Money buys you freedom

ArphaRima

I was having a debate with my mates last night -admittedly a drunken one. Basically I was arguing that you are only as free as your finances allow you to be. Therefore money buys and secures you freedom.

They are still students and therefore havent much experience with money, and I work, and have done for the last five years, and I also travel a hell of a lot. Slowly I have come to believe the above mantra.

Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. I believe money buys you longer chains.

joePC

Agreed, Money does buy you Freedom, e.g. I want to go traveling again, (Back 2 days ago, 2 months away) But lack of funds, college etc... I cant, If I had enough money I would.....

Money, Money, Money............

Stark

Oh hell yeah.

BlitzKrieg

But what about Money taking away freedom?

When you have money you are given freedom

but there are people out there who want so much *freedom* from their money that they take your freedom away to get it (not simple stealing...) They jack up prices, they bring in laws to restrict what you wish to do with this money and so on.


Yes money can bring freedom. But there it is heavily unbalanced and some people have so much *freedom* that they wish to keep a large number of others down with it.

ok that all looks like nonsense. I'll try and think of a better way to describe it. (if anyone else can make out what i am on about can they simplifie it for me?)

ArphaRima

Sorry blitzkrieg, cant understand your argument at all. try again.

Stabshauptmann

BlitzKrieg wrote:

But what about Money taking away freedom?

When you have money you are given freedom

but there are people out there who want so much *freedom* from their money that they take your freedom away to get it (not simple stealing...) They jack up prices, they bring in laws to restrict what you wish to do with this money and so on.


Yes money can bring freedom. But there it is heavily unbalanced and some people have so much *freedom* that they wish to keep a large number of others down with it.

ok that all looks like nonsense. I'll try and think of a better way to describe it. (if anyone else can make out what i am on about can they simplifie it for me?)

Nicely put

Hagar

I'm reminded of the old 1970's saying,
"Life is like a shít sandwich, the more bread you have the less shít you have to swallow."

BlitzKrieg

ok you have money right...and it gives you all the freedoms you enjoy today.

And to support your argument there are people in third world countries which dont have money therefore they dont have much freedom and in fact life is pretty crap overall.

Now if you sacrifice some of your *freedom* such as support free trade in the third world and (in a overall western society sense not just you) stop abusing the third world for your money and freedom and actually allow them to earn the same as us. Then the result would be you would get less *freedom* for you but it would be overall fair for everyone.

But how many people do you know in the western world are willing to do that? sacrifice the money we make (or *freedom* as you put it) to help people we dont know.

Yes Money is freedom but it is also unfairly distributed and can be used as a tool to stop freedom!



there i hope thats a better way of putting it...i think.

Stabshauptmann

Perhaps power would be a better word than freedom. Ppl have power to do things and some ppl have power over others. You can be middlin in the whole bank account department yet have more freedom that a higher earner who has a mortgage and social commitments like marrage.

btw very mature fluffer :rollseyes

ArphaRima

Yeah Blitzkrieg. I agree with you.
I suppose the whole idea behind what I was trying to say was that without money, even in our free society, you can be as restricted as someone in a repressive society.

People will work to make themselves and their family better off. To get the comforts and benefits that money can buy. Even something as basic as education is bought. In our country we are affluent enough to support a socialist style free education system. In places like america (land of the free indeed), quite a few people have to risk their lives in the army to afford college.

stop abusing the third world for your money and freedom and actually allow them to earn the same as us.

I have thought about this quite a bit. Eventually I came to feel that in fact, apart from some really blatant abuses, the world is actually advancing quite quicky, though definitely not uniformly. Asia is at a point now where we were 150 years ago, with some cities as advanced as the best european capitals, and others ravaged by the quick onset of capitalism and industrialism. But they are advancing. The middle east, asia, africa and south america have progressed hugely since the 1920's. They are nowhere near our level just yet, and just like british companies came here to use our cheap labour, they are in early industrial conditions now. 50 years, and they will match our current level. Many countries have jumped from tribal and clan based hierarchies to industrial lifestyles.

The argument above is incomplete, but I think a fair representation of current trends.
necromancer, sorry but I knew it was you,no hard feelings. a better explanation than "idiot" was due I felt. bk knew what I meant.

the_syco

Money may make you free, but to make money you must give up your freedom and work 5 days a week.

Victor

Freedom is slavery. Slavery is freedom.

the_syco

Victor wrote:

Freedom is slavery. Slavery is freedom.

I agree. To try to get this "freedom" you must work all the time; ie no freedom, but to do nothing, you will not be free, becuase to do anything cots money.

Stabshauptmann

Well Im lost, you said you didnt understand what he was saying and yet you now agree with it. I really am lost.
Of course no hard feelings but is there a private understanding Im missing

SantaHoe

the_syco wrote:

Money may make you free, but to make money you must give up your freedom and work 5 days a week.

That's my viewpoint in a nutshell.
Add to this some of the high paying jobs that require you to take your work home with you, and what kind of freedom are you trying to buy?

Freedom is such an all-encompassing word though, freedom to do what? ... Freedom to live in a big house, drive a fast car and go on two forign holidays every year?
That's just financial freedom and it's still limited... unless of course you've got so much money that you can bribe all the right people to make your will dominate over the will of the masses... which I think is close to Blitzs point.

I don't worry too much about my own freedom, since I'm not being whipped to pick cotton, I'm not sitting in a tiny room with no natural light sewing trainers 14 hours a day for enough to keep me alive for another day, I don't fear being shot for talking negetively about Bertie Ahern and I don't fear having my house blown up by F16s or suicide bombers.
All things considered, working 8 hours a day for the general Irish living standard isn't all that bad.

the_syco

Necromancer wrote:

Well Im lost, you said you didnt understand what he was saying and yet you now agree with it.

Eh, you talkin' to me?

Stabshauptmann

I have what I think is an interesting paradox. Do any of you have a dog. What happens when you try to bring them for a walk?

Let me expand, my dog, like my friends dogs, hated learning about leads and walking. The first time I put a lead on her she dug he heals in and refused to budge. Now she loves it. If she hears it rattle she comes running. By confining her movements Im giving her the freedom to travel.

I think its interesting anyway

Stabshauptmann

the_syco wrote:

Eh, you talkin' to me?

No fluffer is coonfusing the hell out of me. He said something which was fine, bk writes what appears to me to be an intelligent and well constructed reply and fluffer takes advantage of the last line in said reply to tell him the post was useless.
This kinda annoyed me and I supported bk (even though I dont know him). It may turn out that fluffer in fact knows him and was joking, which unfortunatly if thats the case I didnt pick up on.

BlitzKrieg

me? intelligent?


since when did this happen?


No I dont personnally know fluffer. But I think my 2nd post using an example made the point clearer then the first time around.


A different swing on the whole freedom debate. How much freedom are you willing to sacrifice for comfort and securtiy. Essentially the protests about GWB and the patriot act. The flaw there is that his actions are not bringing security. But if they could? Would you allow them?

Stabshauptmann

BlitzKrieg wrote:

me? intelligent?


since when did this happen?


No I dont personnally know fluffer. But I think my 2nd post using an example made the point clearer then the first time around.


A different swing on the whole freedom debate. How much freedom are you willing to sacrifice for comfort and securtiy. Essentially the protests about GWB and the patriot act. The flaw there is that his actions are not bringing security. But if they could? Would you allow them?

Thats exactly what I was getting at with my dog paradox

BlitzKrieg

ahh yes i see now you were.

i have a dog too similar situation.

very clever

DublinWriter

fluffer wrote:

I was having a debate with my mates last night -admittedly a drunken one. Basically I was arguing that you are only as free as your finances allow you to be. Therefore money buys and secures you freedom.

Two words for you dude - Howard Hughes.

...and if you don't know who Howard Hughes was, here's another two words for you - Michael Jackson.

Thank you, and goodnight.

Stabshauptmann

DublinWriter wrote:

Two words for you dude - Howard Hughes.

...and if you don't know who Howard Hughes was, here's another two words for you - Michael Jackson.

Thank you, and goodnight.

OJ Simpson?

mike65

Whilst we've all serving up platitudes can I add this one -

"Freedom is another word for nothing less to loose"

Money does'nt buy you freedom in absolute terms it buys you the ability to choose between compromise a and b.

Mike.

Redleslie2

Being rich can be as much of a prison as being poor and owning money and things is ok until they start owning you. I may be paraphrasing a bit from fight club and some buddhist stuff there.

ArphaRima

Oh man, my browser just died when i was just finishing a really long reply. bloody annoying. Ill try again later. Damnit.