Finally did it...

Micheal Wittman

Well I finally went to the Garda station and made a written request for authorisation to hold a deactivated Kar98. to hold it I just need a letter saying the guards have no objection - thats all.

I gave the written letter along with my reasons for wanting it, a picture, info on the seller, details etc. I also included the specific law stating I need the superintentent to give the all clear...

Only thing is that was 2 weeks ago tomorrow - I m a nice guy and have never got in trouble before, but I get the impression the station isn't taking this seriously.

I'd understand if this was for an ak47 or some sort of other bank robbing weapon ( just run in with the thing and wave it around)
But its an old bolt action rifle captured at Stalingrad by the Russians.
Its also in excellent condition as it was stored in Russia until last year.

I have an interest in WW2 and Germany in gereral so u can see my reason. I have no interest whatsoever of ever buying a gun. Not really my sort of thing.

Im worried though as my estate although not horrible is a council estate in Dublin and i'm thinking the Station will take me for some scumbag out to use it in a threatening way. I'm anxious that they phone me for an interview so they can see I am a decent person but I'm still waiting....

Any ideas on what to do - I m afraid to keep ringing the Superintentents offfice in case I offend. U guys have more experience in guns and the law

Regards,

Gavin

Sparks

At the moment there are a huge number of licence applications and importation order applications with the Gardai and DoJ, and both seem to be waiting on the new firearms acts amendments before making serious inroads into the backlog. Legally, you're perfectly entitled to enquire after a week as to the progress of your request - just don't expect them to be breaking a sweat to get you permission to own a battlefield rifle, even as a deactivated ornament!

civdef

On the non-deactivated side of things, I'm hoping to import a Schmidt Rubin K31 from England whenever the DoJ gets sorted.



£245 for a pristine example is a tough deal to pass up.

Zakalwe

civdef wrote:

On the non-deactivated side of things, I'm hoping to import a Schmidt Rubin K31 from England whenever the DoJ gets sorted.

I thought "military" calibers were banned? Where are you going to get 7.5mm ammunition for this thing anyway?

civdef

Not any more. Ammunition is supplied by the same shop in England that sells the rifle, so no bother there - both new manufacture by FNM and match-quality surplus Swiss stuff.

Sparks

Zakalwe,
Military calibres like the .223, .303, the NATO 7.62mm and the US 5.54mm rounds (the .223 Remington is widely thought to be a drop-in replacement for the M-16's 5.54mm round, in fact it isn't quite, but the diameter of the round is the same so it was included, and since the AR-15, the M-16's semiautomatic civilian model, could be chambered for .222, that was included as well) were never banned. In fact, very little was ever banned in the legal sense apart from flamethrowers and artillery - the Firearms Acts allow for pretty much any kind of rifle, pistol or shotgun to be licenced legally, so long as such licencing wouldn't threaten the public safety or the peace (and some other conditions like the licencee having to be of age, of sound mind, without a criminal conviction and so on - see Article Four of the Firearms act for details).

However, since 1972, there was a Garda policy not to issue a licence for firearms based on their calibre and class - so no military calibres, nothing above .22 until the mid 1990s, and then nothing above .270 Winchester; no fully automatic rifles or shotguns; no semiautomatic rifles and no magazines larger than (IIRC) five rounds for a rifle (you'd have to check that one, I'm fuzzy on the specifics) or three for a shotgun (semiauto shotguns were fine though :rolleyes: ); and no pistols of any kind save starter pistols - and even they needed a licence.

The Department of Justice had a similar policy regarding the issueing of importation orders for firearms or ammunition.

A few weeks ago, the Garda policy was rescinded. So you can now apply for a licence for any form of firearms, again, so far as Section Four permits. However, either the DoJ hasn't rescinded its policy, or it's swamped (I'm hearing rumours saying both things), so noone's gotten an importation order yet. So while you can legally buy virtually anything you want outside the country, and even get a licence for it, you can't ship it here legally, even if it's only a short drive away in N.Ireland. And you can't legally ship the ammo here either. (And I have heard that the DoJ isn't kidding around when it says it'll prosecute anyone who tries it).

And there are amendments to the Firearms Acts on the way in the next sitting of the Dail which will in all likelihood put the Gardai's policy, or a version of it, into the Firearms Acts. So you're not about to see Ireland suddenly turn into the wild west, or get US-like laws on firearms, despite what some reporters have erroneously claimed.

Zakalwe

Very interesting as regards the law, but the M16 and AR15 fire NATO 5.56 x 45mm which is exactly the same as the .223 Remington.

Zakalwe

Whoops, It's not exactly the same. Apparently the NATO round generates more pressure and is not really recommended for use in a .223 even if it will fire.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

Wrestlemania

I think the Round you are talking about Sparks is the 5.56MM Nato Round the SS109 Round as used in Steyr AUG's Etc.

The Russians also use a 4.5 mm round in the AK74 hence replacing the the 7.62 x 39mm Round.

Sparks

Yup Zakalwe, that's the one. The throat setup in a military rifle is different from a target rifle and the 5.56 round will actually get jammed in non-military barrels in many cases - with rather unfortunate consequences for the unfortunate shooter whose face is a few inches from the chamber at the time...

It also points out another reason why the .222 was banned by Garda policy - the .223 Remington round was originally called the .222 Special, and is nearly identical to the .222 Remington Magnum round (though you can't interchange the two either).

Sparks

Yes Wrestle, originally it was just a US round, but it's since been adopted by NATO. (I don't normally follow military stuff closely, but this particular issue keeps coming up regularly for me for some reason).

civdef

Sparks wrote:

Zakalwe,
However, either the DoJ hasn't rescinded its policy, or it's swamped (I'm hearing rumours saying both things), so noone's gotten an importation order yet.

They seemingly are swamped, but several imports licences have being issued, I know of a couple of 303s and 308s personally.

Sparks

None for pistols though civ - and the fullbore target rifles were never really going to be a major issue, since they're single-shot bolt action things. I'm not sure about the non-target fullbores, but since hunting fullbores are legal here without problems, I suspect they'll be treated the same way.

Now M-16s or AK-47s... those I don't think we'll be seeing anytime in the next eon! (AR-15s - or at least the bushmaster target shooting versions of them - might be a different story since there is a huge amount of target shooting with them in the US. But they're not ISSF- or IMSSU-legal, so their case is harder to make).

woody

civdef wrote:

They seemingly are swamped, but several imports licences have being issued, I know of a couple of 303s and 308s personally.

If I could source a LEE Enfield .303 SMLE rifle from the UK would you say the odds would be good to import and license it.

They are by far the most robust and effective rifle for target shooting and in the military case sniping

Sparks

Sourcing one isn't a problem woody. Neither is licencing it (assuming you're in a target shooting club). Importing it, that's the rub. Put it this way - if it was me, I'd be writing into the Department of Justice about the amendments to the firearms act (see the sticky in this forum on that point), and applying to them for an importation order as well. I know of at least two people looking for .303s right now, and at least one looking for his 7.62 target rifle back, and the odds for them seem good.

However, they're not the best rifle for target shooting. The most accurate round out there right now is used in the ISSF event, it's the 6.5mm round used for 300m shooting. .303s aren't as good - though for the average shooter, the difference is probably negligible.

civdef

The NRA in the UK still have a wide range of service rifle competitions, mostly shot with the Lee Enfield or similar vintage rifles. Target shooting isn't all ISSF you know.

woody

Point to note I have seen all the stored weapons from 1972 in a secure Military establishment about 2 weeks ago.

Still in the reserves are these weapons to be handed back and also to note there is some variety of weapons such as FN FAL Semi Automatic 7.62 Rifles.

If I can I will get a few pics of them for all to see as it is not a restricted area just a magazine for weapons I will give it a shot and ask my CO.

Zakalwe

Sparks wrote:

. But they're not ISSF- or IMSSU-legal, so their case is harder to make).

How about a run down of different popular shooting disciplines? I've only shot air-rifle 10m and .22 prone 25yd and I'm not familiar with any other others.

Sparks

Civ,
Yup. But then you fullbore types always did tend to look down on the smallbore types, and they always tended to look down on airgun types... :rolleyes:

Me, I like smallbore and air, but fullbore just hurts my ears and pocket too much...

Zakalwe,
Sounds interesting - had you any sort of format in mind? (As in, rifle only, pistol only, events that happen in Ireland only or what?)

Woody,
That sounds interesting, would love to see the photos. And those confiscated firearms (they weren't all military weapons, there are a lot of target rifles, target pistols, family heirlooms and the like as well) are the only ones we'll be seeing in the next few months I would imagine, so it's relevant too.

Zakalwe

Sparks wrote:

Zakalwe,
Sounds interesting - had you any sort of format in mind? (As in, rifle only, pistol only, events that happen in Ireland only or what?)

I'm not sure to be honest. Worldwide would be interesting to see eventually. How about making the major categories rifle, shotgun and pistol and then subcategorising it further?. The next subheading could be a recognised shooting body, then breaking that further down into caliber or range?


Something like this

Rifle

       ISSF  <link to site>
 
               Air Rifle

                        <list of ISSF air rifle disciplines>
                        < link to rules and other info>

                .22 Rifle

                         <List of ISSF .22 disciplines>




Shotgun

        <some recognised rules body>

                <a shotgun discipline>
.............
...............



Pistol


..........
..........

I'm off on holidays to Spain tomorrow so I won't be able to contribue anything till afterwards, but I'll help where I can gathering links etc. when I get back.

Sparks

That might be a bit too structured Zakalwe, but the idea's good. I'll put up a new sticky with some of the ISSF events in it and leave it open for others to put in their events in it as well.

fre

Zakalwe wrote:

Very interesting as regards the law, but the M16 and AR15 fire NATO 5.56 x 45mm which is exactly the same as the .223 Remington.

Wasn't the M16 originally designed to be chambered for a different round than the one that was used, sorry I can't remember the specifics but afaik the chambering round was changed bacause of the stockpiles of the previous round, thus partly causing the early failures of the M16 in combat until they sorted the problems caused by using a round which it was not originally designed to fire...

God my memory has gone to crap....

civdef

It was designed all along to fire 5.56x45. The prototype was designed to use a specific type of powder though - as the AR15 design is prone to fouling problems.

This led in part to the M16 being touted by some as not requiring regular cleaning. When some beancounter decided to save a few dollars by ordering 5.56 ammunition with standard powder, the result was a rifle that jammed like no-one's business, until ammunition quality was sorted, and troops were retrained to clean their weapons properly.

oldzed

Theres a bit more to it than that , The original stoner design was chambered for a modified .220 russian , The 5.56 design came from nato and then stoner altered his design to match .Colt brought the design to mass production while stoner continued working on it with ARMs (Armalite). The jamming was partly caused by the use of roughly chopped nitrocellulose powder instead of ball powders but the bolt carrier and gas mechanism were also to blame . these were later reworked . The original calibre from stoner was acually in .308 this was discontinued due to breakage problems from the recoil . these problems have since been fixed and the Stoner and knights armanent ar10 in .308 are used by delta and the seals as well as some marine recon units along with the M1a . The marines are also trialling the M16 in a new 6.8mm calibre at the moment, case length is 43mm and it will fit in a standard M16 action (rebarreled and different recoil springs and gas plug of course) and initial reports are very good with much improved accuracy and penetration between 400 -600 yards . I think the experience of the long range desert work is starting to show as well as their experiences in afghanistan

civdef

There's a few errors in that oldzed, at least according to this:

http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html (which is a very good shooting site btw).


- 220 Russian was the later commerical name (when it went into production by Sako)for a russian wildcat based on the 7.62x39, which emerged on the world scene in 1962, 222 special was renamed to 223 in 1959, and had been around for years before that. Stoner had produced prototype rifles in 222rem in 1958, and 222special in 1958. The dates don't add up.

NATO didn't adopt 5.56 until 1980, and it was largely American pressure that led to it's adoption, rather than the other way round.