Ryan for President! Oh gawd, what next?

PH01

What's that all about anyway?

It looks like Labour are going to back Green's Eamonn Ryan for President
Eamonn Ryan, who I thought was a decent chap up to a few days ago, wants to fight a presidential election for the sake of it. Well that how it appears. He's not going to win. He's not even going to run Mary close. He's going to put the country through a Presidential Election when there really is no need for it when the candidate he's up against is so high in the opinion poll she's almost out of sight.

So, what's the point.

Here are number of reason why I think he's running besides promoting democracy.
1. Self publicity for himself and the Green.
2. If he gets more than 12.5% of the vote (which they should in a two horse race), the Greens get €260,000 back. So, putting up a candidate may not cost the Greens anything.
3. It'll give the Greens a bigger profile when the start talking to Labour and FG about forming the next Government.

There's other reasons I'm sure.

Also, you have to ask, why are Labour supporting the Greens when they wouldn't support their own candidate for the post?

therecklessone

PH01 wrote:

He's going to put the country through a Presidential Election when there really is no need for it when the candidate he's up against is so high in the opinion poll she's almost out of sight.

This is interesting. What do you suggest we do, have a pre-election qualifier, sort of like the Champions League qualifiers?

There's one poll that matters, and thats the election itself.

Meh

therecklessone wrote:

This is interesting. What do you suggest we do, have a pre-election qualifier, sort of like the Champions League qualifiers?

Isn't that what the nomination process amounts to? If he can persuade 20 TDs or four county councils to back him, then he deserves to be on the ballot, in my opinion. The constitution doesn't allow just any old idiot to run for president (as Dana is finding out).

therecklessone

Meh wrote:

Isn't that what the nomination process amounts to? If he can persuade 20 TDs or four county councils to back him, then he deserves to be on the ballot, in my opinion. The constitution doesn't allow just any old idiot to run for president (as Dana is finding out).

Nah, thats more like Eamon Dunphy oe Johnny Giles nominating Shelbourne for the CL group stage...

Seriously though, I agree with you. We either have a nomination process that we respect, or we don't. Does the original poster suggest that we limit elections to those who have a realistic chance of being elected?

I'll take the negative side of our election process any day, as long as we allow those who meet the requirements of a Presidential candidate to run regardless of their support.

mr_angry

Is Dustin not running again this time around? I'm devestated. That means I'll have to vote for a "real" politician.

I use the term "real" in the loosest possible sense.

tba

I think that people who think that Mary should run unopposed are missing a fundamental point.

She was voted in for 7 years not fourteen, let her earn another term. Not everybody in the country will vote for her.

PH01

therecklessone wrote:

Does the original poster suggest that we limit elections to those who have a realistic chance of being elected?

No, but let's put it this way.
If you're going up for election you would want to give yourself every chance of winning. Deciding 4 weeks before the poll to run for the highest elected office in the land is in my opinion misguided and bordering on being frivolous.
I would have had more respect for Ryan if he decided to run, and let everyone know, during the summer. Why leave it this late?
When Mary Robinson decided to run for President, we know 9 months or so in advance. She then launched her campaign immediately. She visited every town and village in the country on her canvas. She started as an outside, became a contender, then a winner.
Is Ryan going to do that? I don't think so. He has practically admitted this himself.
In the words of Monty Python, "...this is all too silly"!

PH01

tba wrote:

I think that people who think that Mary should run unopposed are missing a fundamental point.

She was voted in for 7 years not fourteen, let her earn another term. Not everybody in the country will vote for her.

Absolutly and you're right, but let's put up a creditable candidate.

flogen

As the lerned George Hook said, when the next GE rolls around, we can all be pretty sure that FF are going to win, so why bother having it at all?
Because its a democracy, thats why.
Let Mary state her case, and if she deserves to win, she will. Maybe Ryan has something to offer, I'm sure we'll soon find out, and who knows, we could have a new president in a few months time.

And what makes Ryan less credible than anyone else?

flogen

tba

I think I understand your position now
so is whats really happening here (it could be said) is that in a pointless bid to appear democratic, parties who have no desire to put forward a candidate are doing so at too late a time to stage an effective counter?

PH01

tba wrote:

I think I understand your position now
so is whats really happening here (it could be said) is that in a pointless bid to appear democratic, parties who have no desire to put forward a candidate are doing so at too late a time to stage an effective counter?

Yip.
And out of respect for the office of President that you us enough time to get to know you? This is not the local elections. Your constituency is the whole country. You are not going to be able to get into every town and village in the country.

mike65

When the issue of a presdential race was floated I was in favour but now I think differently. Potential candidates so far are ppl who don't understand the role of the President and simply want a platform for thier politics. Thank goodness Higgins did'nt get the nod from Labour. Rosemary Scallon is beyond words and Ryan is, as suggested a chancer. Methinks the job should not be filled by a jobbing TD but by someone of some standing and history.

Mike.

tba

If this is true and Labour have put up a Candidate merely to have him loose, my question is why bother?

A loss to the Candidate supported by both FF and FG is hardly good business for a party.

My suggestion is that they really believe that Eammon will win, based not upon how much flesh he has pressed but, upon issues that he will bring up in the next few weeks.

PH01

flogen wrote:

Let Mary state her case, and if she deserves to win, she will. Maybe Ryan has something to offer, I'm sure we'll soon find out, and who knows, we could have a new president in a few months time.

Would you put money on? I'm sure you'll get great odds.

flogen wrote:

And what makes Ryan less credible than anyone else?

I'm not saying that Ryan isn't credible. He's a good guy. Nice fella. But declaring that you wish to run for the office of president four in advance of the poll is a bit misguided don't you think?
If the Green really wanted to fight this election why didn't they declare this 3, 6 or 9 months ago?

flogen

I'm sure I would, but thats hardly the point. I'm not saying she will lose, but its not a totally forgone conclusion.

And you're looking for a credible candidate, by your own admission Ryan is a nice fella, good guy etc. and you dont have anything to say why he shouldnt run.

And one of the reasons this is happening so suddenly is because the date has not yet been set, nothing can be put into motion until the official date is set, and there is little point in parties deciding who to put forward, if anyone until they know when it will be and if it will suit their needs. Labour felt it didnt, the greens feel it does.
I can imagine the greens coming out in January 2004:
"we intend on fighting the next presidential election. We dont have a definite candidate... and we dont know when there will be an election, if there is one at all, we also dont know what policies will be integeral to the election, and so we have nothing to bring to the table just yet... but once we know more, we'll let you know".

Besides, it isn't so much up to the party to put someone forward than for an individual to show interest and then seek party support.

flogen

sliabh

flogen wrote:

Let Mary state her case, and if she deserves to win, she will. Maybe Ryan has something to offer, I'm sure we'll soon find out, and who knows, we could have a new president in a few months time.

Damn right. 14 years ago Brian Lenihan was the favourite to get the job. Look what happend to him.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Mary Mac will shoot herself in the foot or some skeleton will be found in her closet.

Cork

tba wrote:

I think that people who think that Mary should run unopposed are missing a fundamental point.

She was voted in for 7 years not fourteen, let her earn another term. Not everybody in the country will vote for her.

But, what would be accomplished with an election that niether FF, FG or Labour are putting forward a canidate?

Mary is indeed very popular and we are very lucky to have a President of her cailibre.

But, democracy is surely not served for having an election for the sake of it.

How much would such an election cost?

What benefits would accrue for having a one sided election?

therecklessone

Cork wrote:

What benefits would accrue for having a one sided election?

Would you suggest the same for any other election in this state?

If the outcome of the next General Election was considered a formality, would anyone seriously suggest that nobody stand against the incumbent government?

I consider this a show of disrespect for the office of President. I can see PH01's point about this being a attention-seeking candidiacy for Ryan, but you're stance is harder to fathom Cork.

arcadegame2004

I won't vote for him if there's an election but I feel that anyone should be able to stand for election to the Presidency. I feel that the ability of the political-parties to deny us that right is not on.

LegacyUser

I didn't read this thread, just saw quote PRESIDENT unquote and assumed you are all worryin about who shakes hands with visiting sports teams, WHY, who cares, it means NOTHING, ok NOTHING !!!!

Cork

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I feel that the ability of the political-parties to deny us that right is not on.

But if you collect signatures cannot you not get a nomination?

I know a Presidential election would be good for democracy. But with no FF, FG or Labour canidate - Is it not a bit pointless?

I was involved putting out a questionnaire regarding a Presidential election once which was for a local newspaper. One question was:

What purpose does this election serve?

It was a stupid question as the answer was democracy.

But is democracy served by by having an election for the sake of it?

What odds would you get on Eamonn Ryan or Dana in Paddy Powers?

I think the President would love an election but I think it would not be much of a contest.

flogen

Cork wrote:

But if you collect signatures cannot you not get a nomination?

You have to get TD's signatures, and many political parties (such as Lab) are not willing to support another candidate, and thus stopping many people from signing on their support.

I know a Presidential election would be good for democracy. But with no FF, FG or Labour canidate - Is it not a bit pointless?

hang on, you feel that just because FF, FG or Lab dont run a candidate that in an election which does not necisserily (sp?) have anything to do with political parties (as we can see by McAlese running as an Ind.), its pointless? How is that democratic? Just because the 2 big parties dont want to play, we should all pack up and head home?

I was involved putting out a questionnaire regarding a Presidential election once which was for a local newspaper. One question was:

What purpose does this election serve?

It was a stupid question as the answer was democracy.

But is democracy served by by having an election for the sake of it?

Well, thats the thing. As I said earlier most people would feel that FF are almost certain to come out on top in the next election, its almost as sure as McAlese winning another term, but to cancel the vote just because we think things won't change is stupid. I support a presidential election that is held as part of the democratic process, that allows everyone with something to put forward that right, and that gives everyone the right to earn a job that should never be handed out to someone based on assumptions, unwillingness to spend some money and a denial of constitutional rights.

What odds would you get on Eamonn Ryan or Dana in Paddy Powers?

I think the President would love an election but I think it would not be much of a contest.

I'm sure you'd get great odds on Dana or Ryan, that means fuck all though. I'm pretty confident in saying McAlese will win 7 more years, but let her win them and dont just give them to her.

And I think she said herself she loves an election campaign, how much of a challenge it will be is up to the contestents and the voters as a whole, not you or I.

flogen

Cork

The nonimation process for presidents and the election of senetors are in need of reform.

I think Labour should have let Michael D run. Enda Kenny made up his mind that if Mary McAleese decided to seek a second term - FG would not run a canidate.

But the Labour party position seemed very unclear. Were they to put up a canidate or not? Michael D's name was in the hat for months.

If Eamonn Ryan gets a nomination - It will be good for the Green Party at both national & local level.

flogen

well thats the end of that chapter, anyway....
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0918/president.html

I'd say that puts an end to any chance of an election, which is a shame in many respects.

Good to see you changed your mind and supported a presidential election, cork...

flogen

Cork

Last time out, we had 5 canidates - as of now - we have only one.

Enda Kenny has emerged with credibillity as he has always stated that he would not oppose Mary McAleeses re-election.

The Labour party kept us guessing & now the Green Party will not be running a canidate.

The cost of elections arguement is a red herring. Political partys always financed campaigns. We even had canidates like Derek Nally & Dana financing their own campaigns.

PH01

Wasn't near a computer all weekend so I mist out on all the fun

So the Greens have put a stop to Ryan's run, which is the sensible option. Four weeks isn't an enough time to mount a compaign, and the lack of resources available to the Greens, that would have made Ryan electable.
You'd have to feel sorry for Ryan as I'm not sure if this has damaged his standing in way. Sounds like he's got himself a clip around the ear for the party leaders. We'll soon see how he comes out of this.

sliabh

Cork wrote:

The cost of elections arguement is a red herring. Political partys always financed campaigns. We even had canidates like Derek Nally & Dana financing their own campaigns.

But the greens don't have the resources of the likes of FF, FG or labour. They also had to open their chequebooks earlier this year for local and european elections. And the next general election is only about 18 months away.

So they will have made a tactical political decision, "is it worth spending the money on a contest we are bound to lose, purely to raise the party profile". They have obviously decided that in terms of the next general election (the contest that matters) a presidential run is not value for money.

oscarBravo

bananayoghurt wrote:

I didn't read this thread, just saw quote PRESIDENT unquote and assumed you are all worryin about who shakes hands with visiting sports teams, WHY, who cares, it means NOTHING, ok NOTHING !!!!

Nothing? This is the head of state we're talking about. Don't you think we should have a head of state?