Is this more BB ripoffs from Eircom?

watty

I can't get BB, but my friend has ordered it. (Eircom Broadband)

The ADSL adaptor came today for him.

1) They are charging extra for a "mail protection" scheme he didn't ask for.

2) It will be dynamic DHCp, not a Static IP, even though one aspect of BB over Dialup is "always on", thus in theory you are always using up and IP. Yet they want extra (each month) for a Static IP. I can understand paying extra for a Static IP for Dialup, but it seems a rip off for broadband.

3) They want to give him a new email address and website, even though those you have that you used on Dialup work perfectly on BB.

Oh, and though the gear came (17th) , it won't be enabled till 27th!

He still has those ancient round jack sockets that disconnect when phone is moved, (and the matching dial phone).

Seemingly the install is DIY. I think that most people either arn't able for this or will be adding an other "Zombie" to the Internet. He swears the handbook says you must disable your Norton or McAfee Firewall etc.!!!

I'll re-wire his phone sockets to all run off the ADSL phone filter and an Ethernet cable to the ADSL adaptor and either a Firewall on his PC, or on an old one he has. Perhaps add a hub/wireless adaptor as he might get a laptop.

It Eircomn reaches its goal of 100K subs on BB, how many wil be installed corectly and securely and howmany will be paying extra or not getting full value from BB?

Moriarty

watty wrote:

2) It will be dynamic DHCp, not a Static IP, even though one aspect of BB over Dialup is "always on", thus in theory you are always using up and IP. Yet they want extra (each month) for a Static IP. I can understand paying extra for a Static IP for Dialup, but it seems a rip off for broadband.

Why does he actually want a static ip? It's marginally unusual to get static ips over dsl. Charging a monthly fee for an ip is (iirc) against ripe policy. If you're actually sure they said that, you could let ripe know.

Oh and there's very little difference in administration/technically between giving a dialup or dsl connection a static ip.

Ripwave

watty wrote:

2) It will be dynamic DHCp, not a Static IP, even though one aspect of BB over Dialup is "always on", thus in theory you are always using up and IP. Yet they want extra (each month) for a Static IP. I can understand paying extra for a Static IP for Dialup, but it seems a rip off for broadband.

What would the average BB user want with a static IP address?

watty wrote:

3) They want to give him a new email address and website, even though those you have that you used on Dialup work perfectly on BB.

And your problem is? They're free - he doesn't have to use them.

watty wrote:

Oh, and though the gear came (17th) , it won't be enabled till 27th!

Would you prefer if the gear came on the 27th, and the connection was enabled on the 17th? (Yeah, you're right, it shouldn't take 10 days, but if you want to complain about how long it takes to enable, get to the back of the line).

watty wrote:

Seemingly the install is DIY. I think that most people either arn't able for this or will be adding an other "Zombie" to the Internet. He swears the handbook says you must disable your Norton or McAfee Firewall etc.!!!

Maybe you better start reading up on the equpiment that you're going to be helping him with. And do a quick google on NAT while you're at it.

Perhaps add a hub/wireless adaptor as he might get a laptop.

Eircom are offering a wireless router for only €50.

It Eircomn reaches its goal of 100K subs on BB, how many wil be installed corectly and securely and howmany will be paying extra or not getting full value from BB?

If everyone does it themselves, instead of taking advice from not very well informed "experts", probably most of them will be installed correctly and securely. Whether they get full value for money is a relative thing - anyone paying more for less by getting Broadband from eircom could probably get better value for their money elsewhere.

Ripwave

Moriarty wrote:

Why does he actually want a static ip? It's marginally unusual to get static ips over dsl. Charging a monthly fee for an ip is (iirc) against ripe policy. If you're actually sure they said that, you could let ripe know.

They're not charging you a monthly fee for a Static IP. They're charging you a monthly fee for the additional overhead of administering a static IP (managing routes, DNS services, etc).

As very, very few people "need" a static IP (as against "wanting" one), it could be considered a vanity tax.

Moriarty

It's still against ripe T&C's last I checked. They allow a once off reasonable administration charge for setting it up, but beyond that they shouldn't be taking any money for it.

jd

watty wrote:

I can't get BB, but my friend has ordered it. (Eircom Broadband)

The ADSL adaptor came today for him.

1) They are charging extra for a "mail protection" scheme he didn't ask for.

?

i was filling out the form and it says it is a two month trial and a set up charge of 50 euro for stics ip
aj

watty

There are lots of reasons anyone, not just a broadband user would benefit from a Static IP.

The point is not about how usefull the Average BB user would find a static IP, but the whole reason it is more expensive on Dialup, is that Dialup can re-use IPs (dynamic), since only a small proportion at any one time are connected. By definition there is no advantage to the ISP of a dynamic IP in terms of saving addresses, if a connection is always on. So a once off small admin charge might be acceptable, but not rental as in Dialup situation.

Most users in my experince as a Qualified IT/Comms/Computer/Electronics enginer (over 10 years TCP/IP) is that most people can't correctly install Email and have no idea what a firewall does or why they need one.

Computers and SW is not significantly safer or eaiser to use than 10 years ago, just the PCs are 10 times faster overall with 100 times faster CPUs.

My friend is a typical person. He can use a phone but has no idea how it is wired. He can send and read email, but has no idea how it works. He can read / write info over a network, but can't install a network card.

A normal human. I can't beleive that a high proportion of the proposed 100K broadband users are Technophiliacs.

Eircom was suggesting the new web and email address would replace the old ones, OF course most posters here would know that the old email and webspace will still work. Most people using Email and Internet are not as clued up as posters here.

Ripwaves post misses the point and is suggesting that someone is leading someone else down the Garden path, Only Eircom is leading folk "down the Garden path"

watty

jd wrote:

i was filling out the form and it says it is a two month trial and a set up charge of 50 euro for stics ip
aj

He may have misunderstood the Eircom person he rang. Perhaps it is a onece of Charge.

€50 sounds a bit steep though!!!!

Moriarty

watty wrote:

There are lots of reasons anyone, not just a broadband user would benefit from a Static IP.

The point is not about how usefull the Average BB user would find a static IP, but the whole reason it is more expensive on Dialup, is that Dialup can re-use IPs (dynamic), since only a small proportion at any one time are connected. By definition there is no advantage to the ISP of a dynamic IP in terms of saving addresses, if a connection is always on. So a once off small admin charge might be acceptable, but not rental as in Dialup situation.

DSL is no more always-on than dialup. You can keep the connection live for days, weeks or months but it's a still technically a temporary session. Static ips cause more problems - one or two - than they solve - none - for the average person. IP space conservation policys weren't dreamt up just for the fun of it.

Ripwave

Moriarty wrote:

It's still against ripe T&C's last I checked. They allow a once off reasonable administration charge for setting it up, but beyond that they shouldn't be taking any money for it.

RIPE says that "It is reasonable, however, for an LIR to charge a fee for administering the address space that they assign to you. The RIPE NCC has not stipulated a charging schedule. This is left to the discretion of the membership."
http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/faq/isp-customers.html#14

Using a repeating charge avoids the inevitable confusion that occurs when a customers believes that he has "bought" his IP address. It is the implication of ownership that is the basis for the "you can't charge for an IP address" rule.

By themselves, these resources have no intrinsic value; their worth is only realised in conjunction with the provision of Internet access. Thus, while registries may charge for their administrative and technical services, they may not charge for name space or address space as such; no unit cost or price tag can be attached to a domain name or to an IP address, public or private.

Despite this, nobody quibbles about annual Domain Name registration fees.

Ripwave

watty wrote:

There are lots of reasons anyone, not just a broadband user would benefit from a Static IP.

Name one - you've been asked twice, and still haven't given an answer.

Most users in my experince as a Qualified IT/Comms/Computer/Electronics enginer (over 10 years TCP/IP) is that most people can't correctly install Email and have no idea what a firewall does or why they need one.

Which is why the Router that eircom supplies provides basic firewall functionality (by virtue of being a NAT device).

My friend is a typical person. He can use a phone but has no idea how it is wired. He can send and read email, but has no idea how it works. He can read / write info over a network, but can't install a network card.

Which is why the router that eircom supplies can plug into a USB port.

A normal human. I can't beleive that a high proportion of the proposed 100K broadband users are Technophiliacs.

So then why does he want a static IP address?

Ripwaves post misses the point and is suggesting that someone is leading someone else down the Garden path, Only Eircom is leading folk "down the Garden path"

So far, you've been suggesting that your friend needs a static IP address. He doesn't. You've suggested that his computer will end up as a zombie. It won't. You've suggested that your friend needs to install an ethernet card. He doesn't.

The only thing that your friend might need your help with is his telephone jacks. And eircom will be happy to come out and do that for him too (for a fee, of course :-).

flamegrill

Ripwave wrote:

RIPE says that "It is reasonable, however, for an LIR to charge a fee for administering the address space that they assign to you. The RIPE NCC has not stipulated a charging schedule. This is left to the discretion of the membership."
http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/faq/isp-customers.html#14

Using a repeating charge avoids the inevitable confusion that occurs when a customers believes that he has "bought" his IP address. It is the implication of ownership that is the basis for the "you can't charge for an IP address" rule.

Despite this, nobody quibbles about annual Domain Name registration fees.

While this is true, they are NOT allowed to rent an IP address to the end users, UTV do this for 5 euro a month. This is a big no no. One off admin fee and then use of it is free from there on ward, I wan't to nip any ambiguity in the butt there

Pauk

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the static IP charge is a ONCE OFF setup fee, and thats it.

theres no other charges whatsoever for static ip

fightin irish

Wel im no expert on bb or anything like but like most things that i learned using pc', i learned by just soldiering on until i cant go no further.

Now in relation to eircom: i ordered my eircom bb, it arrived one week later and was told it would take a week for the line to register :mad: so i rang the tech help line and presto he switched it on the next day.

Also in relation to the self install: It was the easiest thing i ever did. I used the usb instead of ethernet cable, used the filters on the phone line and used my common sense and downloaded the free firewall from kerrio before i switched it on. I am also an ordinary joe soap who doesn't know much about bb etc.

I got a 3 month free trial and after that 60euro every 2 months, personally i was very happy indeed, all though i since realised im paying a bit over the odds but the help desk people are brillant and more than not know what they are talking about.

Jorinn

Ripwave wrote:

Name one - you've been asked twice, and still haven't given an answer.

I can give you two, if they wanted to run their own forums and not pay hosting fees, AFAIK eircom webspace still doesn't allow php.

Second, if he's a government employee or indeed an employee of any company he can use their intranet from home etc. My neighbour does this but he's only allowed cause he has a static ip and they just open it up to certain external ips lkike his.

Jorinn

fightin irish wrote:

Wel im no expert on bb or anything like but like most things that i learned using pc', i learned by just soldiering on until i cant go no further.

Now in relation to eircom: i ordered my eircom bb, it arrived one week later and was told it would take a week for the line to register :mad: so i rang the tech help line and presto he switched it on the next day.

Also in relation to the self install: It was the easiest thing i ever did. I used the usb instead of ethernet cable, used the filters on the phone line and used my common sense and downloaded the free firewall from kerrio before i switched it on. I am also an ordinary joe soap who doesn't know much about bb etc.

I got a 3 month free trial and after that 60euro every 2 months, personally i was very happy indeed, all though i since realised im paying a bit over the odds but the help desk people are brillant and more than not know what they are talking about.

Um, eircom charge premium rate for those helplines i think.

Ripwave

Jorinn wrote:

I can give you two, if they wanted to run their own forums and not pay hosting fees, AFAIK eircom webspace still doesn't allow php.

Oh right, so your neighbour who can't even configure his own mail account is going to host his own forums.

That probably explains why he's never heard of dyndns.org, and similiar services. (I don't know about the Netopia router that eircom supplies, but the ZyXEL that ESAT/IOL supplies actually supports this in the router itself - you don't even need to set anything up on your PC).

Jorinn wrote:

Second, if he's a government employee or indeed an employee of any company he can use their intranet from home etc. My neighbour does this but he's only allowed cause he has a static ip and they just open it up to certain external ips lkike his.

Good God, and my tax euros are paying for this? You think static IPs offer some sort of "protection" that justifies punching holes through a government firewall?

Have you ever heard of a VPN?

The Insider

Seemingly the install is DIY. I think that most people either arn't able for this or will be adding an other "Zombie" to the Internet. He swears the handbook says you must disable your Norton or McAfee Firewall etc.!!!

The router that comes with the package has a built in Firewall, thats why it recommand disableing your Nortan or McAfee, there is no chance that it will become a "Zombie" unless your freind decides to mess around with the Router config. It is pre shipped like this to help non-tech people like your friend connect to the internet and be safe.

As for the static ip part, well as Ripwave says if he is so none techy why the hell does he need a Static IP??

if they wanted to run their own forums and not pay hosting fees, AFAIK eircom webspace still doesn't allow php.

Your basic DSL connection is not going to handle hosting a forum site if it does remotely well.

Second, if he's a government employee or indeed an employee of any company he can use their intranet from home etc

If someone really needs a static ip like that then surely he can pay the charge, or go with a ISP that gives a Static IP (I think Netsource do) i am sure he will be able to expense it

Urban Weigl

The ADSL connection itself is actually always-on, and will always remain connected. However: Eircom uses a system called PPPoE, short for Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet. To actually use the Internet, you must start a PPPoE session, even though your ADSL modem is already connected.

Moriarty

Urban Weigl wrote:

The ADSL connection itself is actually always-on, and will always remain connected. However: Eircom uses a system called PPPoE, short for Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet. To actually use the Internet, you must start a PPPoE session, even though your ADSL modem is already connected.

Just to make that clear, the DSL connection between your house and the exchange is always on. The TCP/IP connection to your isp and the wider internet is not always on.

tipperaryboy

Just avoid eircom,trying to overcharge everyone,just go with EsatBT broadband,forget about rip of eircom & they are liars

watty

Ripwave wrote:

Oh right, so your neighbour who can't even configure his own mail account is going to host his own forums.

That probably explains why he's never heard of dyndns.org, and similiar services. (I don't know about the Netopia router that eircom supplies, but the ZyXEL that ESAT/IOL supplies actually supports this in the router itself - you don't even need to set anything up on your PC).
Good God, and my tax euros are paying for this? You think static IPs offer some sort of "protection" that justifies punching holes through a government firewall?

Have you ever heard of a VPN?

No-one said he is going to host his own forums, or anything else. Nor indeed that he actually needs a Static IP.

Personally I have used dynamic IP DNS service providers very successfully.

Actually a VPN is MUCH easier and more secure than a dynamic IP with VPN.

Haven't you heard of DNS poisening? Much easier with dynamic IP.

If the Static IP is a once off charge it is worth having, in case you want it later. Usually when you discover you want something like this in a hurry you can find it hard to get the Help desk / techie to make it happen.

Firewall configuration can be more secure on some products with a Static IP. On some products you can't set up a reliable inward map with authorised source IPs etc, unless your connection is Static too.

I don't find Mr. Ripwaves comments helpful to the discussion, just arrogant, as if he is a total expert and the rest of us are clueless.

Ripwave

watty wrote:

I don't find Mr. Ripwaves comments helpful to the discussion, just arrogant, as if he is a total expert and the rest of us are clueless.

Ah, yes, the old "I'm a Qualified IT/Comms/Computer/Electronics enginer (over 10 years TCP/IP) and anyone who disagrees with me is arrogant" response.