Thinking of moving from perm to contract (Java)

JJJonsey

Hi there

Im new here so be gentle

Anyone on here contracting in Java/software development?

Im thinking of going contracting to a) earn more money b) gain a broader spread of experience with different clients etc

Any advice appreciated

Jonsey

JJJonsey

Nobody? Take it thats a bad sign then lol

elivsvonchiaing

In today's marketplace I would haveto say don't even dream of contracting unless you have a multiple skill-set. E.g. Java + Oracle + VB + SQL server. Four (useful) skills should be sufficient.

Unless of course your happy to work in Iraq or somewhere equally desireable.

JJJonsey

Thanks for the comments.. i'd rather see "dont do it!" comments than yeah go for it ones..

Are you contracting yourself?

My skills set (stuff im strongest in) comprises Java (pure/jsp/servlets/JavaMail/JDBC/Tomcat), SQL (mysql, sql server7/2k), ASP(IIS4/5) and ColdFusion 5/MX, so I've a mix.

Its interesting you say that a combo would be wise - i'd have taken this as a given surely? Do people really go/get-away-with contract with just one skill?

Forgive the (probably neive) questions...

elivsvonchiaing

JJJonsey wrote:

Thanks for the comments.. i'd rather see "dont do it!" comments than yeah go for it ones..

Are you contracting yourself?

My skills set (stuff im strongest in) comprises Java (pure/jsp/servlets/JavaMail/JDBC/Tomcat), SQL (mysql, sql server7/2k), ASP(IIS4/5) and ColdFusion 5/MX, so I've a mix.

Its interesting you say that a combo would be wise - i'd have taken this as a given surely? Do people really go/get-away-with contract with just one skill?

Forgive the (probably neive) questions...

Have been since 1994, interrupted for 2 years by a permananent role.

Your looking good with your skill-set, but it appears to be all web-based - I'm not confident there won't be a dip in the market here again.

What I would suggest is do a bit of development at home in VB - fish for some more advanced VB on the net study it, play with it, until you know enough to get by developing boring stand-alone apps for someone. Shouldn't take too long... (VB6)

Or learn .NET architecture inside-out at home and play around with each language. Ashamed to admit I haven't done this yet

They did in 1998-1999 until 2000. Loads of COBOL programmers left permanent jobs to go contracting in Y2K work. Some of these are now to be seen on Grafton Street entertaining people

Maybe Oracle dbas get away with it - hardly counts as one skill though.

JJJonsey

Thanks again for the advice

I know a little VB - enough to build desktop apps but tbh I don't really want to go down that path... given the choice i'd aim for some j2ee work. Good to keep your options open though.

With regard to your comment about leanring stuff at home.. at what point would you consider that you are expert enough to actually accept a contract for that skill? I can pick technical stuff up real quick, but until i get my first contract I don't really know what to expect.. I contract before in 2000 in ASP and didn't even know what ASP was going into the contract, but the guy employed me on the back of my VB experience and a promise that i'd pick it up quick 'guv - can contractors still get away with that? Im not for a minute suggesting that i'll bu11**** my way into a contract, but on the other hand i dont claim to know everything about say, J2EE either.

Im currently getting stuck into j2ee and also the cloudscape database server from IBM, figuring it can't hurt.

Thanks for your advice and apologies for the ramble!!!

elivsvonchiaing

JJJonsey wrote:

Thanks again for the advice

I know a little VB - enough to build desktop apps but tbh I don't really want to go down that path... given the choice i'd aim for some j2ee work. Good to keep your options open though.

Can well understand that - but if it's to pay the rent/mortgage and is not "nice" work - you don't have take more than a 3 month contract. (Assuming here you don't start off like this - but simply forced to at the end of a contract).

JJJonsey wrote:

With regard to your comment about leanring stuff at home.. at what point would you consider that you are expert enough to actually accept a contract for that skill? I can pick technical stuff up real quick, but until i get my first contract I don't really know what to expect.. I contract before in 2000 in ASP and didn't even know what ASP was going into the contract, but the guy employed me on the back of my VB experience and a promise that i'd pick it up quick 'guv - can contractors still get away with that? Im not for a minute suggesting that i'll bu11**** my way into a contract, but on the other hand i dont claim to know everything about say, J2EE either.

At what point - well when I know the basics and the websites, (and how they are organised) to pick up the best code examples from.

You have the contractor mindset by the sound of it. If your confident you can pick up something quickly and demonstate it in your work - this will impress.

As a stranger (to the employer) no. You probably need the real skill to pass the technical interview - but if there isn't one - and you're confident/know while they may have their doubts about you in week one by week two you will impress, then go for it.

If the employer already knows you - i.e. a place you've worked already and have impressed there - might be no harm checking if they've a contract position you could "train" yourself into - but this would still have to be quite quick. You'll have former colleagues there that will resent you (for coming back as a contractor) and will be going to your boss: "In a whole month the guy has produced sfa!". You still may have to be thick-skinned at times to survive in such an environment though.

JJJonsey wrote:

Im currently getting stuck into j2ee and also the cloudscape database server from IBM, figuring it can't hurt.

Thanks for your advice and apologies for the ramble!!!

That's the spirit!

One last word of advice. Take a lower rate for a longer contract starting out (again). If you can make 70% more contracting, signing up for 12 months, your better-off than if you can make 100% more signing for three and there isn't a renewal.

JJJonsey

Great advice and insight here and I really appreciate it..

I figured that taking a lower rate just to get in the door would be a good move.. So long as I make at least the same as am I currently (as a permie) I don't mind too much, provided I get the broad mix that i'm looking for. Of course, a few extra "bob" would be oh so nice

I figure i'd be best off working through an umbrella company for the first few months, just till I find my feet. If I decide to contract full time then I will think about setting up as a sole trader. What do you think about this approach is it sensible?

RicardoSmith

Most agencies insist that you are a limited company, or work under an unbrella. You don't "have" to do that legally. But its often an agency rule. Its costs more to do this than working as a sole trader. The umbrella company routes is the least cost efficent, but the easiest way to do it. If you can get back to back contracts fine. But if you can't, you'll need to be earning more on contract to cover the downtime between contracts. Also it usually takes anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks before you'll get your first paycheck. So make sure you have some money in the bank to cover this. If you end up waiting a few weeks to get a contract and they they pay late, its not unusual to be 2.5 months with out any money comming in. Which is another reason why you need to be getting paid more than in a perm job. Especially if you have rent, mortgage or a family to feed. Also you don't get paid for sick days, or holidays, so either you have insurance to cover these periods or again you need to earn more than in a perm job. Then you have to cover your own training and certification....

Most companies don't care who you are once you can do the job. So personally I wouldn't lower your rate to get experience. All that says is that you are cheap. Contracts are usually of a fixed duration. So it won't become longer if you are cheaper, or shorter if you are more expensive. They'll give you a timeframe for the project. End of story. Sometimes you get a rolling contract but thats less common for development projects. Support roles are more likely to be rolling.

HaVoC

hey guys just wondering when did ya make the leap from Permanent position to Contracting how many years experience did ya have under yeah're belts etc

RicardoSmith

HaVoC wrote:

hey guys just wondering when did ya make the leap from Permanent position to Contracting how many years experience did ya have under yeah're belts etc

It depends what you are doing. For a development role you'd need to have 3yrs+ in my opinion.

elivsvonchiaing

HaVoC wrote:

hey guys just wondering when did ya make the leap from Permanent position to Contracting how many years experience did ya have under yeah're belts etc

Me was after 4 years development experience. Agree with Ricardo. However, I do know people contracting (and successful) with under 3 years - probably exception to rule.

JJJonsey

As was said already, it really depends on what you've been doing, as well as how thoroughly you know a technology etc

Measuring someones experience in number of years is something of a pet dislike of mine and, IMHO, can in no way be a sole indicator of someones abilities to do a job. More important (IMO!) are the kinds of projects a person was involved with and at what level.

Just my €0.02

RicardoSmith

JJJonsey wrote:

As was said already, it really depends on what you've been doing, as well as how thoroughly you know a technology etc

Measuring someones experience in number of years is something of a pet dislike of mine and, IMHO, can in no way be a sole indicator of someones abilities to do a job. More important (IMO!) are the kinds of projects a person was involved with and at what level.

Just my €0.02

Its a standard metric. Just like exams and certificates. You have to qualify it with other tests, like interviews and trial periods. Usually on a contract they have a few weeks get out if you turn out to be rubbish, they show you the door. On my current contract they let one guy go after a month. Despite having years of experience, he was useless. Lots of knowledge but lacked the sense to apply it.

elivsvonchiaing

RicardoSmith wrote:

Its a standard metric. Just like exams and certificates. You have to qualify it with other tests, like interviews and trial periods. Usually on a contract they have a few weeks get out if you turn out to be rubbish, they show you the door. On my current contract they let one guy go after a month. Despite having years of experience, he was useless. Lots of knowledge but lacked the sense to apply it.

This for me sums up what contracting is all about... In a permenant role you're mediochre colleague knows how to rub the boss up the right way or play bridge/tennis/golf whatever together or something. You are clearly far superior job-wise. You don't get recognition.

The beauty of contracting is if you're good - you get renewed - (unless the company is going down the tubes).

In a nutshell contracting "mainly" removes you from the HR bullsh1t loop! You do have to know you're good before starting on this route.

Good=ability to quickly embrace new business models, programming languages, databases. E.g. SQL-Server - Oracle in one month (Development not DBA). I've seen it done.

RicardoSmith

Can't agree with that. These days. Its a means to reduce costs. As a contractor for 3-4 months is cheaper than a permanent employee. Most of the people I know that were contracting have got out of it. The rates are well down on what they used to be. You need to be getting at least twice a permanent rate for it to be worth while.

RicardoSmith

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

...Oracle in one month (Development not DBA). I've seen it done.

Which explains the dire state of most companies Oracle databases.

JJJonsey

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Good=ability to quickly embrace new business models, programming languages, databases. E.g. SQL-Server - Oracle in one month (Development not DBA). I've seen it done.

I can believe it - i've done it myself, though not Oracle, and the client was more than happy to up the rate with each renewal which proved to me that 'employers' are more than willing to hang on to decent folk. True, its probably for the most part about cutting costs and being able to let people go i.e. having a more dynamic and scalable workforce, but there also the aspect that if people don't work out you can get rid of 'em easier and quicker.

RicardoSmith wrote:

Which explains the dire state of most companies Oracle databases.

Not necessarilly - the ability to cross train rapidly from one RDBMS to another or from one OO language to another is what makes a good developer/programmer/softwareware engineer/whatever IMHO. The syntax etc may be different but the ideas and principles are largely the same.

Personally the reason I want to get back into contracting is not just for the money anyway, but the experience of working at different companies, on a much wider range of projects than I would were am I currently.

RicardoSmith

JJJonsey wrote:

....Not necessarilly - the ability to cross train rapidly from one RDBMS to another or from one OO language to another is what makes a good developer/programmer/softwareware engineer/whatever IMHO. The syntax etc may be different but the ideas and principles are largely the same.
....

...ability to cross train rapidly ...Ideas and principles???

Have you heard of many contracts where they trained the contractors or allowed them the time to pick something up? Defeats the whole purpose of hiring them in the first place!

Also why hire a contractor without that specific experience when you can hire a Oracle expert in the first place? Doesn't make sense.

JJJonsey

So sorry what i've said is a little ambiguous I admit.

When I said cross-train I didn't mean that the employer should stump up the time but that an individual who for example, knows J2EE inside out could easilly pick up .Net to a level where they would be competent enough to work in it. In other words, "one" could crosstrain ones self at ones leisure to a level whereby they feel comfortable enough to say "I know that".

However as an employer I would expect that if I hired a contractor to carry out skill X and we later found out that we needed skills X.2 with a little bit of Y & Z, well i'd hope that the engineer i'd hired had the nouse to pick up those skills without any hassle, within reason, because "the ideas and principles are largely the same".

RicardoSmith

So how long do you think it would take an expert C++ programmer to become an expert Java programmer. Or a MS SQL expert become a Oracle expert?

JJJonsey

Dunno - how longs a piece of string?

I'd say an 'expert' Java web developer would struggle to learn C++ desktop app development in any meaningful timeframe.

However, expert ASP developer to expert JSP developer? I'd expect them to cross over pretty damn quick actually.

RicardoSmith

Never seen it happen myself. Not when contracting. You there to do a specific job on a specific budget. The scenerio where you'd need a contractor, to do something other than whats in the contract would be pretty rare.

JJJonsey

I know, and in fairness we're talking about two different things here.

First is the ability of somebody to cross train themselves in order improve their marketability and second is the ability of a person to improvise on their existing skillset during an engagement in order to meet the needs of the client.

Magic_Roundabou

Can I just ask a question that is bugging me at the moment ?? When you move from permie to contract, how do you get around the one month ( or whatever ) notice problem. All the contract jobs I've investigated want you to start the next day. If you are in perm work, you are hamstrung by your notice.

Would love to hear any suggestions about how to get around this. Only way I can see is get lucky with a contract that will wait a few weeks or quit the perm job in the hope that you'll pick up a contract ( yikes !!! ).

RicardoSmith

Anyone that asks you to start the next day has no idea how to run a project.

Remember that most agencies take an age to pay. So you can be 6-8 weeks before you get your first pay check. So the contract rates need to be high enough so they cover that period and any down time between contracts.

Contracting is great if you are getting rates of 200-400+ a day. Anything less than that and its not worth it.

elivsvonchiaing

Magic_Roundabou wrote:

Can I just ask a question that is bugging me at the moment ?? When you move from permie to contract, how do you get around the one month ( or whatever ) notice problem. All the contract jobs I've investigated want you to start the next day. If you are in perm work, you are hamstrung by your notice.

Would love to hear any suggestions about how to get around this. Only way I can see is get lucky with a contract that will wait a few weeks or quit the perm job in the hope that you'll pick up a contract ( yikes !!! ).

I was required to start next day and I explained it would be a problem. As I recall I got away with about 2 weeks notice + holidays amounting to a month.

The last thing they want is that you walk period. With no handover. So negotiation is possible here imho. Just make sure you have the holidays for HR to buy it!

TheWanderer

Gents,

An interesting discussion - I'm returning to the workforce in Ireland after almost 10 years contracting abroad, I've got 5 years Java experience server side and client side. I had a look on some job sites but most are very vague on the rate and I don't want to price myself too high or low. I'm just wondering what sort of rate I should be aiming for? Is the market picking up or still very slow?

Regards,

TW