a driver doesn't merge before the slip road ends it would be infinitely safer to continue on and use the hard shoulder than to stop dead at the end of the sliproad.

BrianD3

robbie1876

All true, Brian, but we live in Ireland. What actually happens is that you get 75 year old Biddy doing her weekly shopping, driving along the motorway and cursing at the people trying to sneak up the lane on the inside in front of her. So she matches their speed and won't let them out. "It's me against the world, yiz are all bad drivers!!"

Driving on the motorway in the UK is bliss in comparison. Most drivers are aware of the merging traffic situation and will move over to let other drivers merge no problem, most of the time. In time, with enough motorways, Irish drivers will learn how to drive properly on them.

The Muppet

According to the Rules of the road the driver on the motorway has right of way but there is a generally held belief among Irish drivers that the driver on the sliproad has right of way so as most others have said the best option is for both drivers to let common sense and courtesy prevail.

joolsveer

BrianD3 wrote:

From a legal standpoint, traffic on the motorway has right of way and traffic on the sliproad is obliged to yield. There is no yield sign as it is impractical to put one on a slip road. BrianD3

If it is impractical to place a yield sign on the right hand side of the slip road why is it not placed on the left hand side? Why is a Yield sign not painted on the road. The comments posted here have confirmed my belief that there is general confusion as to the legal situation involved.

Seth Brundle

A yield sign indicated that you may need to stop. You should not stop either on a motorway or coming onto one.
The whole idea of a slip road is so that a driver is given enough room to adjust their speed to match a gap in traffic. Merging traffic does *not* have priority.

BrianD3

Why is a Yield sign not painted on the road.

The road markings are effectively a yield sign. The broken white line between the sliproad and the motorway indicates that you must give priority to traffic already on the motorway.

BrianD3

mackerski

The answers provided here are scary in the extreme. Come to think of it, the question is pretty worrying too, if it came from somebody who already has a licence. The Germans have a point with their compulsory driving hours, some of which must be on the Autobahn. To bring some clarity to this:

* Of course traffic on the slip road has to yield to the mainline. All references and driving instructors will tell you this. And some of the contributors here, but many for pretty bogus reasons.

* The slip road is part of the Motorway. That's why they place the motorway plate at the start of the slip road. It's important that it should be thus, since safety requires that Motorway regulations be in force. Don't want anybody stopping to take a phone call or have a picnic...

* Notwithstanding the lack of a yield sign, the acceleration lane is coming to an end, requiring a lane change for you to proceed. You always yield on lane change, QED.

* You may and must stop at the end of the acceleration lane if you haven't managed to merge by then (per the UK highway code in any case, though I think other countries may do it differently. I've never seen any written Irish rule on this). This rule seems to be a catch-all to keep you off the hard shoulder. It should almost never come into play, except where the mainline is stationary, which makes a merge from stopped perfectly reasonable. In such conditions, German law mandates the "Reißverschluss" (zipper) rule - everybody on the mainline lets one car merge.

* There's no reason to assume a 30mph (or whatever else you may be coming from) speed limit on the slip road unless one is posted. Bloody stupid idea if there were one, the idea of trying to merge at that speed... People do it all the time, though. International precedent says that post-motorway sign, the general motorway limit applies until contradicted. The department here seems to believe in braces and a belt, since they always post an explicit 70 sign somewhere down the slip road. I have never yet found any reason to wait until that point before flooring it. Quaintly, the sign they often use on your way off the Motorway to remind you to slow down is our old friend the derestriction sign. You'll search far and wide to find another country doing that.

* I personally consider it a kindness to move into the overtaking lane to facilitate merging of traffic (and because often they'll just pull in anyway below motorway speed, requiring me to overtake sooner or later). However, to do so is technically a violation of the principle of "keep left, pass right" and of the law on overtaking-lane use (don't, unless you are). My advice - stand your ground in the left lane as long as it's clear that the merger will have room after you've passed and won't have run out of lane by then. Remember, the onus is on him to match his speed to mainline traffic. Courtesy dictates that, if you stay left and the traffic is dense, you should leave enough of a gap for the guy confidently to effect a merge. Remember that, in dense traffic, "couteous" drivers vacating the left lane approaching a merge point usually do so by discommoding the cars already in the overtaking lane, so if you're going to move out, think beforehand.

Dermot

sceptre

Mackerski's response is pretty darned concise & pretty much answers any question about merging traffic I could think of.

Cap'n Midnight's answer is good enough for the original question though:

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

When entering a lane you've to yield to traffic already in the lane.

It's that simple.

Doesn't matter if it is a Motorway or a turn lane at a traffic light.

Simple even if you half-think about it.

BrianD3

You may and must stop at the end of the acceleration lane if you haven't managed to merge by then (per the UK highway code in any case, though I think other countries may do it differently. I've never seen any written Irish rule on this). This rule seems to be a catch-all to keep you off the hard shoulder. It should almost never come into play, except where the mainline is stationary

Problem is - almost never != never Take this scenario: long line of traffic speeding at 80 mph and tailgating each other on the motorway in the inside lane. A merging vehicle may not be physically capable of getting up to 80 mph to effect a smooth merge before the end of the acceleration lane. Even if it does manage to reach the speed, a merge may not be possible if the drivers on the motorway are leaving insufficient gaps in front of them for a merging vehcile to move into safely. In this case the merging vehicle has two choices
a) stop at the end of the slip road and wait for a gap
b) continue driving into the hard shoulder (if the driver can see it is clear) and hope that a gap appears further up the road.

If it were me, I would pick option b) despite the fact that it's illegal to drive in the hard shoulder. Any vehicle that stops dead in a slip road is in extreme danger of getting rear ended at high speed by accelerating traffic behind. The resulting accident would probably result in the first car being pushed right out onto the motorway due to it being "parked" at an angle at the end of the acceleration lane. Also, if a gap did appear the vehicle would be trying to accelerate from a standing start without the benefit of any acceleration lane at all which would be scary

I'd rather break the law than risk my life in this way

Although these scenarios are rare, they *do* occur as I have seen them myself.

That's why I maintain that this issue is not quite as black and white as it first appears. Legally, the traffic on the M-way has right of way but for the purposes of general road safety, defensive driving etc. a little common sense should be employed by those on the main carriageway to facilitate merging traffic.

BrianD3

mackerski

BrianD3 wrote:

In this case the merging vehicle has two choices
a) stop at the end of the slip road and wait for a gap
b) continue driving into the hard shoulder (if the driver can see it is clear) and hope that a gap appears further up the road.

I see where you're coming from - and, in the case you've mentioned, if I arrived at the end of the acceleration lane, I'd probably choose (b) too. I can't say for sure, since in 15 years of driving on all sorts of roads, it's never actually happened. Part of the reason is that I advocate the missing (c): If you see merging problems ahead, pace yourself well and there's bound to be a hole in the traffic somewhere.

BrianD3 wrote:

Legally, the traffic on the M-way has right of way but for the purposes of general road safety, defensive driving etc. a little common sense should be employed by those on the main carriageway to facilitate merging traffic.

This goes back to what I stated above. While mainline left-lane drivers have right of way, they are also obliged to keep their distance from each other and to have regard to road safety. (And to stay within the speed limit - when was the last time an Irish Motorway had bumper-to-bumper 80mph in the left lane?). The only thing that will prevent a roadworthy car from attaining 70mph on the merge to any 70-zone on an Irish motorway is failure to accelerate soon enough while on the slip road. Some pretty basic driving skills on the part of mainline and merging traffic are all that is required here. The only on-ramps in the state that have tight curves are on stretches where a lower mainline speed limit applies.

Dermot

PS: Not all motorists are in sufficient control of their vehicles to manage to slot into a "courtesy slot" provided by a mainline driver, or fail to see it due to poor observation skills.

BrianD3

I see where you're coming from - and, in the case you've mentioned, if I arrived at the end of the acceleration lane, I'd probably choose (b) too. I can't say for sure, since in 15 years of driving on all sorts of roads, it's never actually happened. Part of the reason is that I advocate the missing (c): If you see merging problems ahead, pace yourself well and there's bound to be a hole in the traffic somewhere.

Not necessarily - this is Ireland after all - the country where lots of drivers DELIBERATELY try to block other vehicles. Eg speeding up to close the gap between them and the car in front if they spot somone trying to merge. Similar principle to speeding up when someone tries to overtake.

Then you have drivers who change lanes from the overtaking lane into the driving lane just as other traffic is trying to merge into the driving lane.

Also what about lorries or other vehicles which are a) speed restricted b) the length of several cars. I know we're talking about cars here but still.

The only thing that will prevent a roadworthy car from attaining 70mph on the merge to any 70-zone on an Irish motorway is failure to accelerate soon enough while on the slip road

What if the roadworthy car happens to be a Citroen 2CV?

BrianD3

mackerski

BrianD3 wrote:

What if the roadworthy car happens to be a Citroen 2CV?

A roadworthy 2CV will attain pretty much exactly 70 in the length of a slip road - as long as it's not doing it uphill. But frankly, it's a long time since I saw the left lane of an Irish motorway that was both full and at max national limit, so I think that our lorry drivers and Citroën enthusiasts should be quite safe.

Dermot

BrianD3

A roadworthy 2CV will attain pretty much exactly 70 in the length of a slip road - as long as it's not doing it uphill.

Not to labour the point but I doubt this.The fastest and most recent 2CV version (602cc engine with 29 bhp) takes over half a minute to get to 60 mph and is flat out at 68 mph. That's with 2 average sized passengers in it - put a couple more in the back and it'll be slower still. Haven't driven a 2CV myself but have driven a somewhat similar car - a Renault 4 which would have slightly better performance than a 2CV and was still outrageously slow.

BrianD3

The Muppet

BrianD3 wrote:

If it were me, I would pick option b) despite the fact that it's illegal to drive in the hard shoulder.
BrianD3

Its legal to temporarilly drive on the hard should to allow other vehicals to pass safely provided it is free of pedestrains and cyclists which it always should be on a motorway

mackerski

The Muppet wrote:

Its legal to temporarilly drive on the hard should to allow other vehicals to pass safely

Not on a Motorway it isn't. The hard shoulder is there solely for emergency purposes. You'll notice that the carriageway boundary on a Motorway is solid yellow rather than broken. The rules of the road do refer to the option of using the hard shoulder to allow other road users to pass, but the inference is that they are referring to single-carriageways. I'd consider it unnecessary and foolish to do this even on a non-motorway dual carriageway.

BrianD3 wrote:

The fastest and most recent 2CV version (602cc engine with 29 bhp) takes over half a minute to get to 60 mph and is flat out at 68 mph.

I know - making it just about doable on the way down a slip road. But I was being flippant, as I assumed you were when you mentioned such a vehicle. I wouldn't in reality like to have to deal with the extremes of aggressive left-lane national-speeders in such a craft.

Dermot

BrianD3

Its legal to temporarilly drive on the hard should to allow other vehicals to pass safely provided it is free of pedestrains and cyclists which it always should be on a motorway

This only applies to non-motorways. It is legal to drive in the hard shoulder on an "N" road for the reason you described. That's why the hard shoulder is marked with a broken yellow line. However on a motorway, the line is continuous and the shoulder is for breakdowns and emergencies only. Merging would not constitute an "emergency".

<edit> you beat me to it mackerski!

BrianD3

Victor

BrianD3 wrote:

Not to labour the point but I doubt this.The fastest and most recent 2CV version (602cc engine with 29 bhp) takes over half a minute to get to 60 mph and is flat out at 68 mph.

To be fair, most motorway on ramps are down hill

unkel

mackerski wrote:

You may and must stop at the end of the acceleration lane if you haven't managed to merge by then (per the UK highway code in any case

Are you guys sure about this? Total madness if it is true imho and I would never ever pull such a dangerous stunt :mad:

It should rarely happen (has happened to me maybe literally once or twice in nearly 20 years of driving), but if you fail to merge by then you obviously should continue driving on the hard shoulder until you can safely merge

mackerski

unkel wrote:

Are you guys sure about this? Total madness if it is true imho and I would never ever pull such a dangerous stunt :mad:

It should rarely happen (has happened to me maybe literally once or twice in nearly 20 years of driving), but if you fail to merge by then you obviously should continue driving on the hard shoulder until you can safely merge

Sometimes, of course, what's obvious isn't what's enshrined in law. I am mistaken about one aspect of all this - it isn't stated out loud in the Highway Code, or if it is, I haven't found it. Here's what the HC does have to say:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/23.shtml#228

Two relevant items here:

244: You MUST NOT stop on the carriageway, hard shoulder, slip road, central reservation or verge except in an emergency, or when told to do so by the police, an emergency sign or by flashing red light signals.

(My emphasis)

But 238 (extract): You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by signs.

Also 233 (extract): [you should] not cross solid white lines that separate lanes. (Though here the context suggests that this refers to the pre-merge hatched parts and solid continuation thereof).

This reference, used alone, seems to consider the two approaches equally (in)valid. Both stopping on a slip road and entering the hard shoulder are considered emergency only.

While I was learning to drive I did read some self-instruction books (UK-authored) there were clear on the principle of stopping at the end of the slip road, though, as I've said before, it's never happened to me and I would probably, in most cases, enter the hard shoulder if it did.

Dermot

unkel

Thanks Dermot, that clarifies

I interpret that as 244 overrules 238 and 233, so if you fail have merged by the end of the sliproad, you SHOULD carry on on the hard shoulder and merge when you safely can

BrianD3

I just checked some of the UK motoring and transport newsgroups on Usenet (google groups) There has been an awful lot of argument about driving in HS vs stopping on sliproad and about merging generally. Nobody seems to know for sure, it seems to be a discrepancy in the law.

I wonder what would happen if there was a broken down vehicle legally parked at the start of the HS. In that case, merging traffic would not have the option of using the HS as a "slip road extension" even if it were legal.

BrianD3

gbob

Sorry to rehash this old thread but I was debating this recently with colleagues (professional drivers) who are still confused about right of way. My own take is that you must give way when changing lanes is a basic principle of driving. Anyway came across this rsa document which clarifies all.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=motorway%20ireland%20slip%20right%20of%20way&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CGcQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsa.ie%2FDocuments%2FRoad%2520Safety%2FLeaflets%2FLeaf_booklets%2Fmotorway_driving.pdf&ei=e3k4UZv8GoesPYX5gfAF&usg=AFQjCNHCmdLsmughJI4GbqijmWlGMd2dIA&sig2=SfVIBxjmUz7cwy3d9CHe9g&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZWU

djimi

This thread certainly wins the award for the oldest zombie thread Ive ever seen on Boards

challengemaster

unkel wrote: »

Are you guys sure about this? Total madness if it is true imho and I would never ever pull such a dangerous stunt :mad:

It should rarely happen (has happened to me maybe literally once or twice in nearly 20 years of driving), but if you fail to merge by then you obviously should continue driving on the hard shoulder until you can safely merge

It's only "madness" and "a dangerous stunt" because everybody has a different idea of what's correct in their heads when really they don't have a clue but heard xyz from paddy in the pub and it must be true cos his cousins father is a guard. And half the country can't drive or read the road ahead.

Peanut2011

mackerski wrote: »

* You may and must stop at the end of the acceleration lane if you haven't managed to merge by then

This is completely inaccurate. The only time you are allowed to stop there is if the main traffic is at standstill. Furthermore all traffic already on the motorway must allow sufficient space for joining traffic.

Just imagine trying to join 80kms+ traffic from the standing start. The same way you don't pull out from hard shoulder straight on but you build momentum first.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

When entering a lane you've to yield to traffic already in the lane.

It's that simple.

Doesn't matter if it is a Motorway or a turn lane at a traffic light.

It's that simple.


Anyone who claims that the traffic on the motorway must yield to let you in doesn't understand the concept of motorways

gbob

Peanut2011 wrote: »

This is completely inaccurate. The only time you are allowed to stop there is if the main traffic is at standstill. Furthermore all traffic already on the motorway must allow sufficient space for joining traffic.

Your opinion is exactly the issue, check page 5 of the RSA document I linked above. You MUST give way to traffic already on the motorway.

paddydriver

What are "Professional Drivers".... Taximen maybe? They make their own rules!

Most of us drive everyday so we are all professionals.

Basic advice is coming on from a slip, is get up to speed and merge with the traffic. If you cannot handle this level of driving then you should not be on a motorway in the first place.

ironclaw

paddydriver wrote: »

What are "Professional Drivers"....

Zombie thread but I just wanted to add that 'professional drivers' don't exist in Ireland. Especially Taxi drivers. I have hours of DVR footage of them breaking even the most basic of rules. There's a minority of 'good drivers' and the rest are hopeless.

TestTransmission

gbob wrote: »

Sorry to rehash this old thread but I was debating this recently with colleagues (professional drivers) who are still confused about right of way. My own take is that you must give way when changing lanes is a basic principle of driving. Anyway came across this rsa document which clarifies all.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=motorway%20ireland%20slip%20right%20of%20way&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CGcQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsa.ie%2FDocuments%2FRoad%2520Safety%2FLeaflets%2FLeaf_booklets%2Fmotorway_driving.pdf&ei=e3k4UZv8GoesPYX5gfAF&usg=AFQjCNHCmdLsmughJI4GbqijmWlGMd2dIA&sig2=SfVIBxjmUz7cwy3d9CHe9g&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZWU

Start a new thread please.