Choosing a Projector

ZENER

The one who must be consulted on all financial transactions has given me permission to buy a projector and screen for the living room.

I've had a good read through any related threads here and on projector central as well as a friend who works in the computer supply business and have come up with a shortlist of devices in my price range, any reader experiences or advice would be very much appreciated before I part with her hard earned cash !

My friend in the computer business works for a company who are agents for Ben-Q and Canon he has suggested the following:

BenQ PB6200 DLP Projector XGA
Canon LV X2 LCD Projector

Both of these have received excellent reviews. One question though is can I buy a component to 15 Pin D-Sub adaptor for the BenQ model ?

Other models I've seen are:

Hitachi PJ-LC5
HP VP6111
Panasonic PT-AE500U

The only WXGA device above is the Panasonic, considering this unit will be used primarily for DVD movies and Sky Sports football coverage how important is this, will the other 4:3 devices still display a wide 16:9 picture or do they all expand to fill 4:3.
Does anyone know if the pixel aspect is different on a WXGA compared to an XGA or SVGA.

I'm seriously considering the Panasonic to be honest but am willing to be swayed by someone else's experiences or advice.

ZEN

robbie1876

Nice one ZENER! Great to hear you are going for the projector, I'm delighted for you.

Of the models listed, I would immediately pick the Panasonic. In fairness though, I've only ever installed the Panasonic and a slightly older version of the Hitachi, so I can't comment on the others. I will be installing the Hitachi PJ-LC5 in October though, so I'll let you know how I get on with it if you haven't decided by then.

You can get component to 15 pin D-sub leads, in fact if you need one, I have a few spare ones left over from a job so you can have one of them for free, since you very kindly let us have access to your photos from Boardstock

The only thing to watch is that usually a VGA input requires horizontal and vertical sync as well as the component signal. I'm not sure if the BenQ needs this or not.

Something to consider is a scaler / line doubler. Something like the iScan Pro by Silicon Image. It takes your component from DVD, RBG from Sky, VGA from your PC, and also composite and S-Video, then doubles the lines and scales the image to match the native resolution of your projector. It just sends everything down a standard VGA cable, so you only need one video cable running to your projector. It's a solution for the BenQ, but will also be worthwhile for any other projector. I've used one on the AE500 before with great success.

The non 16:9 projectors will still display a widescreen image, but you will lose some of the vertical lines by doing so. If you are buying a 16:9 screen, you need to do your maths fairly carefully to make sure the projector can fill the screen when running in 16:9 mode, as the throw distances described for these projectors tend to be in 4:3 format.

WXGA is 1366x768 pixels, whereas XGA is 1024x768. I'm not sure what you mean by different aspect pixels. Most projectors will accept signals up to SXGA, but will scale them down to their native resolution, usually XGA.

I'd post the same question in the projector section of avforums.co.uk too, there are some real experts over there who could offer you detailed help.

If I can help you out more, just holler!

Robbie

ZENER

robbie1876 wrote:

Nice one ZENER! Great to hear you are going for the projector, I'm delighted for you.

Well it could be a long winter so I'm preparing my cave for comfort, heh heh !

Of the models listed, I would immediately pick the Panasonic. In fairness though, I've only ever installed the Panasonic and a slightly older version of the Hitachi, so I can't comment on the others. I will be installing the Hitachi PJ-LC5 in October though, so I'll let you know how I get on with it if you haven't decided by then.

Yeah my head is telling me Panasonic but my pocket is saying BenQ. My friend is able to get me trade price on this and the Canon unit so that makes them attractive. That said the Panasonic is just under 1700 on Komplett which compares well with his prices. That plus I've actually seen the Panasonic in a real home cinema setup is pushing me towards the WXGA native unit.

In your experience Robbie is the fact that the Panasonic is an LCD device rather than DLP something I should be worried about, or is this another manufacturers "our numbers are higher than your's!" thing. I hope to achieve a 7 or 8 foot wide image if this helps with the answer.

You can get component to 15 pin D-sub leads, in fact if you need one, I have a few spare ones left over from a job so you can have one of them for free, since you very kindly let us have access to your photos from Boardstock

Most kind !

The only thing to watch is that usually a VGA input requires horizontal and vertical sync as well as the component signal. I'm not sure if the BenQ needs this or not.

This is why it helps to talk to someone in the know ! I had assumed that the sync on the luminance signal would have sufficed, The VGA plug standard specifies seperate H and V sync signals on pins 13 and 14, where would I get these on a standard DVD or SKY BOX, the scart will only supply a composite sync signal !

Something to consider is a scaler / line doubler. Something like the iScan Pro by Silicon Image. It takes your component from DVD, RBG from Sky, VGA from your PC, and also composite and S-Video, then doubles the lines and scales the image to match the native resolution of your projector. It just sends everything down a standard VGA cable, so you only need one video cable running to your projector. It's a solution for the BenQ, but will also be worthwhile for any other projector. I've used one on the AE500 before with great success.

OK I'll check that out so.

The non 16:9 projectors will still display a widescreen image, but you will lose some of the vertical lines by doing so. If you are buying a 16:9 screen, you need to do your maths fairly carefully to make sure the projector can fill the screen when running in 16:9 mode, as the throw distances described for these projectors tend to be in 4:3 format.

According to the calculator on http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator.cfm?part_id=2315 it should work OK in my room, I'll have a 10ft throw. The pixel aspect thing is something a movie employee guy I know mentiond, programs like photoshop deal with square pixels whereas movie editing software like Final Cut Pro and Permier deal with wide aspect (not square) pixels, he seemed to think it was important so just throwing it out there for comment.

Thanks for the advice Robbie, any suggestions on somewhere to buy projectors in Eire or the UK, is Kompletts price for the Panasonic competitive do you think ?

Cheers

ZEN

robbie1876

In your experience Robbie is the fact that the Panasonic is an LCD device rather than DLP something I should be worried about, or is this another manufacturers "our numbers are higher than your's!" thing. I hope to achieve a 7 or 8 foot wide image if this helps with the answer.

Nah, it doesn't make any difference as far as I'm concerned. DLP is the superior format, but a good LCD is better than a bad DLP. The AE500 is close to being as good as it gets with LCD, whereas BenQ is probably based around budget DLP components.

With DLP projectors, there is also the 'rainbow effect' to watch out for. I don't know if you've come across this before. What can happen is that on fast moving images such as movies, your eyes pick up on an occasional flash of colour, like a rainbow on the screen. It's also noticable if you look at the screen and then glance away. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. Part of the solution to this problem is to make sure your DLP projector has a 6 or 8 segment colour wheel and that it spins at a very high rate! I couldn't find any info on the colour wheel in the BenQ 6200. However, their site has it listed as an office projector, which usually suggests that it is set up for static images to be displayed very brightly in a boardroom. Sometimes these projectors sacrifice colour wheel segments and speed for lumens and contrast ratio, which is fair enough as that's the role they are intended for.

LCD on the other hand doesn't suffer from the rainbow effect phenomenom as it works on a different technology altogether. How far from your 7 or 8 foot screen will you be sitting? Rainbow is more noticable the closer you are to the screen.

This is why it helps to talk to someone in the know ! I had assumed that the sync on the luminance signal would have sufficed, The VGA plug standard specifies seperate H and V sync signals on pins 13 and 14, where would I get these on a standard DVD or SKY BOX, the scart will only supply a composite sync signal !

If the VGA input needs H and V sync, the only way to get it from a Sky box or DVD is to use something like the iScan Pro to convert the signals into full VGA. The iScan outputs all the required H, V and luminence syncs. With the AE500, you can just connect straight into the component inputs, or the S-video if required, but that obviously means more messy cabling running to the projector.

The pixel aspect thing is something a movie employee guy I know mentiond, programs like photoshop deal with square pixels whereas movie editing software like Final Cut Pro and Permier deal with wide aspect (not square) pixels, he seemed to think it was important so just throwing it out there for comment.

I have to say, that's something I've never come across before, but it's interesting. I would hazard a guess that wide aspect pixels are more for anamorphic screens (2.35:1 ratio) rather than widescreen (16:9 ratio). In the bigger screens of commercial cinemas, you'll notice that the screen is much wider than a regular 16:9 screen. That's the anamorphic aspect, and is probably what the wide aspect pixels are used for. The projectors we are talking about are either 4:3 or 16:9, so I would imagine wide pixels have nothing to do with it, but am open for correction! By the way, even with a WXGA projector and a 16:9 screen, movies which are in anamorphic format on your DVD disk (most movies are in this format tbh) will still appear with black lines top and bottom of your screen. You can change aspect ratio on your projector to compensate for this, but you'll lose the left and right edges of the image by zooming in. This sucks, and it's something that annoys me on every install I do.

It is possible to purchase 2.35:1 screens and projectors, but you are into telephone numbers to do it.

Thanks for the advice Robbie, any suggestions on somewhere to buy projectors in Eire or the UK, is Kompletts price for the Panasonic competitive do you think ?

Komplett's price is pretty hard to beat in Ireland, afaik. You may be able to get it slightly cheaper in the UK, but with VAT and shipping it won't be worth it.

Robbie

ASTRACLUB

Lads

Can i also add something to it.
I am also looking for a projector and really i have almost done a research on it as i only want to buy the best and only for home cinema.
so first thing first:---
DLP vs LCD :- The LCD technology is best for home cinema system and DLP is mainly for powerpoint presentation and othe things and one more thing the running cost and maintaining cost wise DLP are worst as LAMP life is very uncertain, For home cinema thing one must got to LCD as the moving picture are best viewd.
Now my crietrial for buying a projector is:--

1. Lumnes :-- i am looking for 1000-1200 but will settle for 800 as well.
2. Noise:-- Anything under 28db noise would do for me.
4. Contast ratio:-- they start frmo 300:1 for LCD (Don't mind DLP contrast ratio as they are mostly for powerpoint and other presenations) Sony VPL HS3 has 700:1 but the best is SANYO PLV-Z2(1300:1)
3. Lamp life: atleast 3000 hr, no miimum then that
4. Of course throw distance and proj screen
5. input signals, some are coming with scart connection as well

now here is my top 4 choice

1. Sony VPL HS3 (approx Euro 1699 in ireland) but you can buy it for Euro 1530+/- 10 from UK website (given below)
2. Sanyo PLV-Z2 (Approx Euro1800 in EIRE) but aroun1500 +/-20 euro in UK
3. Panasonic PT-AE500 approx 1900 euro in UK

here are some of website you can have a look
www.nomatica.com
www.sanyo.ie
www.www.uk-projectors-online.com
www.dabs.com
www.elara.ie
www.ebuyer.co.uk
www.kelkoo.co.uk (try this for minimum comparison)

i am still a little bit confused on the above top 3
money and cost wise EPSON TW10H is also a good choice, which is 1000 euro in pcworld but i am not sure which one should buy.
i have recieved catalogue frmo sanyo.ie office and the person is in directly touch with me,
I have been to harvey norman as well in swords and really they are very goood in demo as well but are a bit costly, but worth visit.

so hope this will help you, give me mail back if you ned more info or for more clarification.
regards

Divya

ZENER

ASTRACLUB wrote:

Lads
DLP vs LCD :- The LCD technology is best for home cinema system and DLP is mainly for powerpoint presentation and othe things and one more thing the running cost and maintaining cost wise DLP are worst as LAMP life is very uncertain, For home cinema thing one must got to LCD as the moving picture are best viewd.

This has been my experience too, all the best projectors aimed squarely at the home cinema market tend to be LCD devices with 800+ contrast and widescreen native aspect. Another feature thats prominent in this sector is proper phono component inputs.

Now my crietrial for buying a projector is:--

All realistic expectations except for maybe the noise figure, 28dB is pretty quiet and most of the units I've seen are about 30 or 32dB in normal mode whereas some are quieter in ECO mode.

1. Sony VPL HS3 (approx Euro 1699 in ireland) but you can buy it for Euro 1530+/- 10 from UK website (given below)
2. Sanyo PLV-Z2 (Approx Euro1800 in EIRE) but aroun1500 +/-20 euro in UK
3. Panasonic PT-AE500 approx 1900 euro in UK

The Sanyo has an impressive spec but I just have this thing about the company, they used to be the Asian version of Amstrad in the early days.
I plumbed for the Panasonic device in the end - recommendations from various people - and I actually saw the device in operation which helped. Most of the projectors in Harvey Normans were 4:3 aspect and old models with SVGA panels. The Panasonic is available from www.komplett.ie for €1693 incl of VAT.

Thanks for the advice !

ZEN

Headshot

lads can ye also give me advice im looking for a projector which will play xbox games and watching movies on

gorm

I bought my panny a few of months ago. No regrets. Use it for movies mostly but I also pipe analog TV through it as well from time to time. Added atmosphere to football games!! The kids play the PS2 through it as well. Multiplayer games really knock'em out. each end up with a screen bigger than the 32" telly, so putting Xbox through it should be the same.

Headshot

yo gorm hope you dont mind me asking how much did it cost ya [the projector]

also whats the full name of the projector

gorm

snoopdog wrote:

yo gorm hope you dont mind me asking how much did it cost ya [the projector]

also whats the full name of the projector

Panasonic PT-AE500E bought from Komplett.ie for €1693 inc. vat. 500E means its the european model which includes a SCART socket as opposed the 500U model which doesn't.

robbie1876

ASTRACLUB wrote:

DLP vs LCD :- The LCD technology is best for home cinema system and DLP is mainly for powerpoint presentation and othe things and one more thing the running cost and maintaining cost wise DLP are worst as LAMP life is very uncertain, For home cinema thing one must got to LCD as the moving picture are best viewd.

I wouldn't totally agree with you on this. DLP is a superior technology, percieved extra brightness, significant extra contrast and the pixels are closer together than on an LCD, so you don't get that 'chicken wire' effect. On high end single lens projectors, the vast majority of manufacturers use DLP technology. I had the pleasure to watch a £125,000 Runco 3 chip DLP projector in action recently and it was simply the best image I've ever seen from any projector. There is no LCD can come close to it.

Having said that, a good LCD is certainly better than a bad DLP. The market is becoming flooded with cheap DLP projectors suitable for boardrooms because of their brightness. For example, at the price point of the Panasonic AE500, you won't find a better DLP projector for home cinema use, in my opinion. Once you get closer to about €10k, it's DLP all the way.

The only real problem with DLP projectors is the 'rainbow effect' you may have heard about. This happens because the each frame is projected internally through a colour wheel, with Red, Green and Blue segments. So it's actually 3 different coloured images that is projected. Your brain reassembles these 3 images into one image, but sometimes if you refocus on a different part of the screen you catch a flash of colour, referred to as the rainbow effect.

When looking at the specs of a DLP projector, check out how many segments are in the colour wheel, and how fast the wheel spins. The more segments, and the quicker the wheel spins, the better. The cheap DLP aimed at boardrooms tend to struggle with moving images more because of simply bad quality components in that brand of projector rather than a failing of DLP technology as a whole. The incoming image to a projector is digitally scaled within the projector, and it's this process that lets most cheap DLP projectors down.

The 3 chip DLP proectors have seperate chips for Red, Green and Blue, thereby eliminating the problem rainbow effect. Once the 3 chip technology starts to become mainstream, it'll be bye bye LCD. For now though, cheap LCD is generally better than cheap DLP.

Robbie

Headshot

dam! i would pay that much for a projector 1639.00 i would only pay around 500

is there any good projector out there for less that 500 euro



or should i get my friend to build one for me

i dont know much about projector but i know this fella in the usa who might do it for me [build one]

shabbyroad

Hey Robbie1876
You might remember my Seleco 320+ (CRT installed in my home) , you delivered a PC or something to my house one time.
It really needs convergence done. I did it myself a couple of years ago and although it wasn't a bad job (even if I say so myself !) I wonder if it was as good as it should be.
Do you do this type of work or can you point me toward someone who does ?

robbie1876

Ah yes, I do indeed remember well, was a very nice setup you had there. I don't do CRT convergence myself, but when I install them I contract the convergence out to a company called System Video, based in Palmerstown. These guys do convergence setup on Seleco (now Sim2), Barco and Sony projectors. They can be contacted on 01 6200900.

Hope that helps,

Robbie

ZENER

Took delivery of the "Precious One" today

Initial viewing against a white wall was beautiful, will keep ye posted on how the whole install goes, I bought an 84" screen and will be mounting that behind a new pelmet tomorrow, the sub (mission Ms8) sounds the biz too.

Thanks to all (especially Robbie) for the advice !

ZEN

ASTRACLUB

Zen

Congratulations!

Yes Panasonic PTAE500 and Sanyo PLV Z2 are competing very closely and Z2 is approx E150 cheaper then the pana but the project distance in pana is 3m more then Z2. one more thing about DLP and LCD as mentioned above, of course DLP is better technology but you are looking for more then E10 k to really experience DLP. Also DLP looks good as most of the organisations go for it and it just stayed at one palce in a confrence room but again running cost and other maintenance cost like bulb and color wheel etc are a bit extra. also the rainbow effect is a frequent one for playing movies. On the other hand LCD is specially designed for home cinema system purpose and if you really want to move your projector from one place to another or changing rooms or going to friend then LCD is more reliable then DLP.

Now PANA PTAE500 is costing E1693+10 from www.komplett.ie and same thing costing around E1615(including delivery to EIRE) from www.pixmania.com

One more thing here if you buy from komplett, they have delivery option from GLS-IRELAND(Std. charges E10) and DHL(Charges E50) and GLS-Ireland are really crap.

I bought a USB memory pen stick from komplett and GLS initially posted on tracking website that "misrouted error from england" and after 1 week they said "addresse not available" while i was at home whole time. After 2 weeks this fella came to house, rang the bell only once and started going back, i stoped him from window and after asking the reason for going back, he said that he thought there was no one at house, so they are really crap but you have no option. delivery wise www.richersound.ie are the best, i bought a pioneer 550 watt home cinema cystem with wireless reap speaker and multi reg. on friday and they delivered it thru DHL on following thursday and only charged E10 for all 3 unit, anyway that is nothing related to projector.

ZEN

how much you bought your screen for and from where. after all 1+ months of extensive research, i have bought Panasonic PT-AE700E from www. komplett.ie for review, http://www.bluefi.co.uk/news/panasonic_ptae700_projector.html
this was none in stock and on contacting they said that total 5 order have been received from EIRE customer and their lead time is 7 days + great www.gls-ireland.com delivery time. lets see
this is based on high defnition technology and 1000 ANSI +2000:1 ratio with 28db fan noise and scart. it is just launched in september.

Right, Zener, please post your satisfaction update and if you the same 3 bed semi det. house like me then also let me know the set-up config.
I have bay window in my house and TV and home cinema is right in middle of front wall (i.e. in the middle of window and not in corner). so i am planing to put the proj on the wall above the link door (the 2 feet portion above at the link door from living room to dining room). but main problem is having dark blind for bay window.
lets see will keep you posted and once completed, will also post a picture of set-up.

Regards

Div

robbie1876

Nice one ZENER!!

I'm delighted for you, couldn't have wishing an AE500 on a nicer chap ! What screen did you purchase, out of curiousity? Once you have the screen up and running the AE500 can be tweaked to pull the best out of it, if you thought it looks good now, you won't know yourself with a bit a modification. There's loads of AE500 guides over on avorums.co.uk, and they are all good.

What DVD player are you using, and how are you hooking it up?

Robbie

ASTRACLUB

I have purchase Pansonic PT AE700 from www.komplett.ie for E1699 + E10 for delivery. there is a lead time of 7 days, so just waiting for this to be delivered.

Regards

Div

robbie1876

Congrats Astraclub, a very fine projector indeed, although I've never seen one working in the flesh. Do let us know your opinion on it when it arrives!

Robbie

ZENER

Thanks Robbie and Astraclub.

I mounted the screen yesterday and tried a couple of movies out and initial impressions are great. Thanks for the tip robbie I'll do a bit of research into tweaking the pana and see what it's really capable of. I'm not sure of the brand - if any - of the screen but I do find it difficult to get solid blacks in a well darkened room despite playing with the settings - any suggestions ??

One thing that was obvious was some feint vertical banding on flat colours particularly skies etc, I suppose that's because of the scaling done to the original picture. The progressive scanning made a considerable difference to the picture I'm glad to say - no more migrains - yippeee!!.

For the moment I only have the DVD Player - Yamaha DVD S540 - connected via the component input on the amp - Denon AVR2803 - and the front pair of Aegis Evo 2 way speakers, Mission Ms8 Sub and Mission Center MCS?? - the rears are just a set of warfdale program D30 which will suffice until by credit card recovers . I'm still trying to decide how I will hook up my Sky Digi-Box - RGB or SV - RGB means a Scart with a hefty cable to try to route to the projector SV is a compromise - either way can't wait to see what the footy looks & sounds like on it !!

My living room where this stuff lives is 13x11 feet so the projector fills and lights up the 84" screen nicely with plenty left on reserve even with the lamp in low power mode !

With regards to delivery methods - robbie I did heed your advice re GLS and specified the DHL option, unfortunately there were some complications with the order and it didn't go as smoothly as it should have thanks to the credit card company flagging the card for a security check (check out the komplett thread) anyway komplett decided to make it up to me despite their innocence and threw in free shipping - you guesed it - with GLS. I'd forgotten to stress DHL in the phone conversation and by the time I realised it was too late.

Let this be a lesson to anyone who orders from komplett - the company (komplett) themselves are fine with nice staff and a very professional manner but they should choose a better delivery company or only offer DHL.

I watched in horror as the delivery lad THREW my package 4 foot from the van to the footpath !!! He got a surprise when he realised I'd been watching him the entire 10 mins he was in the back of the rigid truck searching for my package - the sounds coming from the truck were most worrying indeed and I pity anyone whose delivery came after mine !!

Anyway my projector was in one piece and worked !!

ZEN

robbie1876

ZENER wrote:

I do find it difficult to get solid blacks in a well darkened room despite playing with the settings - any suggestions ??

Well It's impossible to get solid blacks from either DLP or LCD, only a CRT can get you that. You can darken the blacks by lowering the brightness and raising the contrast. Also, on the AE500, there is a point at around 55 or so on the brightness setting where the blacks suddenly become noticably grey. Look for that point and set the brightness below it. Other than that, just look for other peoples user setup configs for the AE500 on avforums, copy some of them and see do they work for you.

I'm still trying to decide how I will hook up my Sky Digi-Box - RGB or SV - RGB means a Scart with a hefty cable to try to route to the projector SV is a compromise - either way can't wait to see what the footy looks & sounds like on it !!

RGB all the way! There's not a massive difference between the thickness of a Scart lead and an S-video lead, so I'd go Scart for Sky.

Man, can't believe you had to watch the GLS guy chuck you projector on the ground, what a nightmare! Glad it all worked though, and well if you got free delivery and it didn't get damaged, then alls well that ends well.

Robbie

Makaveli

Out of curiosity do you all live in detached houses or semi-d?
What do the neighbours say about the noise from the speakers and the woofer?
I'm not allowed get home cinema, the parents can't hack the woofer on the pc so they have barred home cinema. Bastids.

ZENER

I live in an end house and unfortunately my living room and theirs is side by side. They're nice people just the two of them and they have a disabled lad. I've been very careful with the audio and particularly the Sub after 9pm. Even before that I don't go too mad but still get to enjoy it.

Thinking of moving to a bigger house soon anyway so that should solve that problem. I'd really love to let it rip and may get a chance soon as they're going away for a weekend - WOHOO!!!

Your folks sound like mine when I lived at home, I remember when I got my first stereo system my dad said I had to put one of the speakers downstairs so he could judge how loud it was. Took a while to get him to understand what stereo was !!

ZEN

ASTRACLUB

I live in typical traditional 3 bed semi detetch, and have not faced any problem yet about noise as whenever they have noise or a bit of party, i dont object and it is give and take but i dont loud sound most of the time.
Komplett sent me the mail that PT AE700 is not in the stock unitll 5th oct.......so more wait is there, they have 10 ordered till today waiting to be delivered.
i rang komplett lads and also send the thread link of delivery to komplett as well as gls (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=185734&page=1&pp=20 )
Komplett is negotiating with more courier companyies in ireland and they do know the problem, but they also say that majority of the items are delivered properly.
anyway
lets see.
div