PR?

civdef

entropy wrote:

On the same note did anyone see the ad on the back of the shooting digest? Guys we gotta get some sense here before we loose the plot!

Didn't see it, curious now though, anyone able to enlighten me?

entropy

civdef wrote:

Didn't see it, curious now though, anyone able to enlighten me?

An ad with a leather clad sexy woman model clutching a silvered pistol with a caption saying "The wasted years 1972 - 2004"

Last time I saw something like that was on an american gun nut magazine .... only it was an uzi machine gun she was holding .....

Makes gun owners look like a bunch of redneck dudes more interested in the sex appeal of having a pistol than for any sporting purposes ... great for posing around the nightclub bar ....

civdef

Brilliant, who published it?

Sounds like a CZ advert, so one of their distributors?

entropy

civdef wrote:

Brilliant, who published it?

Sounds like a CZ advert, so one of their distributors?

Ardee Sports ......

Sparks

Saw that when I picked up the Digest this month. Well, to be more honest, I saw it as I paid for it at the counter and then scared the poor lad behind the till with an, erm, honest expression of my evaulation of the effect of the advert in question...

Let's just say I'm not impressed. I mean, even if it had been an olympic target pistol, that would have been something. But no, it had to be a CZ 75, it couldn't even have been a Kadet...
*shakes head*

Do people not realise that the Gardai read this magazine as a cheap way to "keep an eye on things"? Do they not get the fact that right now is one of the most politically sensitive times in over three decades as far as firearms legislation is concerned? There are amendments to the firearms acts coming other than the secure storage one; the Department of Justice has confirmed that (though we don't know any details yet past the level of rumour). We know that importation orders for pistols are effectively not being granted. And we know that the Barr Tribunal has been throwing up lots of nasty things, like qualified psychologists testifying that one-tenth of all firearms owners are likely to be mentally unhealthy; and recommending that doctors break doctor-patient confidentiality if the patient is a firearms owner and gives any impression of anything other than a rosy picture of mental health.

This is not the time to be trying to head down the IPSC path, if indeed there ever would be such a time!

civdef

That said, CZ do produce exceedingly good advertisements Their calendars used to be one of the more popular gun trade freebies.

Their website used to have similar, but seems to have gone all PC now...

taken from www.archive.org's cache of www.czub.cz in 1999:

Sparks

The ad in question, snipped of the company's contact details to "de-ad" it for boards.ie rules...

entropy

Nice photos all round but these types of ads will only give ammo to the anti-gun lobby. Lets face it using ads like this is not going to do us any favours and will be picked up eventually and used to show that we want these pistols and guns for image rather than sport!

civdef

Do we have an anti-gun lobby?

I know we have a very active, but small, and so far unsuccessful anti-bloodsports lobby, but I've seen no sign so far of any group out to get rid of guns. That's not to say there aren't plenty of civil servants who seem to make it their life's work for whatever reason.

The biggest risk I see is of an opposition politician taking the chance for some free air-time with both hands.

Sparks

We don't have an anti-gun lobby as such because up to now, guns weren't in the public eye and no pistols were in circulation except up North and in the hands of criminals. However, that has meant that all firearms are now seen as being suspect by the majority of the uneducated-about-firearms public.

So, while IANSA has been launched here, it's never had anything to sink it's teeth into really, up till now.

The politician (opposition or not) who hears of anyone going near combat pistol shooting though - that's the real worry.

Irishglockfan

Damn...i'll have to hide my copy of Rock&Roll sexy girls and sexy guns..
As well as my old Eley shotgun ammo poster.

One thing. Can we lay off calling things we dont like in the shooting world with derogratory terms.Like american gun nut magazine??YOU are classified as a "gun nut"by the great unwashed and uninformed anyway.
Doesnt matter if you are clean shaven bedecked in gold medallions or a cammo wearing pistol packin rambo.The antis will brush you with the same brush.Remember your enemy has a single issue to take your guns in any shape or form.If you dont like the disipline dont particapate in it.Dont like that type of gun dont buy it.Dont like the mag dont buy it.But for heavens sake dont go around bad mouthing it and giving the antis a toe hold. What you might not like there are proably a good many others that do like it.Who are you to judge???
"ahh you see even the shooting body doesnt like this type of disipline, gun acessory.So there is no reason for anyone to own/practise it".And the rot sets in.

Dunblane, the pistol shooters got it."we will give up the large calibre handguns,as they really are just a bunch of rambos and wannabes running the practial pistol and target shooting." the large calibre pistol boys were hung out to dry.The 22target pistols survived ONE MONTH before they were gone as well.APPEASEMENT NEVER WORKS.They had one issue, ban all handguns in the UK.The various organisations were throwing each other to the wolves to survive.Which they didnt in the end.

Especially on a open forum which you can be damn sure they might read.I know that ICABS reads Irish Shooters Digest regulary.

This is my whole point we must hang together or we will assuredly hang indivdually.[Ben Franklin]

Sparks

Glock, all this talk about hanging together lest we hang seperately is of very little comfort when there are nooses around all our necks already and some of us are jumping up and down on that trapdoor as hard as they can....

Irishglockfan

Well,it's is even less comforting to hear one of the condemmed say "Dont hang me. I am not as bad as the others,and I'll tell and do for you anything to save myself.Oh for the jumping on the trap door..hang on ,I can tell you where it is sticking under the other lads."
Yes we all are in the situation you describe.However we do ourselves no favours of being on the gallows and starting a "He is worse than me so he should be hung first" arguement.We all are guilty otherwise we wouldnt be on a gallows.Rather how do we all get off this thing.

Sparks

Glock, if you have a realistic idea about how to get the politicians to allow us to have any kind of firearm we want, an idea that actually has a chance of working, then sing out now.

Otherwise, the best course of action remains securing as much as we can, rather than demanding everything. Remember please, WE DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, and everything in this sport is affected as a direct result, including how we defend the sport's interests.

I can tell you right now, if we walked into McDowell's office and demanded that he not amend the Firearms Acts, when his press briefing already said he would, we wouldn't get anywhere. He's committed publicly to amending the Acts, and if you think he'd lose face backing off on that at the behest of a tiny minority who cannot offer him "compensation" for doing so, you must have missed the last few years of politics in Ireland!

Make no mistake Glock, the axe is falling - our actions now are pretty much limited to influencing where it falls, not if it falls.

Irishglockfan

And the previous post has got what to do exactly with my suggestion that we stop calling each other gun nuts, and worry about very fetching ladies holding various different types of firearms????????
CZ BRNO has been advertising like this since pre glasnost eighties. It obvisouly must work. I think we have more to worry about than pics of some girls holding guns.Or as to whom reads the shooting mag.Do you think Handgun control doesnt subscribe to the NRA national rifleman and vise versa?Told you ICABS is reading the gun mag.Do any of us subscribe to animal watch?Or are a member of ICABS??Everyone who puts out a information booklet or mag in any shape or form in busisness/politics whatever knows their competition will read it.We should be reading up on the Garda Review,and whatever passes for an inhouse political party mag in Ireland.
Ok here is a workable plan if anyone is intrested.

UNITE all the shooting bodies of Ireland under an umbrella organisation[leaving them the autonomy to run all their disiplines seperatly of course]

ACCEPT that there are going to have to be some cheifs and alot of indians.This of course is not going to go down well with many egos ,primma donnas and mini kingdom builders.But that is to be expected with any human endevour.

Let me simplify this as much as possible.we all have one thing in common.We all own GUNS.There are people out there who dont want us to have any.Therefore it does not matter WHAT type,calibre,make etc,or how or where we shoot them.To those who dont want us to have them ALL GUNS ARE BAD!!!!! THEREFORE we require NOT to be alienating people whom we might not like,have issues with as to what type of shooting they do,what type of gun they have,what type of clothes they wear at shooting ranges,what pictures they look at etc.In the end they are required as they are voices,votes and fellow GUNowners.

EMPLOY the best for the job of cheifs.I dont mean by how nice a fellow is,what his shooting score is or whatever.I mean by his professional ability to do things he is employed to do.A PR man who is a shooter ,and has a proper PR backround and works in a PR company,not somone who is elected to the job,because no one else wanted it.

FINANCE this organisation properly.In this day and age everyone of us should be able to cough up 200 euros plus per annum to support our shooting.If you cant,well you deserve to lose it.

ORGANISE the manpower you now have to be able to respond from doing letter writing campains to counter the antis,to if need be a demo in any major city.It requires dedication and time and most unpleasently money from EVERYONE of us.and if you are not going to put in the effort of writing one letter to the editor in response to an anti gun/hunter letter you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.we can no longer afford "dignified silences" or an "ah sure nothin will happen, or come out of it " attitude
Organise that if anyone wants to launch a legal challenge there is financial backing ,[up to a point,]legal assistance that is gun law savvy to help them.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
Know EVERYTHING about the current /future minister of Justice.From the moment he was born to what he had for breakfast today.Know everything about which politico is pro or anti the gun /hunting issue. Know what the gun statistics are here in crime.Actually I am AMAZED that no one has even thought of doing this in ANY of the Irish shooting organisations.That is a job that would be up to the leaders!!!!! Know who the anti crowd are here and who their allies are and who would finance them from outside Ireland or the UK.
Example ;hands up all those who know the names or how many of the anti hunting crowd were at a anti hunting/sab training camp in kent Uk from 3/5 Sept.I do and it wasnt too hard to find out.
So? Supposing one day one of these people become Min of justice?wouldnt somthing like that be a good bargining chip it it was leaked to some hopefully pro gun journalist who can pass it to a pro gun editor?

HAVE A PLAN B
Sparks ,you have said enough times that everyone went in with all o r nothing attitude into negoations with various Min of Js. Did anyone have a Plan B?Did anyone say"Ok if you wont give us all,what will you give us?"[to which the answer was more like" sweet FA"].Our big trouble as I see it are ;
we are always dealing on a weak hand and [2] we seem to have bad negoiators who have their own hidden agendas.
To deal with point one.Never let the other guy know your hand.
Pt two.Anyone we send in there must be a skilled negoiatior with one agenda.

The only thing any politican respects is force! Force in him losing his position,votes ,or public standing[remarkably not too much of a concern IMHO with irish politicans]force of law.If mc dowell or whomever thought there were more votes in changing the amendments or ignoring them [as usual] he would do so.Anyway we should know ,or have some sort of idea what is proposed in any further amendments. [BTWHas anyone even got the courtsey of a response from the DOJ for their comments submitted on the ammendments???Even an autoreply?]Or are they going to hold that like another Damoclean sword over us?
Again we should have a plan B to cover us if things go against us.Organised amongst the shooting groups.

This can all be done.BUT it takes time,money,effort and willpower of all of us to do so.
I cant see it working for the very simple reason it is almost an impossible Irish trait to organise effectively to do somthing of mutual benefit for each other.
No one wants to bell the damn cat,and when it comes to it being somwhat sucessful watch us all jump on the bandwagon,and jump off it just as quick if anything goes slightly wrong.Along with a good dose of me feinism,egos etc.Our history proves that.
So yeah ..fine take whatever is offered,which wont be much.Because it will be snatched back just as quick as soon as aanti gun minority even smaller than the irish shooting community starts squawking about handguns or rifles being in the hands of trained killers etc,and a gutless MOJ bowing"to public pressure".Orders them all back in for another "two weeks",while the shooting organisations are at each others throats While bewailing the another lost oppturunity.
Meantime with the subversives and criminals it will be busisness as usual.Guess we just dont learn.

Sparks

And the previous post has got what to do exactly with my suggestion that we stop calling each other gun nuts, and worry about very fetching ladies holding various different types of firearms????????

Nothing, it was instead to do with the "hang together" comments.

I think we have more to worry about than <snip> whom reads the shooting mag.

You mean that the fact that the Gardai and DoJ read the Digest shouldn't influence how we describe them in the Digest or how we write in it?

We should be reading up on the Garda Review,and whatever passes for an inhouse political party mag in Ireland.

Some of us have been doing so for years.

UNITE all the shooting bodies of Ireland under an umbrella organisation

Won't work right now. Been tried. I could regale you for some time with tales of wrongdoing just on the rifle side of the house when it comes to umbrella bodies, but it wouldn't contribute more to the discussion than the simple fact that umbrella bodies only make things more convienent for the Sports Council - they do not automatically encourage more efficency for those actually in the bodies, and frankly, have done more ill than good to date.

ACCEPT that there are going to have to be some cheifs and alot of indians.

Ah, but who gets to be chief? And what if Chief doens't like the idea of IPSC, or something else you personally want to see? Will you remain a happy Indian then?

Let me simplify this as much as possible.we all have one thing in common.We all own GUNS.

And the GAA, IRFU and FAI all play team sports on a pitch with a ball and with broadly similar rules. I don't see them being encouraged to form an umbrella body, nor can I see them all banding together for the benefit of team sports that use a ball on a pitch...

To those who dont want us to have them ALL GUNS ARE BAD!!!!! THEREFORE we require NOT to be alienating people whom we might not like,have issues with as to what type of shooting they do,what type of gun they have,what type of clothes they wear at shooting ranges,what pictures they look at etc.In the end they are required as they are voices,votes and fellow GUNowners.

Horse hockey.
I've got nothing in common with gunowners like Hamilton or Ryan or McCarthy, and have no intention of ever encouraging anyone to think so. The simple fact is that there are people out there with firearms who shouldn't have them. Deny it at your own peril - because the "other side" you keep alluding to will know this and will use it against you and then what will you do?

EMPLOY the best for the job of cheifs.

I've been recommending the hiring of a PR firm for our PR for three straight years. Trouble is, hiring means giving money for services - and we don't have the money.

FINANCE this organisation properly.In this day and age everyone of us should be able to cough up 200 euros plus per annum to support our shooting.If you cant,well you deserve to lose it.

I thought we were all gunowners - not just the ones who had 200 euro to give? And are you including the college students (all 800 or so of them between DURC and UCDRC), the juniors and the OAPs in with the "must give 200 euro" bunch?

Besides which, I've been trying to get advertising to pay for the NTSA newsletter for years. I'm not talking about trying to get a donation to charity here - I'm talking about selling colour adverts to gun dealers in a newsletter that goes to almost a hundred individual target shooters and fifteen clubs (meaning many more individuals), all of whom spend money buying equipment and supplies for target shooting. Logically, it's quite a deal - but I've managed to get precisely three people to agree to buy advertising in the newsletter in three years, only one of whom is still doing so - the rest comes out of my pocket. Reaching for the wallet is something Irish shooters seem to do slowly Now I don't mind paying for it myself so much, but it's hardly a stable way to do things - what if I get hit by a Luas tomorrow?

On top of that, paying less than a quarter of what you're talking about for membership of shooting associations is begrudged by shooters - as the other threads in this forum are showing. So what you're talking about is highly unlikely. Plus, you've given no budget - so what's that money going to be spent on?

ORGANISE the manpower you now have to be able to respond from doing letter writing campains to counter the antis,to if need be a demo in any major city.

The last letter-writing campaign was to the Tribune - and it backfired because instead of a deluge of polite letters pointing out that they'd gotten an article wrong, they got a torrent of abusive messages and rants and stopped listening to anyone in the shooting associations.

The current one is to the DoJ regarding the Firearms Acts. Is your letter in yet? And why not post it in the thread sticky in this forum if it is?

As to demos, well, the USAF is still using Shannon, isn't it?

Organise that if anyone wants to launch a legal challenge there is financial backing ,[up to a point,]legal assistance that is gun law savvy to help them.

That would be FLAG you're talking about, the Firearms Legislation Action Group. When it was started, I was one of the first to put hand in pocket, even though I had damn little money (being a student) to do so with. And now, several years later, I've never received any information from FLAG regarding their status or activities that I didn't get from the papers or from emails sent to an email list I'm not on, despite repeated requests to the man running FLAG for information and repeated requests to add me to that list. And for those years, they've been trying to beat the DoJ and the Gardai over the head using the Firearms Acts and the High and Supreme Courts. Which, in this country, is like picking a fight with a building.

Three guesses as to my opinion of them?

KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

Enough with the hobbsian outlook! We don't have an enemy worth worrying about in the sense you're thinking of. The ICaBS aren't a real threat, they don't have enough clout. The GCN don't exist here. IANSA isn't even looking at us, they have only at the most a token presence here.

The thing we have to fight, is the poor level of knowlege of target shooting in the DoJ and Gardai - and you don't do that by antagonistic or confrontational methods. The simple fact is that your "enemy" is a civil servant who doesn't shoot, has little idea of target shooting, has little training in firearms, but does have his or her ass on the line whenever firearms stuff comes up, because their nightmare is a Dunblane or Abbylara that happened because of a law they had a hand in - so they continually play it safe. And until you're paying their morgage and putting food on their table so they don't have to worry about losing their jobs, you don't have a right to criticise them for that. What you can do is show them that we're Safe and Harmless and that we don't need much from them to let us go off and win medals for Ireland.

Know EVERYTHING about the current /future minister of Justice.From the moment he was born to what he had for breakfast today.

While I get the birthday thing, I don't see why we should put a telescope in his window - at best, it'd be useless info, at worst, it'd get you arrested!
I'm amused you think we don't know a fair amount about him though - mind you, since we mostly get to deal with Willie O'Dea instead of McDowell, I think you're looking at the wrong person...

Know everything about which politico is pro or anti the gun /hunting issue. Know what the gun statistics are here in crime.Actually I am AMAZED that no one has even thought of doing this in ANY of the Irish shooting organisations.

Stop being amazed, they have been doing this for a while. Just because we haven't sent in an FOI request from the NTSA doesn't mean we've not been following everything they print!

Supposing one day one of these people become Min of justice?wouldnt somthing like that be a good bargining chip it it was leaked to some hopefully pro gun journalist who can pass it to a pro gun editor?

So your plan is to monitor a bunch of yahoos who have no realistic chance of becoming Ministers, in order to blackmail them if they do?

Sparks ,you have said enough times that everyone went in with all o r nothing attitude into negoations with various Min of Js. Did anyone have a Plan B?

So far as I know, no. But that doesn't mean that there definitely wasn't one, just that I wasn't privy to it.

To deal with point one.Never let the other guy know your hand.

This isn't poker. The DoJ and Gardai have more information on our "hand" than we do... and they get to rewrite the rules if they want.
This is more like Jenga than poker - the object is to get what you want with a minimum of disturbance.

Pt two.Anyone we send in there must be a skilled negoiatior with one agenda.

Apart from the fact that skilled negotiatiors don't grow on trees, there's the fact that to ensure the "one agenda" bit, you'd need a contract!

Sparks

The only thing any politican respects is force!

Horse hockey.
What are you suggesting, that we threaten them? Yes, that'll work - if you happen to be trying to get rid of firearms in Ireland!

If mc dowell or whomever thought there were more votes in changing the amendments or ignoring them [as usual] he would do so.

As I've said, politicians watch voter demographics and surveys like we watch the wind during a shooting competition. And the thing is, McDowell knows there are votes in amending the acts so they appear to be very strict (which the 3.8 million non-shooters in Ireland see as being good and safe). The trick is to show him that he can do that and let us keep what we want and not have to do much work and stay clear of much risk.

Anyway we should know ,or have some sort of idea what is proposed in any further amendments.

Trying to find out now. Have been for some weeks.

BTWHas anyone even got the courtsey of a response from the DOJ for their comments submitted on the ammendments???Even an autoreply?

Well, I know I haven't, not yet. I'm sending mine in tomorrow as a letter as well as an email, just to be sure. Registered mail isn't that expensive (about the same as a good cup of coffee in Dublin).

Did you send yours in yet? Will you add the text to the sticky thread in this forum for everyone to see?

Again we should have a plan B to cover us if things go against us.Organised amongst the shooting groups.

The shooting groups rarely even talk to one another - the ICPSA and NTSA seem to be an exception rather than a rule, and even there the communication is still far less than I'd like - so the idea of an organised political fallback position is a bit unlikely!

I cant see it working for the very simple reason it is almost an impossible Irish trait to organise effectively to do somthing of mutual benefit for each other.

Exactly.

when it comes to it being somwhat sucessful watch us all jump on the bandwagon,and jump off it just as quick if anything goes slightly wrong.

And there's the solution. Do it on your own at first, do it right, and don't stop doing it right.

Because it will be snatched back just as quick as soon as aanti gun minority even smaller than the irish shooting community starts squawking about handguns or rifles being in the hands of trained killers etc,and a gutless MOJ bowing"to public pressure".Orders them all back in for another "two weeks",while the shooting organisations are at each others throats While bewailing the another lost oppturunity.

Now you see why I said earlier that an IPSC/PPC/1500/IDPA match would ensure that target shooting in Ireland died a quick death!

Sparks

For anyone wondering how sensitive the whole thing is, take a peek at this example from the UK. Some of you may have seen the advert for the Landrover Freelander where the wife takes a starter pistol from a drawer and fires it as the husband heads off to work. A total of 348 people (out of the 50-odd million in the UK, a total of approximately .00696%) complained to OFCOM. They banned the advert as a result. Now advertising campaigns are serious money, and this was a UK company (one of their most famous in fact) putting in the advert - so you can imagine therefore, that this was not a trivial incident!

Irishglockfan

Yes did send in a reply to the quiery via email three weeks ago.Still no reply and quite frankly i dont expect to hear one. As i think it is being treated with the usual DOJ contempt.But if there enough to be overwhelming I think it will be listend to.Will post it if it hasnt been deleted from the mail files

No i am not suggesting them we threaten them ,in a forceful way rather be able to have information on them and their policies that could be useful.

How the gardai /DOJ read themselves in the gun mags is really immaterial.so long as it is not libelous.

If the umbrella body decides ISPCC is out.Ok I'll go with a majority decision.But no doubt the first thing on the agenda will be the split anyway. As to the point of the GAA talking to the IRFU.HahahaMight as well be trying to get pro and anti gun groups to find common ground.as well as that can you see millionaries who play soccer wanting to to anything with the rugger huggers.All those organisations are better funded than we ever will be.An arguement as different as chalk and cheese!

Wether you like it or not you are classified as a gun nut ,as we all are on the same line as Hamilton or Ryan and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING we can do to to change this propaganda if it is disseminated.The sheeple out there will go with what they are told by the scum media.They cannot discern between the clean cut image or the bad image of shooting,nor will they be helped to do so either.Hence the reason for the planned PR.Yes there are many people out there who shouldnt have leathl weapons.like 50% of the irish motoring public INMHO.

As for paying.YES all of us.Inc old age pensioners and students[especially.200 euros a good weekend pissup.]Ok seeing that you are one,I am sure there could be different rates. As you pointed out we havent got the money,or more likely dont want to part with it.But we have to and must.If you get hit by LUAS and survive,you are sorted on the compo .going by it's latest disaster this weekend. As to how it is spent,jeeze do you want a whole plan down to the last detail??? My whole post is a general concept!



Letter writing,well did anyone put up any guidelines?Or is it just assumed that we will all know how to write letters?Did anyone put up a sample letter?
[ICABS does that ].Of course it wont work if no one plans or controls it.

As for your newsletter.How did you plan it?a glossy mag or just a couple of A4s stapled together for example.why not do the newsletter for free and charge for the advertising?but do all types of fieldsports equipment?Or better still have you considerd doing a buy&sell sector for guns&related on this webpage.Somthing i think has more future than paper mags.
Demos in Shannon.
Are you saying we are a bunch of hairy leftist peaceniks from Dublin 4?
The hairies are about as welcome here in Shannon as aids in a moanestry.
Reason Shannon is just about surviving without uncle sam coming in here Shannon would be dead.Working there I know this.But anyway we digress,save to say that they get plenty of publicity and will keep to do so because they are a PC issue,we are un PC and have a hell lot of catching up to do.Dont expect to get anywhere without proper PR work.Learn from them,they are pretty aufe on how publicity works and how to use it.

You would be a total fool to underestimate what is already here in Ireland and is growing.ICABS has got some pretty serious people in the politics section.Ok they are red /green,but it is at the future I am looking at.Have a read of some of their articles and you would be quite amzed at their anti gun /shooting mindset.I caught two of them out on this in a debate here in limerick once.They claimed that ICABS was not anti shooting.I quoted one of their articles from their mags.Remarkable how quickly that subject was dropped.
I agree it is a burrocrat who will block and cause the problems,however ever hear of one being fired or resign because of incompetance or a screw up in Ireland?? I haven't .if that was the norm 2/3of the irish Govt would not exist.On the contrary it seems to be a badge of honour to stay on no matter what.As for critizeing them remember they are there for US not vise versa,despite what they may think!We are paying thru our taxes for their pensions,roofs and food,and in some cases we elected them to that job.Therefore we are entitled to efficency,courtesy and a modicum of service.If they were working in the private sector most of them would be sacked for ineffiency!!this is not just me this is from a good few of the irish top 100 busisness people.If your job is to take names and numbers and issue firearms certs,your personal opinions are not supposed to come into the matter.If the applicant has satisified the law and is requesting an item that he is entitled to under law.NOWHERE ELSE in the World could you introduce a "policy" to block a lawful and ligit request,but here it seems to be a badge of honour.As for antagnoism the only people who are ,are the gaurds and DOJ.Maybe it is just me,but I was under the misapprenhension that if i fulfilled the requirements of the law ,I was entitled to certain things and services in return and within a reasonable time frame.

Information,
depends how it is used and yes 80% of your life can be found by ligit means.I should know I do it for a living.Want to talk to O Dea mano a mano? I can arrange it,he owes me a favour.Since he was architet in parts of the 1992 firearms amendment I really must ask him about the sound modifier and nite sight issues.Seems a bit naive on gun issues.
No ,my plan is not to blackmail anyone.Just have information who might be stuffing brown paper envelopes into their pockets,and what people they associate with.
I wouldnt describe any of them as yahoos.Least of all people who are more determined and ruthless than us it seems.Or the people who control them.Better to overestimate your opposition than underestimate it.
Errr yahoos who have no chance of becoming ministers.....See the German parliment.All of the Red/green party now in power were all classified as "yahoos" there 10/15 years ago.Dont think just because "we" cant/wont think European,that "they" are in the same predicament.

Skilled negotionars can be got if people want to pay for them.[not going to happen]As for the contract,this would lie back to the having a proper unified policy on what we want. [not going to happen]

FLAG
I dont know whats going on there either .The last PR I got from them was 2002.

Doing things yourself
Highly laudable except it can be seen as me feinism[my theory on what happened with the rifle issue in 94?]
i still hold that if somthing bad does happen here.We will lose ALL of the handguns,and large calibre stuff..and it will be irrespective of what kind of safe and harmless disipline you are involved in it will go. all we can do is try and weed out the bad apples[an impossible task INMO] in any disipline.

On a intresting note,it seems the hanguns lic requirement sofar is club membership and secure storage.Seems agreeable enough.until we hear what secure storage will comprise,and what or where the clubs will be defined as.

Sparks

Since he was architet in parts of the 1992 firearms amendment I really must ask him about the sound modifier and nite sight issues.Seems a bit naive on gun issues.

Well, I've never seen him down the range, so it wouldn't surprise me. Mostly these people have as much experience in firearms as we do in law...

No ,my plan is not to blackmail anyone.Just have information who might be stuffing brown paper envelopes into their pockets,and what people they associate with.

And what else would you do with that information?!?!?!

I wouldnt describe any of them as yahoos.

I wouldn't describe all of them that way - but a portion of them most assuredly are, as are a portion of us!

Skilled negotionars can be got if people want to pay for them.[not going to happen]As for the contract,this would lie back to the having a proper unified policy on what we want. [not going to happen]

Yup.

FLAG
I dont know whats going on there either .The last PR I got from them was 2002.

That's more than I got, and I'm on the NTSA committee and have been deputised into the NRPAI committee on occasion - and FLAG is a part of the NRPAI!

Highly laudable except it can be seen as me feinism[my theory on what happened with the rifle issue in 94?]

Yes, but the thing is that nothing suceeds like success. Get a shooting organisation to stop mucking about and actually get down to the business of promoting shooting and investing in the sport and pushing coaching and so on, and you'll find it's popularity will eventually rise.
Do that long enough, and eventually you'll find the snowball effect kicks in.

i still hold that if somthing bad does happen here.We will lose ALL of the handguns,and large calibre stuff..and it will be irrespective of what kind of safe and harmless disipline you are involved in it will go. all we can do is try and weed out the bad apples[an impossible task INMO] in any disipline.

Indeed. And of course, in that situation, we'll find we have no PR company to do crisis management, no lobbying plan to work by, and while we're caught on the hop, other, less contemplative people will try their hand at defending shooting - and the anti-gun groups will be watching for them because they are the real weakness in such situations. Not because they have bad intentions or even because of incompetence, but because they don't have the support mechanisms, the research, or the planning done for such an exercise and it becomes fish-in-a-barrel time...

On a intresting note,it seems the hanguns lic requirement sofar is club membership and secure storage.Seems agreeable enough.until we hear what secure storage will comprise,and what or where the clubs will be defined as.

Well, the secure storage requirement is down to the local superintendent according to the amendment, and there's no definition of what a club comprises.

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

Yes did send in a reply to the quiery via email three weeks ago.

Firstly, well done. Few enough seem to have done so.

How the gardai /DOJ read themselves in the gun mags is really immaterial.so long as it is not libelous.

True - right up to the point where you have to go to them and ask for something (a new licence, more ammo on your licence, whatever) - and then there's the bad feeling that being referred to continually as "the enemy" generates, causing unnecessary friction and hassle.

If the umbrella body decides ISPCC is out.Ok I'll go with a majority decision.

See, maybe you might - but more wouldn't.

An arguement as different as chalk and cheese!

Not really. The main reason the FAI, IRFU and GAA wouldn't come together is the loss of autonomy it would mean, not the money involved. Likewise with the shooting associations. If you just say "right lads, we need to all come together", the response is always "why?" - and for a good reason. It takes work to amalgamate - so if you want to do it, you have to have a very good cost-benefit analysis done that shows significant advantages to doing it. And right now, we couldn't do that - the NTSA and ISPCA would have to give up their ISSF affiliation and ISSF vote, and would have to take on the PR liability of the non-olympic sports (and though it sounds nasty to say it, the non-olympic sports just don't have as much positive PR as the olympic ones do, that's the cold unjust truth of it). The NSAI wouldn't do it (for personal reasons as much as anything else I suspect), and can't speak as to the NASRC, but the Pony Club tetrathlon people wouldn't go near the idea because they're pony club first - and therefore already in an umbrella body, Equestrian Ireland.
And the disciplines are too different - there's some carry-over from one to the other, but not much - Nick Flood couldn't dominate Air Rifle, for example, and I'm sure I'd be crap at Silhouette. It is chalk and cheese - just not the way you meant!

Wether you like it or not you are classified as a gun nut

Indeed - but I can, and have, been able to moderate that, at least on an individual level. Of course individuals are the ones who write media articles and make decisions...
Look, right now you pick Joe Bloggs on grafton st. and ask him what's his first thought when you ask him to think of shooting. It'll be one of the following five: IRA/UDF, Armed Robber, Army/ERU, Hunter, Nutter.
The job I've been trying to do (but which Derek Burnett's performance did more for than anything I've done) was to add a sixth category - sportsperson. Now you can't do that if you don't give not only the reality of being Safe and Harmless, but also the appearance thereof.
And that means not tieing yourself to anyone who picks up a gun, but only those who do so responsibly.

The sheeple out there will go with what they are told by the scum media.

You know, some of those "scum" are actually good people who I'd consider friends.

They cannot discern between the clean cut image or the bad image of shooting,nor will they be helped to do so either.

Wrong on both counts. See here.

As for paying.YES all of us.Inc old age pensioners and students[especially.200 euros a good weekend pissup.]

Are you nuts? 200 euro might be something I can get together, but a 19-year-old student? I don't know what your weekend pissups were like, but mine were counted on the sixth fingers of each hand as a student. And while people continually complain about students going out and partying all the time, they rarely see the reality - a fiver being a night out, and nursing pints on that night out, and eating pretty poorly as a result of going out and a host of other things that belie the image of a carefree bohemian existance!
As to OAPs, I'll wait till you try living on a pension
Look, right now the NTSA and IPSCA have difficulty in getting people to pay a tenth of what you're talking about, and they know what they're getting for that. Trying to get shooters to cough up the equivalent of 2000 rounds of decent ammo without a public budget breakdown? Not going to happen!

weekend. As to how it is spent,jeeze do you want a whole plan down to the last detail??? My whole post is a general concept!

I wouldn't pay 200 euro to anyone without knowing what it was for!
And you might not need to give it down to the nearest penny - but you damn well do have to down to the nearest 200 euro!

Letter writing,well did anyone put up any guidelines?Or is it just assumed that we will all know how to write letters?Did anyone put up a sample letter?

Nope, yes and nope.

[ICABS does that ].Of course it wont work if no one plans or controls it.

*politely points to the thread sticky in this forum and the headline on the NTSA website*

As for your newsletter.How did you plan it?a glossy mag or just a couple of A4s stapled together for example.

It's a glossy mag. Here's last months one.

why not do the newsletter for free and charge for the advertising?

That's what we're doing right now. But unless people buy advertising, it doesn't really work.

Or better still have you considerd doing a buy&sell sector for guns&related on this webpage.

Myself and civ discussed it but the decision was that rather than people posting their home addresses and what kind of firearm they had there (hello Mr. Burglar!), we'd let them advertise here but conduct the sale through registered firearms dealers (which is a standard kind of practise).

Somthing i think has more future than paper mags.

Yes and no - I mean, the website has more in it than the newsletter ever will, and it's checked more often - but not all shooters have internet access (yes, even today); not all shooters are computer-literate; and paper newsletters like ours, sent to media people and DoJ people and Sports Council and Oiympic Council people, are still quite effective.

Are you saying we are a bunch of hairy leftist peaceniks from Dublin 4?

No, I'm saying that the largest civil protests in the nation's history did nothing to change the policy they were opposing.
So what good would it do us?
Look at the Hunt lobby in the UK right now to see what the outcome would be!

You would be a total fool to underestimate what is already here in Ireland and is growing.ICABS has got some pretty serious people in the politics section.Ok they are red /green,but it is at the future I am looking at.

ICaBS is still small though. And right now they're more aimed at hunting with dogs and cruelty against animals than at target shooters of any kind. They did take a sideswipe against us, and were rebutted.

They claimed that ICABS was not anti shooting.I quoted one of their articles from their mags.Remarkable how quickly that subject was dropped.

Oh, they've no love for us, that's true. Thing is, they're not looking at us right now - and right now we have other battles we need to fight!

I agree it is a burrocrat who will block and cause the problems,however ever hear of one being fired or resign because of incompetance or a screw up in Ireland??

Nope, but that's because they don't stick their neck out - there's never just one civil servant who causes the problem, is there?

We are paying thru our taxes for their pensions,roofs and food,and in some cases we elected them to that job.

You're paying their morgage only as long as they hold the job, and if they were to screw up and let a Dunblane happen, we'd crucify them quite readily. So I'm not ready to nail them up for covering thier asses just yet, not when I know any of us would do the same thing were we in the same situation.

If your job is to take names and numbers and issue firearms certs,your personal opinions are not supposed to come into the matter.

Actually, the personal opinion of the superintendent is enshrined in law as the final determinant of whether or not the licence is issued...

If the applicant has satisified the law and is requesting an item that he is entitled to under law.

Except that you're not entitled to it under law. At all. It's quite clear on this point - you're certainly entitled to apply for a licence for it (so long as you're not covered by Article Eight of the Act), but to actually get it? Nope. No entitlement whatsoever - it's down to the decision of the Superintendent.

Maybe it is just me,but I was under the misapprenhension that if i fulfilled the requirements of the law ,I was entitled to certain things and services in return and within a reasonable time frame.

Your error You are entitled to apply, and to have your application processed legally and in a reasonable timeframe, but you aren't legally entitled to get the licence.

Irishglockfan

Sparks wrote:

Firstly, well done. Few enough seem to have done so.


You know, some of those "scum" are actually good people who I'd consider friends.
I had "friends" like that once too.Until I was hung up by them for their own glory.Be careful of them they can be a very double edged sword.

Wrong on both counts. See here.



Are you nuts? 200 euro might be something I can get together, but a 19-year-old student? I don't know what your weekend pissups were like, but mine were counted on the sixth fingers of each hand as a student.

£60 back in 1984-88.Thats what I was living on,ran a car, and managed to do it.And there were fellow students who had more.[£120]Lot of money in those days.


Look, right now the NTSA and IPSCA have difficulty in getting people to pay a tenth of what you're talking about, and they know what they're getting for that. Trying to get shooters to cough up the equivalent of 2000 rounds of decent ammo without a public budget breakdown? Not going to happen!

a major problem indeed.Two things should be insurance and legal aid.Hell add a credit card and discounts from firearms related busisness??


Myself and civ discussed it but the decision was that rather than people posting their home addresses and what kind of firearm they had there (hello Mr. Burglar!)
Cant belive that anyone would be that dopey anymore.But then.


No, I'm saying that the largest civil protests in the nation's history did nothing to change the policy they were opposing.

Thats because it was Irl Govt "policy" to ignore that.Not only that it was political and Bertie had promised[rashly?] to help on the war on terror in any way possible.The reality is Shannon is a spillover airport from Mildenhall and Weisbaden also it is hauling in some good money for the Irl govt.




So what good would it do us?
Look at the Hunt lobby in the UK right now to see what the outcome would be!
That isnt over by a long shot!! and they are moving to direct action.I guess it comes to a point where you have to decide where you draw the line.



Oh, they've no love for us, that's true. Thing is, they're not looking at us right now - and right now we have other battles we need to fight!

Not saying fight them now.Keep good intell on them



Or if you were a person of honour you would accept the blame and that you screwed up and tender your resignation at once.


Actually, the personal opinion of the superintendent is enshrined in law as the final determinant of whether or not the licence is issued...

Funnily enough your super refers back to your local sargent,as to what kind of a person you are.I was called in to have a chat with my local super as he hadnt a clue who i was or what gun i was applying for [rifle /shotgun combo]
granted the liscense there and then.


Except that you're not entitled to it under law. At all. It's quite clear on this point - you're certainly entitled to apply for a licence for it (so long as you're not covered by Article Eight of the Act), but to actually get it? Nope. No entitlement whatsoever - it's down to the decision of the Superintendent.

But OTOH if you fulfil the critea.what would happen if this was put in the driving section of the law?Ok you have a liscence to drive,are you a safe person?going by some drivers here no.It's a double standard,that if it was applied to the motorist it would raise a hue and cry.

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

I had "friends" like that once too.Until I was hung up by them for their own glory.Be careful of them they can be a very double edged sword.

Now hang on. Some of these people (Lindie Naughton in the Evening Herald for example) have written nothing but good about us, they've come to our competitions, they've interviewed our shooters and they've tried their hand at shooting. There are those who aren't as open-minded, but so far I've not seen anyone who was rabidly anti-gun, just some who were mis-informed.

£60 back in 1984-88.Thats what I was living on,ran a car, and managed to do it.And there were fellow students who had more.[£120]Lot of money in those days.

Damn sight more than I ever saw, and that was five years after you!

a major problem indeed.Two things should be insurance and legal aid.Hell add a credit card and discounts from firearms related busisness??

It's a good idea - but I'm not sure how you'd work it with so few shooters about. The insurance alone was hard to sort out, and that's not even fully done yet!

Cant belive that anyone would be that dopey anymore.But then.

Never underestimate the ability of the universe to produce dopey people...

Thats because it was Irl Govt "policy" to ignore that.

And you think they'd listen to a demo from gun owners???
(Tabloid emphasis added to show what I mean)

Look at the Hunt lobby in the UK right now to see what the outcome would be!

That isnt over by a long shot!!

I was specifically meaning their demo the other day, rather than the campaign as a whole.

Not saying fight them now.Keep good intell on them

Well, that rather goes without saying, really. Though calling it "intel" gives it somewhat more credit than is due!

Or if you were a person of honour you would accept the blame and that you screwed up and tender your resignation at once.

Screwed up what?

Funnily enough your super refers back to your local sargent,as to what kind of a person you are.

Yes, but generally that's for the non-troublemakers. Those who're not likely to get the licence are generally known at the upper levels!

I was called in to have a chat with my local super as he hadnt a clue who i was or what gun i was applying for [rifle /shotgun combo]
granted the liscense there and then.

Yup. Generally, if you're not a threat to anyone, you get the licence. That was the main purpose of the original Act as drafted.

But OTOH if you fulfil the critea.what would happen if this was put in the driving section of the law?Ok you have a liscence to drive,are you a safe person?going by some drivers here no.It's a double standard,that if it was applied to the motorist it would raise a hue and cry.

Indeed. But then there are things that we can do that motorists can't - we have no legal obligation to pay a VRT on our rifles on top of VAT, for example; nor are we legally required to have insurance (it's just a very, very bad idea not to have any!).