Boston or Berlin

ionapaul

Is the 'soul' of Ireland currently closer to Boston or Berlin? Is there a happy medium for Ireland between these two positions - relatively unfettered capitalism* or democratic socialism*? In the grand scheme of things (compared to the entirety of the historical political spectrum), isn't it true to say that the two positions are merely flip sides of the same coin?

*of course I'm aware that American capitalism has as many aspects of government control and socialist measures as classic European socialism has capitalist aspects!

PH01

Ballina

Sparks

Looking at the infrastructure and health system, I'd have to say Bangladesh...

keu

Is there a happy medium for Ireland between these two positions - relatively unfettered capitalism* or democratic socialism*?

probably a very biased opinion, but I would have thought Ireland is the happy medium.

magick

probably Berlin, but in more real terms maybe Bangladesh

keu

unfettered democratic socalist capitalism.

ionapaul

magick wrote:

probably Berlin, but in more real terms maybe Bangladesh

I would have thought Boston, but I suppore it is hard for an individual to tell - the way I live my life differs very little from how I lived it while in the States. But I bet if I were in a different position (maybe on the dole, maybe working in a different industry at a different salary level, whatever) I would see more similarities to Berlin.

BlitzKrieg

I would have thought Boston, but I suppore it is hard for an individual to tell - the way I live my life differs very little from how I lived it while in the States. But I bet if I were in a different position (maybe on the dole, maybe working in a different industry at a different salary level, whatever) I would see more similarities to Berlin.

how much do you feel your life would have differed if you were living in Germany. (Ignoring the obvious language differences) I've met loads of germans over here and in england and the only thing they ever complain about being different are really minor things such as harder driver tests. More established recycling system and if your a german citizen you have to give service in the german military or public service after your education. Which i feel is not alot of a difference.

ionapaul

I suppose then the 'Boston or Berlin' divide may be more 'in the mind' than anything else - surely the lives of the vast majority of Americans and the lives of the vast majority of Germans (or other continental Europeans) are virtually indistinguishable in the eyes of the average Nigerian, Thai, or Mongolian.

Imagine the UK left the EU and formed a trans-atlantic union with the US and Canada, a rival to the EU - would you rather Ireland stayed in the EU, or threw in its lot with the other English-speaking nations?

'What-ifs' are always so much fun

BlitzKrieg

depends how the english are gonna act towards nations outside this formation. Ireland (as far as i know) does a large part of its trading with the UK. If England formed a trans atlantic union and put heavy tariffs on all good on the EU Ireland might go with the UK just to stop an economic collapse.


But that would be stupid.


If England went with a trans-atlantic union but kept its trading veyr much similar to what it is now then ireland would probably stay because of the euro.

BlitzKrieg

I think the original question you were looking for might have been more along the lines of the original cambridge(i think) university debate question:

Do you find more hope in Boston or in Brussels. (original was: Do you find more hope in Boston or in Moscow)

arcadegame2004

Hmmmm.

I think the this country is slightly closer to Berlin (on balance) taking account the following range of factors:

A:Closer to Berlin with the socialist-inspired State-ownership of companies.

B:Closer to Boston with lower-taxes that almost any of the originaly EU-15 states, and because we are strongly opposed to tax-harmonisation. However, some of the Eastern European EU states are closer to Boston than us on this issue, e.g. Estonia or Latvia have abolished Corporation-tax altogether.

C:Closer to Berlin than Boston on the death-penalty and gun-control, as European states tend to favour restrictions on gun-ownership, and do not believe in the right to bear arms, as well as our opposition to the death-penalty.

D:In the past we were probably closer to Boston than Berlin on religious issues, i.e. politicians ranting about religion and basing their political-attitudes on them, in questions like abortion. Nowadays we are much closer to Berlin, with the ending of the stupid ban on homosexuality, and the more liberal public attitude to abortion (as demonstrated in the Abortion referendum result in 2002).

E:The only problem I have with saying we are closer to Boston than Berlin on the Israeli-Palestinian issue is that Germany itself since 1945, has allowed its war-guilt to cause it to avoid almost any criticism of Israel. I would say then Irish public-opinion on this is far closer to Brussels (the rest of EU public opinion) than Boston on this matter.

F:Yet we traditionally have strong emotional-ties to the US due to the 44 million ethnically-Irish persons in the US (and their political influence), who identify themselves as "Irish-Americans" due to this ethnicity.

simu

Berlin.

Life in the US seems very strange to me, they seem to have a very different way of thinking there. I was in the US earlier this year and was amazed to see how they seem to constantly try and prove to themselves and others what a wonderful country America is and how it's the greatest place on earth and all that. Whereas Germans and Irish people seem to have a healthy dose of scepticism, and are wary of jingoism. Plus, the Irish and Germans love to complain about how awful everything is in their country whereas you'd rarely hear an American do the same (or maybe they don't do it when there are foreigners around).

There's also way more commercialism in the US and people seem to take having the "perfect lifestyle" really seriously.

So, I find more hope in Berlin - but I'm biased of course, I've spent quite a while learning German and there are lots of German writers and musicians I'm interested in. On the other hand, I'm a bit sick of US culture as it seems to be getting rammed down my throat at every turn I take.

The_Conductor

Lots of very interesting points- on the balance have to agree with Simu, we are a hell of a lot closer to Berlin than we are to Boston (even if the hearts of many lean in the Boston direction).

I'm fed up to the gills explaining to all my US relatives- that actually most of us don't live in thatched cottages at the end of stone walled boreens, with merrily singing red headed girls chattering to each other next door...... arrrggghhhhhh. Its soooo obvious that only an American, and Dev was from NewYork, could have come up with such romantic idealistic nonsense.

Its easy to echo the feelings about culture- and maybe have a ramble about Kafka etc- but it would be off-topic.

New labour in the UK used to use a term "Benign Capitalism"- which sort of sums up what the government here aim for- the best of both worlds. Having the social safety nets of Europe- particularly Scandinavia, while at the same time having a totally laissez faire attitude to regulation and taxation to do our utmost to stoke innovation, initiative and good business ethics..... As the scandals in our banking sectors show- we might be a bit too Boston in that regard (keep in mind the FCSB and other scandals in the US).

Its soooo easy to be either Capitalist, or Socialist. The most difficult course of all to chart is a middle of the road approach, at all times keeping in mind the vested interests that tug you from side to side.

Yes- business ethic- a la Boston, social ethic a la Berlin...... the best of both worlds!

Tuars

Boston for the FDI, Berlin for the EU grants. We have no pride, wherever the cash is being given out we'll be there, cap in hand .

I suppose if you look at our life/work relationship we've moved more towards the US in recent years with more emphasis on money and material wealth as a measure of everything. In terms of attitude to work I always see Europe as more 'working to live' and the US as more 'living to work' and I think Ireland is becoming more like the US in that way.

We are working harder than ever but we are probably suffering in terms of quality of life.

Gross generalisations I know but that's the way I feel .

ColoradoGal

I've really enjoyed these posts. One point I'd like to make is that you'll want to make sure you're actually thinking of the City of Boston and not just anyol' city, USA. Every region and their cities vary greatly form each other over here. Incidently, Boston has long been concidered one of the more Liberal, Pro-social program, pro-union/labor, pro-choice, pro-guncontrol city. The Southerners like to dismiss Boston and it's law makers, such as Ted Kennedy and John Kerry as "Massachusetts Liberals" - which also infers a jab: Liberal Irish-American Roman Catholic Yankees.

Demographically Boston is closer to Berlin and Dublin in that it's high Anglo population compared to other large cities on the east coast. And you probably knew that Boston has very, very disproportionately Irish-American population. Boston is indeed unlike any other American city. It is also more European in it's age and city layout than say, any of the places I've been living out West these past several years.

ionapaul

Tuars wrote:

We are working harder than ever but we are probably suffering in terms of quality of life.

Yeah, seems to be this way Remember the old 50s and 60s 'world of tomorrow' documentaries stating that with the rise of robots and later computers, we would work less and less? Yet we work longer hours decade after decade! At least those of us in the private sector do...
Everybody certainly seems to believe that the more things we have, the better we will feel. And if most people rejected this view, the economy would probably collapse! We need to spend almost everything we earn on more and more crap to keep the service economy going...it's a crazy world.

The_Conductor

Tuars wrote:

Boston for the FDI, Berlin for the EU grants. We have no pride, wherever the cash is being given out we'll be there, cap in hand .
.

We are actually a net contributor to the EU budget......

ColoradoGal

Regarding Boston, won't have to walk far in Boston to find the Irish Pub culture on every other block - I personally think Irish would feel much more at home in Boston than in Berlin - but I have only been to those two places a few times and I've never been to Dublin, so what do I know. It's just a hunch :-)

California cities are far less European still in their ethnic diversity and historic richness (or lack thereof). But places like San Francisco and Seattle lean much more social than do cities like Dallas.

Dallas and Boston as so different, they barely belong on the same planet!

Simu: "Whereas Germans and Irish people seem to have a healthy dose of scepticism, and are wary of jingoism. Plus, the Irish and Germans love to complain about how awful everything is in their country whereas you'd rarely hear an American do the same (or maybe they don't do it when there are foreigners around)."

I am curious as to where you were. I think you were spot on when you mention the fact that a foreigner was around. Americans are historically KNOWN for not only complaining about our society, culture, etc - we've made countless movies & TV programs airing our "dirty laundry" for the world to see. I don't see many other countries who analyzes their internal problems as much as America has. Yes, there has been some muffling of this during the Bush Admin. Post 9/11, but as you can see by F911 movie, that old tradition of beating ourselves up is coming back. We can indeed laugh at ourselves. I personally think that America has been shocked when we just recently looked out the window and saw the whole world watching us! I personally had no idea! I can think of countless self-critical movies and documentaries of our mistakes in Vietnam, but not of fraction of German movies criticizing trying to take over the world. And yes, I know they have been rather introspective indeed.

Also, I understand you frustration of American culture being so omnipresent. I would be mad at that too! Just know that this is not Americans desire at all. I've heard many times from Americans coming back from Europe complaing about this fact. The LAST thing I want to see in the middle of Rome or Amsterdam is a Planet Hollywood! The very last thing I want to hear on Italian radio is Britney Spears! I do ask though, to not direct your frustration in this matter at America, but at your own legislators and business owners for allowing The Gap into your quaint village. Americans fight the chain stores in some of our towns all the time! It works more than you'd think. A city in California just stopped another Walmart into moving into their town. It takes citizen action.

DadaKopf

ionapaul wrote:

Imagine the UK left the EU and formed a trans-atlantic union with the US and Canada, a rival to the EU - would you rather Ireland stayed in the EU, or threw in its lot with the other English-speaking nations?

Heh, you might find this interesting, then!

Since WWI Europe has always been moving towards integration with the US in complex ways, and this really picked up with the Marshall plan.

There *are* some differences between the American and European models, I suppose, but it looks more as if the basis they operate on (economic structure) is the same but the way it's managed is different (different strategies by the state and powerful interest groups to secure their interests) due to different cultures and expectations.

As for Ireland, yeah, I'd say given our place in the grand scheme of things, we're somewhere in-between.

Although I recently read something which said we used to be in-between. If being in-between meant anything, it was bad for the economy, apparently. We had the option to go either the Boston route or the Berlin route. We chose the Berlin route.

Vive la différance.

Flukey

It is not really a case of which one we are closer to. The fact is that we are tied to both!

ColoradoGal

Was homosexuality "banned" there until recently?! Would Gay Marriage be a possibility in the near future?

ionapaul

ColoradoGal wrote:

Was homosexuality "banned" there until recently?! Would Gay Marriage be a possibility in the near future?

Anyone see 'Reeling back the years' tonight? Featuring 1991? Can you believe that condoms were actually illegal until that year! And that even so many people were upset about the repealing of the ban. And immigration continued apace. Amazing stuff, history. Thank God or whomever for the 1990s in Ireland.

ColoradoGal

Wow, I wouldn't have believed it. Yes, the 90's were a relatively good decade for us too. Unfortunately we've hit a spell of the dark ages as of late.

arcadegame2004

We are actually a net contributor to the EU budget......

Not true until 2007. True if you exclude CAP payments to Ireland, though.

But that is misleading, since the value of any payments to the EU is outweight hundred-fold by the value of exports to the EU.

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Not true until 2007. True if you exclude CAP payments to Ireland, though.

But that is misleading, since the value of any payments to the EU is outweight hundred-fold by the value of exports to the EU.

I'm confused- they are two totally seperate issues. Exports to the EU are non-vattable, so they don't generate shared tax revenue- so they have no influence (other than as an economic simulator)?

Re: CAP- its a bit of a red herring, and a dying red herring at that. Someday soon those farmers will learn to live in the real world like everyone else.....
Under CAP as well- you have Jerry Henchy and Mitchelstown, reform of the various regimes etc...... CAP payments are acknowledged as a negative transfer payment- and as such are considered to have a detrimental effect on drystock and sheep farming (among others) (according to the farming section in the Irish Times)..... According to the same publication we have been a net contributor to the EU purse since Q3 2003.

S.

Flukey

It is all changing for us, but we have done really well out of the money we did get. Compare things like infrastructure to what it was pre-1973 and it has changed radically. If you remember roads here in 70's and 80's and compare them to now, the difference in immense. Driving on a lot of the better roads now and they are in many cases just as good as those you would have in the rest of Western Europe. We have benefitted in a plethora of other ways. We have been used as an example of how to use funds we get from the EU by other countries. A lot of it has been well spent and the benefits are there to see. So in many respects we have done very well in the EU.

simu

ColoradoGal wrote:

I am curious as to where you were. I think you were spot on when you mention the fact that a foreigner was around. Americans are historically KNOWN for not only complaining about our society, culture, etc - we've made countless movies & TV programs airing our "dirty laundry" for the world to see. I don't see many other countries who analyzes their internal problems as much as America has. Yes, there has been some muffling of this during the Bush Admin. Post 9/11, but as you can see by F911 movie, that old tradition of beating ourselves up is coming back. We can indeed laugh at ourselves. I personally think that America has been shocked when we just recently looked out the window and saw the whole world watching us! I personally had no idea! I can think of countless self-critical movies and documentaries of our mistakes in Vietnam, but not of fraction of German movies criticizing trying to take over the world. And yes, I know they have been rather introspective indeed.

I know there have been films like Fahrenheit 9-11 and so on but I was thinking more of individual Americans I've had conversations with (mostly in Ireland, actually) - many of them seem to be reluctant to criticise their government as if that were a sign of weakness on their part. Or some pretend to be dumb and refuse to take part in discussions when Dubya is brought into the conversation. It's weird!

This year, I was in Florida on a silly touristy holiday I only went on becuase I got it for free and overall, the impression was that people thought anywhere outside the US was a complete backwater. An example: At the Kennedy space centre, the moon landings and so on were constantly presented as an achievement of American civilisation forgetting that many of the physicists and engineers that contributed were non-American and that there were centuries of history outside the US that led to these events. I suspect Florida would be worse than, say New England, for this sort of thing but is this really the sort of message you want to send out to tourists?

As for Germans, they've done their fair share of agonising about the Nazi era by now, but German culture tends to get less media coverage internationally!

Also, I understand you frustration of American culture being so omnipresent. I would be mad at that too! Just know that this is not Americans desire at all. I've heard many times from Americans coming back from Europe complaing about this fact. The LAST thing I want to see in the middle of Rome or Amsterdam is a Planet Hollywood! The very last thing I want to hear on Italian radio is Britney Spears! I do ask though, to not direct your frustration in this matter at America, but at your own legislators and business owners for allowing The Gap into your quaint village. Americans fight the chain stores in some of our towns all the time! It works more than you'd think. A city in California just stopped another Walmart into moving into their town. It takes citizen action.

Well, I find it a bit annoying but I don't have a huge grudge either! It's more a question of, if there's a choice between a US film or a film from somewhere else, I'd generally be more interested in the latter as I'm already pretty familiar with US films and so on. I don't boycott US cultural artefacts completely or anything!

DadaKopf

Americans are historically KNOWN for not only complaining about our society, culture, etc - we've made countless movies & TV programs airing our "dirty laundry" for the world to see. I don't see many other countries who analyzes their internal problems as much as America has.

I'm not so sure about this at all. Any scathing attack on America in TV or the cinema is usually highly metaphorical, so the point is usually missed by most. Anything that does make it into the mainstream is usually of the "We're number one!" variety, or anything that does pretend to be critical usually ends up saying "This was wrong, now we've fixed it, we're number one!"

American mainstream culture may air its "dirty laundry", but it never gets clean. Pay particular attention to pseuds like Oliver Stone, The West Wing, and I'm finding Stargate Atlantis interesting these days.

Victor

BlitzKrieg wrote:

If England formed a trans atlantic union and put heavy tariffs on all good on the EU Ireland might go with the UK just to stop an economic collapse.

It won't happen, but even if it did, have you ever heard of the World Trade Organisation?

Redleslie2

How many people here have actually been to berlin or boston and consider themselves fit to comment on differences with Ireland or where ever?

arcadegame2004

Blitzkrieg, I don't personally think we would or should go in with the UK if they leave the EU. Remember, we are FAR less dependent on them economically than when we joined the EU.

In 1972, 80% of Irish exports went to the UK.

Now its 21%. 37% goes to the Eurozone. And that ignores the other EU states.

Leaving the EU just because Britain chooses (if it does) would be against the proud tradition started by us joining the Euro without them. Namely that we should try to emphasise our separate identity from them in order to stress we have moved on from the days when we were willing to tolerate being part of their "sphere of influence".

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004- I've openly disagreed with you on a number of threads- but I would have to wholeheartedly agree with your summation of the position, were the UK to leave the EU.

DadaKopf- Was going to write a piece not dissimilar to your more eloquent piece on American cinema and their export offerings to the rest of the world. I gave up on it- as mine turned into a rant- but have to agree 100% with yours. I'd also add to it- that the idea that somehow America airing its dirty laundry is a unique attribute is more than a little galling- and suggest that perhaps ColoradoGal quite simply is not au fait with European cinema (and more to the point- current affairs in general, from anything other than the perspective offered by a biased US media). You know it never ceases to amaze me that the "rest of the world" is relegated to a mere couple of paragraphs, more often than not of a quirky nature, in the likes of America Today. I honestly and truely blame the media for the insular attitudes that appear to pervade the collective subconscious of the US (and I will readily admit to a wide generalisation and tarring with a massive brush). Why should we wonder why we are treated as backwaters- when the main item of foreign news is a piece on how the Tower of Pisa had to have its foundations shifted so it didn't topple- on a day when there were flash floods in several countries...........

Hmmmmmm........

DadaKopf

Redleslie2 wrote:

How many people here have actually been to berlin or boston and consider themselves fit to comment on differences with Ireland or where ever?

Mostly irrelevant. The Boston/Berlin metaphor refers to economic policy and trade links, really. See arcadegame2004's post above.

Smcarrick: Yeah, good point. Another example of US exceptionalism.

Redleslie2

DadaKopf wrote:

Mostly irrelevant. The Boston/Berlin metaphor refers to economic policy and trade links, really. See arcadegame2004's post above.

Smcarrick: Yeah, good point. Another example of US exceptionalism.

Yeah you're quite correct. I only vaguely remember posting that, strong drink involved etc.

I think that on balance, we're closer to Boston in most ways. For example, there's nothing like Berlin's Tacheles in Dublin or Boston and there probably never will be. Anyway, I've never really been convinced that Berlin is representative of Germany as a whole, never mind the general european model. And afaik, the city is currently bankrupt and has 20% unemployment due in no small part to the problems with reunification. The public transport is deadly though. And there's a bar there somewhere where you can drink what you want and only have to pay what you can when you're done. That would never ever work here.

SkepticOne

It's amazing that this debate is still going on four years later. At the time I thought it was just more rubbish from Harney to link the preceding economic growth with PD style economic policies and ingratiate herself with her audience. I think, maybe, the Iraq unpleasantness and other US adventures has made people more inclined towards Europe.

Obviously, Boston and Berlin are just symbols of different stances towards economic policy and, in the case of Ireland, I don't think it has much to do with the soul of the Irish people. We are much the same people just under different economic circumstances.

simu

Looks like silly season applies here as well as in the papers!

DadaKopf

It's amazing that this debate is still going on four years later. At the time I thought it was just more rubbish from Harney to link the preceding economic growth with PD style economic policies and ingratiate herself with her audience. I think, maybe, the Iraq unpleasantness and other US adventures has made people more inclined towards Europe.

Maybe our government is closer to 'Boston', but society is closer to 'Berlin'?

If this is the case, we're in big trouble.

Sand

Economically were closer to Boston - were a tiny open economy and our low tax levels are probably the biggest reason for the investment thats driving our economy.

Politically were closer to Berlin though, in that people expect a state driven society and are encouraged to be suspicious of private interests. The only economically liberal party in Ireland are the PDs whose support is...poor, and theyre often described as fascists which indicates just how left the benchmark of centrism lies here. The nearest alternatives are FF/FG who are basically populists and the dirtiest low down sluts in Irish politics. Theyre not economically left or right - theyll just get into bed with anyone else to stop the other getting into power.

And the rest are all left wing nutters...varying shades of. Its a credit to the PDs and the gradual shift right of mainstream socialism that the economy is running in any decent shape at all.

BlitzKrieg

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Blitzkrieg, I don't personally think we would or should go in with the UK if they leave the EU. Remember, we are FAR less dependent on them economically than when we joined the EU.

In 1972, 80% of Irish exports went to the UK.

Now its 21%. 37% goes to the Eurozone. And that ignores the other EU states.
.

damn this geography book is waaaay out of date then (chucks it out the window) where's the best place to poke for current trading statistics...