Camp? Is it just exhibitionism?

elivsvonchiaing

OK. None of my friends fall into this category. But I still have to ask the question (I know this may be slightly offensive to many here) but understanding is what I'm after here.

What is the attraction of camp? What drives a gay man here? What age does it start at? Is it just exhibitionism? Is it assumed from birth or developed later?


I've no problem with camp myself -but why is there gay hostility toward camp? Or is this this just the people I hang out with?

Boston

Not being offencive, but I've a hard time telling campness apart from being british. It a thing about environment, if thats the environment you spend your time, it then your going ot be that way. To be camp, isn't the same thing as to be gay though...

claire h

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

What is the attraction of camp? What drives a gay man here? What age does it start at? Is it just exhibitionism? Is it assumed from birth or developed later?

Damn, it's almost like the "are people born gay?" debate.

I think part of it is probably something to do with gender expectations and how sexuality is seen to be tied into gender (the lesbians = butch, gay men = camp school of thought) and it just developed. It does send out certain signals. Straight guys are taught by society how to behave a certain way and the same applies to gay guys, I guess. Not that they all turn out that way, of course - the more your behaviour deviates from "normal" behaviour, the more you realise how much of your behaviour is due to social expectations - but many do.

I think the gay hostility is probably because being camp does fit into the gay stereotype, and almost encourages further generalisations, and because it's complying with the gender/sexuality thing.

ixoy

Claire H. has got it pretty spot on there. From a personal POV I used to dislike "camp" because I felt it was just aiding and abetting stereotypes that I felt I didn't fit into. I knew of some people who were - terrible phrases here btw - "straight acting" who seemed to become camper and camper as time went on. I thought they were trynig to fit into the gay scene, or their perception of it, but you could just as easily say that they had been forced to fit into a perception of a straight community and were now, finally, able to relax and be who they are.

Nowadays, the way I see it is it should never matter once you're being true to yourself. If you're acting in either way, not being true to what you feel like - from tough to camp - then I think it's unfortunate. Otherwise it should be none of people's business.

elivsvonchiaing

Boston wrote:

Not being offencive, but I've a hard time telling campness apart from being british. It a thing about environment, if thats the environment you spend your time, it then your going ot be that way. To be camp, isn't the same thing as to be gay though...

Am inclined to agree with all of this + other posts mentions of stereo-types. I think we are a more a homo-phobic culture here tbh. Hence campness gets beaten out of kids in the school yard whether they are straight or gay.

Of the two most camp men I know - one's straight - one's gay. Neither are Irish (or British in fact (American, Bermudian)).

Stark

I know camp people both straight and gay who are also Irish. I think it gets beaten out of kids early but once kids escape school it re-emerges.

regeneration

I resent the term "exhibitionism" to be honest - it's somehow implying that men acting in a certain fashion outside of the pigeonholed personality types we're allowed (which all fall under the general umbrella term of "gruff, unemotional" types) is somehow not only being shallow, but also false in an attempt to "hog the limelight" as it were. I understand where the ideals of camp came from, social judgement decreed that because homosexuality was being "sissy"(sic), it naturally fitted (from a judgemental point of view) gay men to behave in a way deemed camp. But now that the definitons of sexuality are finally broken down, we still seem determined to keep the definitions of personality shackled to those of gender, so gay men must be outward and camp, straight men introverted.

I found my own school very oppressive and full of "lad" types - I found university a godsend and enlightening; for letting my own personality and behavior around friends flower. I express myself, both in the words I use, and in my body language, and on more than one occassion I've been described as camp as a result, if only because it's a neat pigeonhole to slot me under (first impressions are the staple of interaction). I don't apologise for how I behave in public (and frankly, I'm at ease if I can relax), but I resent the immediate judgemental attitude that either declares me homosexual or a shallow exhibitionist. As an example my last job became uncomfortable simply beause of one or two people who took the same above attitude, and I became a pariah in the work team because people choose to judge me in this fashion. A couple of specific workmates I noticed a complete switch-off in warmth when I felt ok to be myself in work.

As for the "attraction"; there is none. You play your hand as you get, and as a human being I feel most like "me" if I behave in a way - a way that has the side effect of social judgementalism. Welcome to 2004, you might find guys opening up alittle more in this country...

elivsvonchiaing

regeneration wrote:

I resent the term "exhibitionism" to be honest - it's somehow implying that men acting in a certain fashion outside of the pigeonholed personality types we're allowed (which all fall under the general umbrella term of "gruff, unemotional" types) is somehow not only being shallow, but also false in an attempt to "hog the limelight" as it were. I understand where the ideals of camp came from, social judgement decreed that because homosexuality was being "sissy"(sic), it naturally fitted (from a judgemental point of view) gay men to behave in a way deemed camp. But now that the definitons of sexuality are finally broken down, we still seem determined to keep the definitions of personality shackled to those of gender, so gay men must be outward and camp, straight men introverted.

I found my own school very oppressive and full of "lad" types - I found university a godsend and enlightening; for letting my own personality and behavior around friends flower. I express myself, both in the words I use, and in my body language, and on more than one occassion I've been described as camp as a result, if only because it's a neat pigeonhole to slot me under (first impressions are the staple of interaction). I don't apologise for how I behave in public (and frankly, I'm at ease if I can relax), but I resent the immediate judgemental attitude that either declares me homosexual or a shallow exhibitionist. As an example my last job became uncomfortable simply beause of one or two people who took the same above attitude, and I became a pariah in the work team because people choose to judge me in this fashion. A couple of specific workmates I noticed a complete switch-off in warmth when I felt ok to be myself in work.

As for the "attraction"; there is none. You play your hand as you get, and as a human being I feel most like "me" if I behave in a way - a way that has the side effect of social judgementalism. Welcome to 2004, you might find guys opening up alittle more in this country...

I think you have confirmed my previous post about Ireland being more homophobic than the UK.

I have worked both and overseas. It was only here I saw the ugly side of homophobia. The assumption here is that you had encountered the prejudice in Ireland. I'd be really surprised if it was otherwise.

I'm not sure if I would have asked the exhibitionist question if I was still overseas. But here I reckon it's like a red rag to a bull in some circles...

I reckon the problem is in the over 40 age group mainly. I seriously doubt you'd get any hassle from someone in their 20's early 30's. And if you did and they had any peers they would soon shut them up.

The original question posed was based upon a guy I know, a barman - everyone who ever drank there remembers the guy - larger than life - a bit of an exhibitionist imho. Just felt whatever tendencies he was born with he exagerrated to be outrageous so to become absolutelty impossible to ignore. He was well regarded.

In Dublin the guy would have been sacked after a week in the George I reckon. He actually might have lasted longer elsewhere - but would ultimately have been sacked. I fear we do not live in a tolerant city.

Boston

regeneration wrote:

I resent the term "exhibitionism" to be honest - it's somehow implying that men acting in a certain fashion outside of the pigeonholed personality types we're allowed (which all fall under the general umbrella term of "gruff, unemotional" types) is somehow not only being shallow, but also false in an attempt to "hog the limelight" as it were.

I don't follow here. Are you one of those hyper drama queens, made for shoping and calls everyone biatch and tramp?

so gay men must be outward and camp, straight men introverted.

Being camp could be considered just another way of being introverted. If me subcribe to the view point that it's all fake that is. Then you'r just as introverted at the moody drunk in the cornor.

I found my own school very oppressive and full of "lad" types - I found university a godsend and enlightening; for letting my own personality and behavior around friends flower. I express myself, both in the words I use, and in my body language, and on more than one occassion I've been described as camp as a result, if only because it's a neat pigeonhole to slot me under (first impressions are the staple of interaction)

If you're Camp you're camp, its not a pigeon hole. To place in then in a pigeonhole as a result of being camp is something else.

As an example my last job became uncomfortable simply beause of one or two people who took the same above attitude, and I became a pariah in the work team because people choose to judge me in this fashion. A couple of specific workmates I noticed a complete switch-off in warmth when I felt ok to be myself in work.

Maybe they found you annoying, and didn't like being around you. Some people lay the whole thing on abite thick for other peoples liken. It's not going to agree with most people. And someone wrecking your head day in day out isn't good.

As for the "attraction"; there is none. You play your hand as you get, and as a human being I feel most like "me" if I behave in a way - a way that has the side effect of social judgementalism. Welcome to 2004, you might find guys opening up alittle more in this country...

People not liking you for who you are, forget welcome to 2004, welcome to the human race.

damien

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

What is the attraction of camp? What drives a gay man here? What age does it start at? Is it just exhibitionism?

Where's Dr Manhattan when we need him to talk about gender definitions ? People who are less masculine than what the modern world defines as the norm have always been called camp or fag. I think these assumptions as to what way a man is meant to act and be like are finally being broken down. The recent rise of the metrosexual is one of the ways that these gender roles and defintions are being deconstructed.

It is now ok for a guy to take interest in his body and health and grooming. There is less sniggering now when a guy get's his hair coloured and dyed and whatnot. It's perfectly acceptable for a guy to now go on a shopping spree and buy trendy clothes if they want to. This is all good. Be who you want to be, not what society expects of you.

There are naturally camp guys, guys who would be more effeminate than the average male. There's also going to be guys who are more masculine than the average guy. Ones who eat steel for breakfast and sweat testosterone.

I think when some guys discover their sexual identity it allows them to be more free and allows them to be more comfortable with who they are in general. Sometimes that means dropping the facade that they read Loaded magazine and they can now bring the moisturiser from it's hiding place in the back of the drawer. So it can be seen that when some people "come out" they become a bit more camp, whereas it is just their true selves be left out.

Saying that, there are some people who become camp as a way of showing the world they're gay. Outside of the gay bars how do you spot a gay guy ? It's quite tough unless they're abiding by the stereotypes. The guy with the tight white top, screaming voice and hair like a fcking kockatoo is probably gay but what of the others ?

*puts on white scientist coat* What I've seen in my observations of the average gay boy that's looking for love and companionship is that some of them start to dress like the stereotypes. It's a way of advertising the fact you're gay so you hope someone will notice you. Right now in this world it's assumed that guys are all straight everywhere except a gay bar, until that changes you are going to get a percentage of the queers who will feel the need to show off their sexuality more than usual.

I'm not sure is there anything bad about that. Some straight men really push their sexuality by roaring and hollering at footy matches when shown on the TV in the pub. By voiciferously going "phoar" and wolf whistling when some hottie wearing something shorter than a belt walks past them they really are going "I am heterosexual man hear me go 'rar' ". They're allowed to carry on like this, but would be some of the first to complain when a gay guy watching the Eurovision gets all excited about some Swedish band.

but why is there gay hostility toward camp? Or is this this just the people I hang out with?

Probably because those that are hostile don't feel comfortable with the fact that the camp guys are part of the same demographic as them. ( I find it funny that some gay guys who hate going to the George because in their words "is full of fags and queens" are the same passive guys who take dick and scream like a girl with the pleasure from it. )

I think these "hostiles" are just not comfortable with their sexuality yet and have yet to accept that like the general populace is made up of all kinds of everything so is the gay community.

regeneration

Boston wrote:

I don't follow here. Are you one of those hyper drama queens, made for shoping and calls everyone biatch and tramp?

No, not quite. Im probably somewhere in the middle, but Im obviously going to have a biased opinion. If I ever go OTT it would only be in the company of (very) close friends. Letting it all hang out, as it were. But at the very least I know Im more effeminate than most guys

Boston wrote:

Being camp could be considered just another way of being introverted. If me subcribe to the view point that it's all fake that is. Then you'r just as introverted at the moody drunk in the cornor.

Possibly; It's a different kind of shell perhaps, if you deem it pure exhibitionism.

Boston wrote:

If you're Camp you're camp, its not a pigeon hole. To place in then in a pigeonhole as a result of being camp is something else.

If you talk of first impressions, then people's general inclination is to catagorise your personality; and I've noticed from my own personal viewpoint that male flamboyancy tends to get labelled as camp, whether or not it's accurate within in the definition of the word. I have found it to be a big dumping ground of (mostly male) personality types ... I think because males are only beginning to "out" themselves emotionally, they are incapable of dealing with and defining this new type of male *shrug*

Boston wrote:

Maybe they found you annoying, and didn't like being around you. Some people lay the whole thing on abite thick for other peoples liken. It's not going to agree with most people. And someone wrecking your head day in day out isn't good.

No, Im not an annoying person (ergh, hate self-inflation almost as much as self-depreciation); I mean there was one guy who fancied himself as the office comic (and that pubic jokes never went out of fashion), he was loud and as you say, would lay it on a bit thick; but I did notice a definite change in atmosphere when i settled into a more casual, personality, true to myself while respecting people's attitudes; just didn't expect some people to completely switch off. Very much a "had to be there" scenario.

Victor

damien.m wrote:

Some straight men really push their sexuality by roaring and hollering at footy matches when shown on the TV in the pub. By voiciferously going "phoar" and wolf whistling when some hottie wearing something shorter than a belt walks past them they really are going "I am heterosexual man hear me go 'rar' ". They're allowed to carry on like this, but would be some of the first to complain when a gay guy watching the Eurovision gets all excited about some Swedish band.

While jocks / lads tend to be the most guilty of this behavior, they are by no means alone.

Meandering story. I was at a cousin's funeral, its now, five years ago. One of the guys there was having a go at my "adopted" Dub accent (I'm originally from Cork, but never really had a Cork bai accent). So my aunt explains to him who I was and vice versa. His daughter was in school with my sister. I was able to say how his daughter tried to snog me when she was 15, which made him blanch - she's now married with 4 kids (I didn't let on I was about 6 at the time). Any theres a bunch of my sister's friends doing their make-up and lipstick when his daughter lands a big lipsticky set of lips on my cheek, leaving a very definite mark. Cue much laughter from the 'cool' girls and an embarrassed 6 year old. Lots of girls don't grow out of this. My sisters friends are now at the 40 mark and still behave outragiously.

So you have a bunch of teenage girls showing off their girlyness to a 6 year old and getting their kicks from it. Which is inappropriate. As are the people in workplaces showing off their sexuality - flaunting of boobs, etc. Fun. Interesting. Arousing. Inappropriate.

Now getting back to the specificness of being camp, as I said on the other thread excessive or contrived campness "in public" can be inappropriate.

And I would dispute camp = effeminate. Some similar connotations, but they are not equal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=camp

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=effeminate

Boston

I get it just depends if I believe someone is being themselves or if I think their being in your face, and dancing about on my head. All gay TV personallities do my head in. Especially that new one on corniation street. But anyway, Victor your wrong.