Fianna Fail Begin "Review"

flogen

So Fianna Fail are to start their conference today, where they try and figure what went wrong in the local elections and do what they can to avoid it in the future.

While there are many reasons for their failings in the LE, what do you think they can do to sort themselves out? And most importantly what do you think they will do in an attempt at same?

Sadly I have a bad feeling that the result of this will be more of an image tweak than a policy change. New logo, younger ministers, smiling faces, same failings in transport, housing, drug issues, crime etc. etc.

flogen

Sleipnir

"We're not criminals. Honestly."

lucernarian

originally posted by flogen
Sadly I have a bad feeling that the result of this will be more of an image tweak than a policy change. New logo, younger ministers, smiling faces, same failings in transport, housing, drug issues, crime etc. etc

I dont think that's a fair point as many (not all) of their policies are ok, the problem is they're too incompetent to implement them properly. The PDs dont help with certain issues either.

Unfortunately it probably will be an image change but if we had competent ministers and civil servants things would improve noticeably.

gom

All of FF under the one roof???

Make a line at the said of the podium.
Lone parents, Child Rapers, Child Rapeists, Mother Rapers, Father Rapers, Farmers, People from Limerick, Widows, Immigrants, Immigrant's children who know nothing other than Ireland but aren't Irish legally, All the FF TDs daughters who got the ferry to England for Abortions in the last year, Any women who were butchered by Sregyins in Irish Hospitals, Those abused by their Educators, FG TDs who lost their seat(lol), Cancer patients, Civil Servants, Young Parents, Young Adults who have to move out of Dublin and live over 25 miles from the familty home, students, construction workers whos lives are at risk from cowboy builders, the french(out to linch Charlie for taken their EC seat), Lovers of the Punt, a thousand odd prostitutes who face abuse every day with loss of freedom for some, thousands of teenagers who have a criminal record for consuming cannabis and getting a record for causing no harm to society other than funding a illegal trade which could easily be legalised, everyone earning less than €40,000 a year and trying to support a family while facing HUGE rises in stealth taxes, people with disabilities, Mick McArthy, Roy Keane, Bob Geldof, Homosexuals, Charities, CORI, Unmarried Fathers with no rights to see their children after a seperation, Muslims, Environmentalists, Intellectuals, Skangers, Nigerians, Denis Bradly, Michael Moore, the UN, UNICEF, Jackie Healy-Rae, Smokers, Communters, BDSM activists, Nerds, The Beastie Boys, Sponge Bob Square Pants, Bosco and last speaker Bertie

All of these speakers will have personal views and experiences on why FF is bad for Ireland. Failing that perhaps it is too much to ask for a freak tornado?

lucernarian

I would vehemently disagree with you on 1 or 2 examples but generally youre right. I dont understand some of your examples aswell but some of those issues have nothing to do with FF and those which are are usually caused by incompetence or the PDs i.e Herr Flick and citizenship.

Btw do you actually know any of these surgeons who "butchered"? women in Irish hospitals?

Oh, I just remembered- was it not the FF-Labour government under Albert Reynolds who legalised homosexuality?

gom

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I would vehemently disagree with you on 1 or 2 examples but generally youre right. I dont understand some of your examples aswell but some of those issues have nothing to do with FF and those which are are usually caused by incompetence or the PDs i.e Herr Flick and citizenship.

Btw do you actually know any of these surgeons who "butchered"? women in Irish hospitals?

Oh, I just remembered- was it not the FF-Labour government under Albert Reynolds who legalised homosexuality?

Bosco is up there because he isn't on the air anymore and that is due to RTE inefficency that is a result of an incumbent government relying on Civil Servant votes.
Yes homosexuality was legalised under a FF led government but that was an EU regulation.... Most progressive, socially minded laws in Ireland are a result of EU legislation. Homosexuals still suffer saviour discrimination in ireland today and have no rights to adopt or inhert from and with one another.

Survivors of Symphysiotomy I'm sure have much to say about having their pelvises sawed in half instead of a caesaerian section...

As for the PD influence on government. It is Bertie(FF) who appoints his ministers. Forgetting the PDs. Martin Cullen(arguibly as right as McDowell), McCreevy(a gombin if ever), Mary Coughlan(no pension for widows), Noel Dempsey(FuUUck off and DIE students - we want factory labour straight from school), Biffo(Shannon - US Airbase), Brennan (non-integrated Network), Hannifin ( over stating Knowledge economy Ireland), FF MEPs for voting with the facists in the European Parliment, FF for pushing the EU Intellectual patient even after the EU Parliment rejected it twice.
FF strongly supported the Racist referendum as over the last 10 years it entertained the ignorance of the nation and promoted irrational anti-immigrant policies even now when we need as much labour as we can get.
The best policy it did to further the populist hatred was allow asylum seekers sit on their ass and ban them from working...
Lets not forget all the planning tribunals i left out

flogen

Fianna fail do have good policies, and are certainly most lacking in the competency spectre. However, things like transport are badly planned from the beginning. Also, they should be putting pressure on certain groups to use funding properly (such as the FAI, OCI and RTE) as well as following up on the promises made years ago.As has been pointed out, their policies as regards homosexual couples right to marriage or adoption are terrible too, although thats no big surprise as they would hate to anger hardline catholics.
They did well with things like the smoking ban, IMO, but thats about the only policy they've implimented which I agreed with, and which has had a favourable effect on the country (again, IMO)

and the PD's suck.

flogen

lucernarian

We wont go into the validity of the policies but allowing homosexuals to adopt children would be opposed by more than just hardline catholics.

Sorry about that, I was thinking of Dr. Neary and caesarian hysterectomies.

What is wrong anyway with the grass roots level of FF? They shouldn't expect a facelift to rejuvinate their poll results. But pointing the finger at one's self is something that most Irish politicians do not do.

uncivilservant

gom wrote:

Bosco is up there because he isn't on the air anymore and that is due to RTE inefficency that is a result of an incumbent government relying on Civil Servant votes.

Pardon?

Cork

flogen wrote:

Fianna fail do have good policies

Yes they have. They have also lowered personal taxation and put many people back to work.

But much is to be done in health. This stste invests much in medical schools and consultants should do more for public patients.

Better Value for money needs to be gotten for our tax money.

Some semi state companys need reform instead of passing on price increases to the consumer.

But overall, no Irish government has been more successful. People no longer have to travel to the US to get jobs. People are no longer taxed to the hilt.

Health needs reform big time & hard decisions need to be taken. Time for strategic reports have passed. We need action.

But the government needs to stress its many achievements. The sad thinhg is that many opposed to current government policies lack credable alternative policies.

A 69% tax rate, baby bonds etc? the stuff of nonsense.

frodi

Are you a FF Uberfurher or what?
FF were in power for more than 20 of the last 25 years. Many of these problems are ones that they have created themselves.
Income tax might be low but at what cost. Practically every public service is under funded. Schools, hospitals, transport, special needs children. Never mind all the stealth taxes.
They are too busy governing to suit their friend and supporters, they have forgotten that there is a whole country and non-FF voters that they have to govern for as well. It's a real winner takes all and feck the rest of ye attitude.
How many special needs kids have to go without proper education to build Punchestown?
:mad:

Cork

frodi wrote:

It's a real winner takes all and feck the rest of ye attitude.
How many special needs kids have to go without proper education to build Punchestown?
:mad:

Does the Irish race horse industry deserve facilities? Where did the horse "Waterford Crystal" come from?

Name another Irish government that has invested more in education or special needs facilities?

There is none. No Irish government has invested more in health, education, infrastructure or social welfare.

There is a special needs facility near me that has superb facilities. It is a centre of excellence.

Sarky

So they invested more. Did they get results with that money?

flogen

Cork, stop blaming the semi state bodies and the industries and everyone else, and please for the love of Gandhi don't mis quote me.

You just ignored everything I said except "Fianna Fail have good policies", leaving out my comments of incompetency, and their political failings. Answer those points.

Fianna Fail know they have problems somewhere, and its not all image (although, as I said, that is bound to be the only outcome of this review). As was said on newstalk, Sinn Fein operate with military persision (I know, its an unfortunate phrase!), if you have a problem and tell them, they get to work on it. I'm sure we've all heard a story or two about their vigilante tactics (sorry, rumoured vigilante tactics...), but they also do their best to sort out problems. They are, in my experience the most visible and vocal party on a local level. I still wouldnt vote for them, but if it was between FF and SF, I know what box I'd tick. It is also said that SF have paid workers at grass roots, the ones who canvas, and deal with the public, rather than volunteers. SF took on Mary Lou McDonald, an ex-FF party member, and got her elected to the EU first time around, why couldnt FF do this??
In my experience of FF on a local level, they were terrible. One candidate called around, and was nice, and friendly enough. Out of the other two, one told me he was running because someone else asked him to, he then listed off things that had been done in the area 5 years ago, skipped telling me what he was going to do, and told me he'd appreciate my vote. I told him he didnt deserve it. The third didnt even call, a canvaser knocked and told me to vote for her.
Now guess who out of the three got in? Guess what happened to two of them?
Gerry Adams sent me a letter 2 days before the election, as it was my first time to vote. Obviously it wasnt a personalised letter, but it was made to look it. He listed off all their achievments, and said he hoped I could help them to make Ireland better etc. etc. A novel approach, and one I'm suer worked in many houses.

FF have gotten complacent, and forgotten they have to do something for the vote. The public are also starting to realise just how incompetent the party is in government

/rant

flogen

flogen

Cork wrote:

Name another Irish government that has invested more in education or special needs facilities?

There is none. No Irish government has invested more in health, education, infrastructure or social welfare.

There is a special needs facility near me that has superb facilities. It is a centre of excellence.

FF are lucky enough to be in government at a boom time, so they can afford to put more money in. What were parties supposed to do in the 70s and 80s?

Also, saying they put more in is a mis-conception. Its like them raising the minimum wage. They put more in, but the money isnt worth as much as it was 5 years ago. They rise the minimum wage, but now it costs a more to get food, pay rent, travel etc. etc.

flogen

bonkey

Cork wrote:

Does the Irish race horse industry deserve facilities?

You used the word yourself and all, Cork, which should answer that question.
Its an industry - it should fund its own facilities.

Name another Irish government that has invested more in education or special needs facilities?

And that makes its underfunding acceptable?

No Irish government has invested more in health, education, infrastructure or social welfare.

No irish government, therefore, has squandered more in health. You yourself, I believe, will admit (have admitted?) its in terrible shape and that the solution is not to throw more money stupidly at it.

As for education...isn't the problem there that they have spent massively on third-level education, to the detriment of first- and second-level?

Infrastructure?

My initial reaction would be that I'm actually reasonably impressed. Given that I'm only back in Ireland once every so often, I get to see a lot of improvements in one bunch, so to speak, I have noticed significant improvemens.

On further reflection (as long as the above paragraph took to write), I would also have to point out that the government's infrastructural projects seem to have a tendency to run significantly over-budget - the LUAS being a case in point.

There is a special needs facility near me that has superb facilities. It is a centre of excellence.

Which in no way indicates the quality of the rest of the system, nor whether or not there are sufficient facilities for all those who should have them, though...does it?

jc

frodi

Cork wrote:

Does the Irish race horse industry deserve facilities? Where did the horse "Waterford Crystal" come from?

Name another Irish government that has invested more in education or special needs facilities?

There is none. No Irish government has invested more in health, education, infrastructure or social welfare.

There is a special needs facility near me that has superb facilities. It is a centre of excellence.

give money to a tax free industry or to a special needs child? No brainer.

Name ANY irish govt that has invested properly in special needs education!
I must tell my two children with special needs that FF has invested in special needs. We cannot even get a date for assessments! :mad:
So far we have spent (well spent IMO) over €2K in getting assessments. Even with this we cannot get appointments with the relevent places so that they can get the resources they need.
If there is a special needs facility near you ring them up and find out how long you have to wait for an assessment and then how long to get treatment/resources.
F*ck all done, everything still to do! :mad:

sceptre

Cork wrote:

Does the Irish race horse industry deserve facilities? Where did the horse "Waterford Crystal" come from?

Germany

Sired in Germany, Landgraf I was his daddy & Hans Rosenau was his breeder. Ulme XVI was his mammy & while I don't know anything about that mare, I doubt she's been running around in the middle of Tipperary (or rather, Meath) much, though I'll happily be corrected. Brought over about four years ago as a nine-year-old ('discovered' by Dietmar Gugler). edit: The Olympics have been a bit of a showcase for the German horse industry - 32 of the 77 horses in the individual competition were bred there.

Cork

bonkey wrote:

You used the word yourself and all, Cork, which should answer that question.
Its an industry - it should fund its own facilities.


And that makes its underfunding acceptable?
jc

Nothing makes under funding acceptable. But throwing money at badly organised public services is pointless.

To their credit this government has taken a strategic view to both pensions and health and not a short term political viewpoint.

Many industrys in this country are supported by government grants and low taxation. In fact the horse breeding industry gets similar treatment in many EU countries.

We are not the exception as a country. This governments main achievement was supporting employment. It has out performed many sluggish EU economies.

Flukey

Probably the most important thing they should do is to lget their people to listen, to each other and to all of the electorate. Then come up with policies to address the issues that are out threre and get the right people to implement them. The upcoming reshuffle should be very interesting.

marco murphy

Will sinn fein be in power in a few years? a lot of peole i know say so

Cork

The upcoming reshuffle should be very interesting. I believe Mary Hanafin, Brian Lenihan, Mary Coughlan, Brian Cowen, Dermot Ahern, Noel Dempsey, Michael Martin are all pretty capable.

But I would love to see Liz o Donnell back.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

Nothing makes under funding acceptable. But throwing money at badly organised public services is pointless.

Then why were you pointing out that the current government has spent more on health care than anyone else as if it were a good thing.

Pointless is a far more honest description of it.

To their credit this government has taken a strategic view to both pensions and health and not a short term political viewpoint.

Whats the strategic view with health then Cork? Throw so much money at it that there can be no doubt whatsoever that you're just wasting money? Then throw some more at it, to be sure. Then add a bit more. Then talk about some reforms....which will cost money, not save it.....

Highly strategic if you ask me.

As for McGreedy's "strategic" view on pensions....has he even got to the point where the balance there that equals the amount invested yet? Good idea turned into a strategic waste of money so far.

In fact the horse breeding industry gets similar treatment in many EU countries.

Oh well that must make it right then.

This governments main achievement was supporting employment. It has out performed many sluggish EU economies.[/QUOTE]

And what matter if that money could be better used keeping our primary/secondary education systems functioning well. Who cares if special needs children are just left to suffer. Sure, as long as the current voters have good jobs, and are promised that something is being done to give them a pension...who gives a donkey's ass about the impact all of this focus on supporting employment may have in a generation or two.

jc

lucernarian

This is somewhat off-topic, but I feel that when people say "special needs children", they only consider intellectually or physically disabled children. Special Needs Children are exactly that. Any child that needs special care and attention for any reason.

I have heard stories about Brian Cowen, I personally don't trust him.

As someone said to me the other day, what's the point in reshuffling a pack of jokers? I'm saddened to see that FF are so blatantly a danger unto themselves. They are shooting themsevles in the foot by their foolishness.

Cork

bonkey wrote:

Whats the strategic view with health then Cork? Throw so much money at it that there can be no doubt whatsoever that you're just wasting money? Then throw some more at it, to be sure. Then add a bit more. Then talk about some reforms....which will cost money, not save it.....

Highly strategic if you ask me.

As for McGreedy's "strategic" view on pensions....has he even got to the point where the balance there that equals the amount invested yet? Good idea turned into a strategic waste of money so far.

The pensions point first. By providing for future penions - Charlie McCreevy has taken a long term view of the pensions requirement of this state.

Stock Markets are bouncing back and funds invested were for the long term not for shorter periods.

Now Health - Every government throws money at problems. Cheque Book politics has been around for many years. Money is and has been wasted.

What has now been done is to comission reports on how best to organise health and optimise resourses.

vested Interests in Health will have to be taken on. Parish pump politics with regards to health is often played.

But the various health reports need to be implemented and they deserve the rsources to be implemented.

(ASAP).

Cork

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I have heard stories about Brian Cowen, I personally don't trust him.

As someone said to me the other day, what's the point in reshuffling a pack of jokers?.

I have heard stories about many politicians but hear say is nothing more than sordid gossip.

Are pack of jokers cards available? There is much talent in both FF and the PDs.

These people put themselves before the electorate and got themseves elected.

There is a special needs facility that I actually know of that provides pre-school, school, adult day and residential services together with respite care and home support. It also has a workshop,canteen facilities, gaden centre, bakery and shop.

It is a centre of excellence and I feel that credit should be given to all involved. Many of whom are not politicians.

oscarBravo

Cork wrote:

These people put themselves before the electorate

'nuff said, methinks.

lucernarian

I will not discuss why I dont trust him here as that is not relevant. You cant comment on what I said as you know absolutely nothing about what led me to that conclusion. I did/do not spread rumors about him or anyone else for that matter, I was merely stating my feelings about him and the basic reason why.

FF have talent with regards ideas, not implementation.

You didnt get the point of my message about "special needs" children. I meant that children with advanced intellectual ability are utterly neglected by the Government in every way, when they also have special needs.

I was quoting someone else with regards the "pack of jokers" remark. That was a person's view on the party. In a way I agree with him as what is the point of moving ministers to another post if they start to gain experience in the original area? The Government should place the best minister for a post there as soon as they go into power.

Cork

To_be_confirmed wrote:

The Government should place the best minister for a post there as soon as they go into power.

But in every organisation, bringing in new people with fresh ideas may be worthwhile.

But I agree with you (I could give you examples) that spending minor amounts of money could make big improvements into the lives of people.

But the government has done well with the economy which is not too common across the EU.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

The pensions point first. By providing for future penions - Charlie McCreevy has taken a long term view of the pensions requirement of this state.

You're missing the point Cork. McCreevy has tried to provide for future pensions, just like FF tried to solve the health issues by throwing vast quantities of good money after bad.

To date, McCreevy's plan has not been a success, and there are no shortage of critics who also make cases that the economics themselves don't make good sense - that the government should invest differently, and/or should not tie themselves into a fixed annual contribution whether they can afford it or not.

Maybe it will pan out, but simply offering a platitude like "he's taking the long-term view" doesn't make me feel any more secure, because it doesn't offer any reassurance that its a sensible, practical or workable long-term view....just that its a viwe we're going to have to wait a long time to find out how successful it is.

To date, its been a disaster because McCreevy chose a risky method of investment which spectacularly failed to work.

And while it may be only a short-term loss (albeit one we could possibly have avoided), it raises the awkward question of what we will do in future years that also get hammered. If this money is supposed to fund pensions, what do we do in the years where the stock-market takes a comparablely large hammering (say 20% or more) at the end of a boom period, and we end up losing money that we had already budgeted to be spent.

Look - its a simple law of economics that return is commensurate with risk. McCreevy decided that to fund our future pensions, the right thing to do was to invest in a relatively-more-risky proposition than would normally be done. Straight away, he rolled snake-eyes and got stung badly.

Now the FF-supporting platitude is that such little blips are nothing to really worry about, because in the long run its gonna work out. Wrong - in the long run, the risk remains, and we can get stung again. We have no control over when we get stung, nor to what extent.

Our government may budget some years down the line, reckoning that there is now X in the pension fund, only to discover a week later that its X/3. And remember - the longer we stay in the game, teh more we stand to lose each time we get hit.

To paraphrase what someone else just said....a good idea, but a dodgy implementation in my opinion.

Now Health - Every government throws money at problems. Cheque Book politics has been around for many years. Money is and has been wasted.

So I ask you again...why did you list FF throwing more money on health than anyone else as a good thing???

Thats all I want to know...not whether or not they have finally copped on and are doing it right (which is still highly debateable)....but why you listed their waste as a good thing.

jc

frodi

Cork wrote:

But in every organisation, bringing in new people with fresh ideas may be worthwhile.

But I agree with you (I could give you examples) that spending minor amounts of money could make big improvements into the lives of people.

But the government has done well with the economy which is not too common across the EU.

Spending a little money isn't the problem. You need people with ability, not in the position because they are a vote winner in their area or that they brought in a running mate. Most of the FF ministers are just journey men/women rather than real leaders/managers. This goes right to the top, Bertie couldn't take a hard decision to save his life. He reminds me of the quote, " there goes the mob, I must follow for I am their leader."