All-In Pre-Flop

brianon

Just wondering what people here think about going all-in (or calling all-in) pre-flop.

I was playing a 10 person $10 tournament last night on Ladbrokes and was down to last 5. Was chip leader with around 5,000.
Dealt KdKh and one guy goes all-in with around 2500. Everyone folds and I called. He showed As2s. He managed to make a straight on the river with K to beat my trips. This took half my stack and eventually I went out in 5th!
Should I have folded ? I thought it was a) good oppurtunity to remove a player and b) good oppurtunity to win some chips.

Do many here go all-in pre-flop or call pre-flop all-in bets ?
Seems to happen 'so' much on Ladbrokes (don't really play anywhere else) and seems like a lottery. Getting sick and tired of being beaten like this. Is it time to stop calling all-in bets even with great hands pre-flop ?

Cheers.

DeVore

You cant have the stone cold nuts preflop. Even aces get cracked. If you arent going to call with Kings then all I have to do is go all in on every hand and you will always back off. You have to call and a large majority of the time you'll be right. If that isnt enough for you, you're playing the wrong game

DeV.

Hectorjelly

If you fold here then No Limit poker isnt the right game for you.

Hyzepher

You did the right thing in my opinion. As2S is a big underdog and you were unfortunate that they didn't hold up.

All-in play is a big part of NLH and its the move that sets it apart from Pot Limit - its more common than you think

Hyzepher

Iago

it depends on a number of factors

how many players?
what's your stack?
what have you picked up about the other players?
what's your table reputation?
what's your position?

etc, etc...

in the case you've mentioned above you have to call, 5 players left a smaller stack goes all-in, possibly on a steal, and the only hand he could have to be ahead of you is AA.

What are the odds of AA and KK being dealt in a 5 handed game,
(I'm sure Dev will have a mathematical answer for this, involving various calculations and the position of the sun on the 15th day of the month when you're wearing a blue shirt )

but I would simply say pretty low, you made the right call, you were unlucky but eventually playing against players like that you will get paid.

As for how often I do it, it depends on all the factors above really, I wouldn't say I do it a lot, others here will probably say I do it too often

just my 2c

Hyzepher

Is that the 2 of clubs Iago?

Iago

oh well if it was the 2 of clubs that's a different story!

Samson

How did things finish last night Chris?

Iago

actually now that I think of it I called waylanders all-in last night with A2o...

he had k3o and got a k on the flop but I hit an A on the river...

Best to discount my advice altogether I think!

brianon

Hyzepher wrote:

You did the right thing in my opinion. As2S is a big underdog and you were unfortunate that they didn't hold up.

All-in play is a big part of NLH and its the move that sets it apart from Pot Limit - its more common than you think

Hyzepher

Yeah I guess its just hard to swallow when its goes against you.
In the long run etc...

Does anyone here play pot-limit instead of no-limit ?
I've heard that pot-limit is supposed to be the purer form ?!

Iago

we tried playing pot limit a couple of weeks ago, it was supposed to be a €1 blind game and there wasn't a single pot with less than €70-€80 in it, I'm not sure we've got the idea of it yet

Marq

brianon wrote:

I've heard that pot-limit is supposed to be the purer form ?!

HERESY! It's a totally different game, but No-Limit is the purest form of poker in my opinon. somewhat subjective though. many of us would play pot-limit omaha as that's what's offered in the fitz cash games.

Often you find that the nature of pot-limit won't allow you to get all your chips in before the flop, but with a couple of players in the pot it's easy enough after it. the difference is mainly in pre-flop play. It affects the importance of certain positions as well.

Waylander

Iago wrote:

actually now that I think of it I called waylanders all-in last night with A2o...

he had k3o and got a k on the flop but I hit an A on the river...

Best to discount my advice altogether I think!

In my defence I was big blind, can't remember what they were at but they were high enough, and I figured he was on the steal. I was right, he was, but I had nothing to defend my stack with. I was heading towards short stacked but my all in more then doubled Iago's bet. I was hoping for a fold but Iago made a very good call.

Hyzepher

Samson wrote:

How did things finish last night Chris?

Ended up myself and DapperGent as last 2 and we did a deal.

Hyzepher

Iago

Hyzepher wrote:

Ended up myself and DapperGent as last 2 and we did a deal.

Hyzepher

congrats to you both, well played, was there many in at the end?

Waylander
In my defence I was big blind, can't remember what they were at but they were high enough, and I figured he was on the steal. I was right, he was, but I had nothing to defend my stack with. I was heading towards short stacked but my all in more then doubled Iago's bet. I was hoping for a fold but Iago made a very good call.

I almost folded it, a lot of things conspired against you, it was about the 5th time in the game you had raised big or gone over the top preflop without having to show cards.

I had already raised it to 3 times the blind, so was commited to a certain extent.

Your bet doubled mine but the extra was less than a quarter of my remaining stack.

I didn't put you on a high pair, either a low pair or KJ, K10 something like that

We were 4 handed and I had a get out of jail free card, i.e. my Ace

timing, timing, timing

DapperGent

Hyzepher wrote:

Ended up myself and DapperGent as last 2 and we did a deal.

I think it's important for everyone to know that I got the sweeter part of the deal.

Me and girlfriend this morning:

"Won a bit last night."

"Oh good. You can put that towards your half of [boring expensive thing]."

Girls are shít.

Hyzepher

DapperGent wrote:

I think it's important for everyone to know that I got the sweeter part of the deal.

Nemesis always do.

Me and girlfriend this morning:
"Won a bit last night."
"Oh good. You can put that towards your half of [boring expensive thing]."

Girls are shít.

Some tips:
1)Are you sure it was a girl?
2)Always take some off the top?
3)Try and lose to me

Hyzepher

Juan Pablo

My mate Gav finished up in third last night. Was gonna come in but got caught up in a Pot limit Omaha tourney on UB. Wound up winning it but didn't get done till 10.30, final table alone lasted over an hour and a half with short stacks getting lucky and the like.

Lucky Face Cnuts, making me miss the 20 in, why i oughta.... :mad:

DapperGent

Hyzepher wrote:

2)Always take some off the top?

Suggestion noted.

3)Try and lose to me

I quite distinctly remember doubling you through. Also I think I knocked out 6th, 4th and 3rd. This is the thanks I get.

DeVore

Bollox! Should have done that SuitedAces deal last night hahahah.
Went from huge stack to medium stack to small stack to out in the space of about 20 minutes at the 2/400 level. Very very irritating. Lots of decent starting hands and no flops to match

Pot Limit is very different to NL... a number of hands change radically (almost all pocket pairs drop dramatically in value for example). Any hand that likes to see a flop improves relative to those that DONT want to see a flop (like 99 or TT) too.

Finally, AA vs KK in a 5 way game? You have 5 shots at getting either AA (or KK), thats 5 (number of hands) * 2 (we are looking for either AA or KK) * 1 / 220 (I'm taking 1:220 as the odds for a specific pair for simplicity). Once you have landed either the AA or KK in a hand, you need one of the other 4 hands hands to have the other one. 4*1/220
Since both events have to occur in the same hand you simply multiply the odds and get about 40 : 48400
Thats about once in 1210 deals. This is all off the top of my head (and something is niggling me about that calc) but as Iago says, you dont really need to know the specifics, just that its very very unlikely.

DeV.

Marq

DeVore wrote:

something is niggling me about that calc.

six ways of making aces, six ways of making kings. Heads up:
4/52*4/51*3/50*3/49 = 45120/1

[edit]5-handed, any two players: 20/52*16/51*3/50*3/49 = 2256/1[/edit]