Karma, Sutra & Lisdúnbhéarna

elivsvonchiaing

Not sure if this post is appropriate here - can't think appropriate in after-hours - only other possibility imho.

Here we go... I just went to a particularly poignant funeral - and came to the conclusion that you are trapped into your religion unless you have no family - or are trapped to your religion by belief. I think all religion is at least 90% crap - including the ones that will issue a fatwah upon me should I mention them.

I'm not an outright atheist ( but I think my views and thoughts would be regarded as such by some). To clarify I'm not a nihilist - Spinoza/Einstein make sense to me - but I think its more complex than that.

The point being:I feel my beliefs are my own- If I ever have kids (that survive me) I want them brought up Catholics - so they will fit in. Can't imagine what it would have been like otherwise : "Y'know your father wasn't a devout catholic - but you should read this . G'wan! G'wan! G'wan!) Alright then ye can go to hell!

I still have too many feelings to reconcile to complete this post. I look forward to feedback/my own cogitation to establish what i feel here

ConsultClifford

Ever read The Da Vinci Code??

elivsvonchiaing

ConsultClifford wrote:

Ever read The Da Vinci Code??

I was in the process of editing this post - but - wtf - No I'm afraid I haven't

Excuse my ignorance but please explain this book -(for posting purposes) in a nutshell.

This is my signoff response - had I seen yours: earlier 0K: 23:00 just might have gone too google - point being - I know it can suck you in and you get 0hrs sleep - just don't do it anymore

munkeehaven

yeah i hear what you are saying...if i ever do have kids i would want them to be free to choose...but then if you don't baptise a child there will be plenty of people shocked... same if they don't have holy comm,etc.i wouldn't want to ostracise them like the way jehovahs purposely do...i think that one should be introduced to religion at say.. 14, when the mind is at least partially able to understand its concepts.... like me , im stuck with the stains of catholicism...so hard to shake....i just don't know what i believe in...there is something there but it is beyond anything that i can comprehend..so for now i'm looking inward instead of outwards and am concentrating on learning more about buddhism=not a religion but a philosophy =as they don't really believe in a ''god''...

elivsvonchiaing

If asked - do I believe in G-odn Einsteins/Spinoza's god?

munkeehaven wrote:

yeah i hear what you are saying...if i ever do have kids i would want them to be free to choose...but then if you don't baptise a child there will be plenty of people shocked... same if they don't have holy comm,etc.i wouldn't want to ostracise them like the way jehovahs purposely do...i think that one should be introduced to religion at say.. 14, when the mind is at least partially able to understand its concepts.... like me , im stuck with the stains of catholicism...so hard to shake....i just don't know what i believe in...there is something there but it is beyond anything that i can comprehend..so for now i'm looking inward instead of outwards and am concentrating on learning more about buddhism=not a religion but a philosophy =as they don't really believe in a ''god''...

I have worked out that you ( & I - have already) need to discard forementioned principles
It was initilially inspirered by a joke about a CofE among my mates - should have been a Catholic - then converted to Judaism - he could then have his communion money- and bar-mitzvah money - if he converted age 12. He's a tight bastard- hence the inspiration.
]]

Fysh

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

The point being:I feel my beliefs are my own- If I ever have kids (that survive me) I want them brought up Catholics - so they will fit in. Can't imagine what it would have been like otherwise : "Y'know your father wasn't a devout catholic - but you should read this . G'wan! G'wan! G'wan!) Alright then ye can go to hell!

Would they not be better off if you instead taught them to be strong enough to stand up for themselves and make their own decisions about it? I mean, all you're saying there is "give in to peer pressure" otherwise. Which means that, at best, they'd end up in the same position of asking questions but being unable to throw off the horrible conditioning that Mother Church thinks is appropriate.

I'm all for people making their own choice about religious beliefs, but I'm very much against the indoctrination of children that's used by the major religions to ensure enduring "faith".

elivsvonchiaing

Fysh wrote:

Would they not be better off if you instead taught them to be strong enough to stand up for themselves and make their own decisions about it? I mean, all you're saying there is "give in to peer pressure" otherwise. Which means that, at best, they'd end up in the same position of asking questions but being unable to throw off the horrible conditioning that Mother Church thinks is appropriate.

I'm all for people making their own choice about religious beliefs, but I'm very much against the indoctrination of children that's used by the major religions to ensure enduring "faith".

I see what you're saying. But what I think is this: Twelve year old boy asks of his faith: "Is this all true Dad?" "No son its bollox - just don't even dream of telling your granny I said that and tell her you've been to Mass is she asks". In the case of a daughter I would probably answer this at 11. If in doubt dunno ask mummy. Asked at earlier age; I'll drop hints.
(Of course if they don't ask I'll have to give them food for thought...)

In case of son or daughter I don't seriously believe they will end up "conditioned" by the Church.

garthv

trapped in a religion?
my whole family is christain yet i dont believe in religion fullstop
it all depends on yourself

Trip

I don't like it when people say they are catholics and yet when you ask them how they practice their fate ? they 90% of the time say they don't that's why i think each person has their own unique version on religion if you like as in each person varies the religion to suit themselves or others .

elivsvonchiaing

Trip wrote:

I don't like it when people say they are catholics and yet when you ask them how they practice their fate ? they 90% of the time say they don't that's why i think each person has their own unique version on religion if you like as in each person varies the religion to suit themselves or others .

I think this is a problem with Catholicism. If you don't go to Mass every Sunday you're not practising. With more liberal christianity this problem does not arise to the same extent.

Would have to agree that people suit themselves. It is the hard-liners that really horrify me though.

simu

If you don't believe in the doctrines of the Catholic Church, don't raise your kids as Catholics. To do so would be hypocritical. They won't get bullied for it either - few people take religion seriously anymore and the other kids will probably think it's cool that your kids don't get dragged to mass every week, if they think anything at all of it.

You could also try looking for a multi-denominational school in your region if you don't want them to spend hours of school time learning off Catholic doctrine.

pork99

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

The point being:I feel my beliefs are my own- If I ever have kids (that survive me) I want them brought up Catholics - so they will fit in.

Fit in with what? A pack of priest-ridden peasants?

Beruthiel

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

If I ever have kids (that survive me) I want them brought up Catholics - so they will fit in. Can't imagine what it would have been like otherwise

:eek:
I have a daughter, I decided to bring her up without insisting she became religious, she 'fits in' with everyone - I do not believe this 'fit in' comment of yours is valid in this day and age, in fact, I don't understand why you said it.

elivsvonchiaing

Beruthiel wrote:

:eek:
I have a daughter, I decided to bring her up without insisting she became religious, she 'fits in' with everyone - I do not believe this 'fit in' comment of yours is valid in this day and age, in fact, I don't understand why you said it.

Because in my family (both sides) there will be several Aunts who will ask "so when's the christening?" assuming as a given. The answer "Ain't going to be one" will lead to offence and a possible rift. This may no longer be true in 10 years I concede. I concede this is possibly an unusual family - but that is the reality for me. I did not mean this a universal truth, but I don't believe I'm alone with this predicament.

{edit}I also really believe my mother would have stroke or something in a debate about christening a child - I could't live with that.

Beruthiel

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

{edit}I also really believe my mother would have stroke or something in a debate about christening a child - I could't live with that.

oh my parents would not be far off that either, the difference is I don't care - they've learned to live with that

elivsvonchiaing

Spoke to a couple of friends of mine today about subject matter of this thread. She is a fan of Coronation Street and more or less completely disagreed - citing recent episodes. I actually forced myself to watch it this evening.

I was amazed to find this website : http://www.corrie.net/updates/episode/2004/0409.html
Tip: just search page for Karen.

This does give me some food for thought. I never had a really negative experience of religion - more positive - the smell of frankinsence (spelling a guess :rolleyes: ) - sense of ceremony kind of moved me I guess.

I would just worry religious-abuse could come from school. Hell-fire and brimstone teacher is first thing that comes to mind.

While I can see it creating some dischord; I think on balance I would send my kids to a secular school. Don't know how first communion would work here, but as time marches on this may prove to be unnecessary.

Bottle_of_Smoke

think of all the killings caused by religion, should really be illegal for u18s

I'm not gonna force any religion upon my kids(hah me having kids), even tho i believe something is up there i dont think us humans are quite intellectually evloved to know what it is!

elivsvonchiaing

I started this thread with a "Catholic" overtone because I don't know anyone who isn't Catholic that this dilema would apply to. In Christianity I can only think of Hamish, Mennonites and Jehovah's Witnesses (not all will accept as Christian) as potentially faced with this. I can imagine COI families possibly from what I've heard. This may extend even further.

The only Jews I know are secular and have been for 1 - 2 generations. While I've only ever had brief discussion about this I suspect my views of: give the kids religion, answer honestly after 12 years of age (I will make no comment on Bar/Bat Mitzvot here) are probably the most valid to this day and age.

My conclusion: we are living in an age of religious decline - diplomacy may need to be exercised when communicating with elders of your family with regard to religion. In this process you will teach your kids diplomacy, about other religious views; and not bring up guilt-ridden kids who never got it. I personally think everyone should understand every religion that's out there.

Religious upbringing (liberal) can't harm this.

Belief in Santa Claus until age 6 does not count imho.

Belief in something until questions arise I think is far better - so long as religious abuse does not occur.

I have cited family pressure to "Christen" a child - I have since come to the conclusion that it may not be such a bad idea - but only if my partner was like-minded.

The idea of bringing up a child in a belief system you don't really believe in sounds unprincipled - but I believe if it is applied correctly you have a child who has a better understanding of the world.