[Whine] Do we really HAVE to have a crap rail service?

Yoda

Iarnród Éireann's web site is one of the clumsier and slower sites that I've ever used to try to get scheduling information from. Why can't one specify "single" or "return" and do a search on all of that at the same time?

After finding out some of this information, I rang to check pricing. A return ticket to Galway is €40. That's fine. I asked, what if I go in to Galway, drive up to Westport, and return from there? Oh, that would be "two separate journeys" the fellow said., and would cost me €37 + €37, two single tickets.

This makes no sense. Why do we have this kind of ripoff absurdity? Can something be done about it?

John R

You can download all the timetables here: http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetables.asp


As for your rip-off problem you could always get the bus. Dublin - Galway €13 single €16 return. Westport - Dublin €15.50 single €23.00 return
Or you could try a return ticket from Dublin - Clifden €22 return that might be useable on both Galway and Westport routes.
Or if you are going by train during the week, get a €10 day return for each line and just use them one way.

Yoda

I know I can download the timetables. Online forms are handy, and quick and convenient -- on many other sites, at least.

Personally I don't prefer bus travel, but that's not the point. Compare costs: Dublin-Galway €13 single/€16 return: the return costs 23% more than the single. Westport-Dublin €15.50 single/€23.00 return: the return costs 48% more than the single. (That in itself deserves rectifying.) Taking BOTH singles costs €28.50, which is 24% more than the most expensive return.

On the train, on Friday, both routes cost €37 single/€40 return: the return costs 8% more than the single. Taking BOTH singles costs €74, which is 85% more than the most expensive return.

This pricing structure is a ripoff, surely. This pricing structure is arbitrary and penalizes people who want to travel without arbitrary restriction in Ireland.

(Your idea about the day return is clever, indeed, but doesn't address the problem. Actually, that Day Return isn't very useful for the termini, because you have to travel before 11:00 and come back on the last train. That doesn't work out very well for some of the longer hauls. Though it is not a bad scheme to get people onto the train, and if the REGULAR fares made any sense perhaps more people would use them. Maybe I'll have lunch in Wexford next week just for fun.)

parsi

Yoda wrote:

This pricing structure is a ripoff, surely. This pricing structure is arbitrary and penalizes people who want to travel without arbitrary restriction in Ireland.

But every travel network (non-commuter) in the world penalises people who want to travel without arbitrary restriction...

Yoda

Offering incentive for return journeys is one thing. Offering the kind of fares exemplified by the percentages I cited above is quite another.

John R

Yoda wrote:

I know I can download the timetables. Online forms are handy, and quick and convenient -- on many other sites, at least.

Personally I don't prefer bus travel, but that's not the point. Compare costs: Dublin-Galway €13 single/€16 return: the return costs 23% more than the single. Westport-Dublin €15.50 single/€23.00 return: the return costs 48% more than the single. (That in itself deserves rectifying.) Taking BOTH singles costs €28.50, which is 24% more than the most expensive return.

On the train, on Friday, both routes cost €37 single/€40 return: the return costs 8% more than the single. Taking BOTH singles costs €74, which is 85% more than the most expensive return.

This pricing structure is a ripoff, surely. This pricing structure is arbitrary and penalizes people who want to travel without arbitrary restriction in Ireland.

(Your idea about the day return is clever, indeed, but doesn't address the problem. Actually, that Day Return isn't very useful for the termini, because you have to travel before 11:00 and come back on the last train. That doesn't work out very well for some of the longer hauls. Though it is not a bad scheme to get people onto the train, and if the REGULAR fares made any sense perhaps more people would use them. Maybe I'll have lunch in Wexford next week just for fun.)

It is a relatively common fare structure to have return fares much lower than two singles and in general most passengers benefit from it. It is only recently that selling each journey seperately as cheap or cheaper than inclusive returns has become common, mainly from the airline industry.
The problem with Irish Rail at the moment is that they can't deal with the extra passengers that cheaper fares would bring.
There is a big improvement in services coming in the next few years, it would be more likely then that they could start offering regular airline style advance booking and promotional fares for lower demand services.

Flukey

Let's hope they get their act together soon. Like most transport in the country, they have been improving, but they still have a long way to go.

Yoda

John R wrote:

It is a relatively common fare structure to have return fares much lower than two singles and in general most passengers benefit from it. It is only recently that selling each journey seperately as cheap or cheaper than inclusive returns has become common, mainly from the airline industry.

So? Look at those specific percentages. They are unreasonable!

The problem with Irish Rail at the moment is that they can't deal with the extra passengers that cheaper fares would bring.

I'm not suggesting that the fares become unreasonably cheap. I'm suggesting that the fare structure makes no sense.

There is a big improvement in services coming in the next few years,

And a great improvement it will be, if the service is improved in that way. But that doesn't excuse the current arbitrary pricing model.

it would be more likely then that they could start offering regular airline style advance booking and promotional fares for lower demand services.

I still maintain that the current pricing model is nonsensical, and could be rectified in advance of eventual increases in time-schedule services.

Yoda

Flukey wrote:

Let's hope they get their act together soon. Like most transport in the country, they have been improving, but they still have a long way to go.

That's my point. We all know that the service is being improved. But a pricing structure which doesn't make sense could be changed in advance of an eventual service improvement.

kelle

God be with the days when i lived in London. I thought transport was crap over there, but when i moved to Dublin I realised it was a dream in comparison. nd it was much cheaper then

sliabh

Lqast October my brother and I wanted to take the train to Cork for the weekend. We discovered that two adult return fares were more expensive than the family fare (2 adults and 2 children). When we asked about this we were told that we would need to have at least one child with us to claim the fare.

Unfortunately we were unable to procure a child at short notice so we had to pay the full fare.

The guards didn't press charges either :-)

Flukey

When you go abroad you realise how far our public transport system is behind the times.

sliabh

Flukey wrote:

When you go abroad you realise how far our public transport system is behind the times.

Last June I was riding a tram from the airport in Amsterdam with my girlfriend. She was saying just the same thing when the tram broke down :-)

And the Dutch I met had similar complaints to the Irish: "you wait for ages and then two come together"

Zulu

They suck something awful, and I'm not buying into this whole "a lot done, more to do crap".
It's a bloody disgrace how they do business. They advertise the ability to book tickets over the phone. Tourists assume that in Ireland (like every other country) this means you can reserve a seat/place on the train. What they don't realise is that they still have to queue to get the ticket, they still have to queue to get on the train, they don't have a place reserved and mightn't even get on the train.
The prices are scandlous, which is something that I could live with if I was gaurenteed a good service, but you can forget that. I've had to stand on an "Arrow" train (a fancy feicen Dart) the whole way from Galway to Dublin. I would have had a seat on the bus. Disgrace.

I go to any other European country and am treated to a superb service.

Iarnród Éireann: for shame!

Alun

I'm afraid it's one of those facts of life that wherever you are in the world, and however good you may think the trains / busses / trams (not to mention health service, schools, justice system or even the weather!) are compared to what you have here, the locals still complain about them. I've lived in both Germany and Holland and I can assure you that they moan about public transport just as much as we do about ours.

I think it's partly due to the 'holiday effect'. Most people experience other countries' transport systems when they're on holiday, when they are a) less stressed b) in less of a hurry c) in a good mood and d) travelling outside of peak periods. Try using those same transport systems day-in day-out to get to and from work, and the cracks will show.

Zulu

Alun wrote:

I'm afraid it's one of those facts of life that wherever you are in the world, and however good you may think the trains / busses / trams (not to mention health service, schools, justice system or even the weather!) are compared to what you have here, the locals still complain about them. I've lived in both Germany and Holland and I can assure you that they moan about public transport just as much as we do about ours.

I think it's partly due to the 'holiday effect'. Most people experience other countries' transport systems when they're on holiday, when they are a) less stressed b) in less of a hurry c) in a good mood and d) travelling outside of peak periods. Try using those same transport systems day-in day-out to get to and from work, and the cracks will show.

This might be very true - but I've lived in Sweden, and while I will say their system is better, if you find my a Swede who will say the Irish system is better I'll give you a tenner.
No country in europe will say "look at the Irish rail system, it's deadly, I wish ours was that good". ...because ours is pants. One of the worst in europe. Pants. Absolutly pants. Pants. Pants. Pants.

sliabh

Zulu wrote:

This might be very true - but I've lived in Sweden, and while I will say their system is better, if you find my a Swede who will say the Irish system is better I'll give you a tenner.
No country in europe will say "look at the Irish rail system, it's deadly, I wish ours was that good". ...because ours is pants. One of the worst in europe. Pants. Absolutly pants. Pants. Pants. Pants.

I think our geographic situation doesn't help. We are a relatively small island with only two large population centres. There may be a problem with having the route densities to make a better system cost effective. And that is part of the probem that causes high fares.

That said the various CIE companies have a lot to learn about the concept of customer service

Alun

Zulu wrote:

This might be very true - but I've lived in Sweden, and while I will say their system is better, if you find me a Swede who will say the Irish system is better I'll give you a tenner.

I never said you would, and I can't speak for the Swedes, but both the Dutch and the Germans do complain about their public transport. That's not to say that it isn't miles better than what we have here, but just to point out that however good something like this is, there are always people who think it could be better. In Holland people complain if a train is 5 minutes late, in Germany if it's two minutes late, and in Japan they probably complain if it's 1 second late! Here you're just happy if it arrives at all.

Trojan

Yoda wrote:

After finding out some of this information, I rang to check pricing. A return ticket to Galway is €40. That's fine. I asked, what if I go in to Galway, drive up to Westport, and return from there? Oh, that would be "two separate journeys" the fellow said., and would cost me €37 + €37, two single tickets.

I have done this trip twice in the last 18 months, and more before that - my parents live close to Westport, and I have a lot of friends in Galway having gone to college there, so often have left from a different town when returning back to Dublin.

I have never paid for more than one return ticket and used it on the wrong train coming back. I've never asked beforehand, I just turn up at the train station and explain the situation to the ticket inspector before I board the train.

Yoda, I think you might be running into a cultural issue here. I know you're not continental European, and I have noticed that they in particular tend to cause more trouble for themselves by attracting the interest of bored Irish beaurocrats when they try "to do the right thing", when in reality, the good auld Irish way of just chancing ones arm works 99% of the time in these type of situations.

I'm not defending this culture, but I sure as hell make use of it.

Al.

Zulu

Alun wrote:

I never said you would, and I can't speak for the Swedes, but both the Dutch and the Germans do complain about their public transport. That's not to say that it isn't miles better than what we have here, but just to point out that however good something like this is, there are always people who think it could be better. In Holland people complain if a train is 5 minutes late, in Germany if it's two minutes late, and in Japan they probably complain if it's 1 second late! Here you're just happy if it arrives at all.

I agree completly, but...
No one is Holland/Germany/Sweden is ever going to use the Irish rail system as a good example or a benchmark. We have one of the crappiest system. It's pants I tells ya - pants.

BrianD

Well that's what happens when consecutive governments refuse to invest in public transport.

Having said that, train transport would always be expensive here given the size and nature of the network and the population density. Plus its a radial service you gotta go to Dublin to go anywhere else.

IR could take the initiative and allow a certain amount of flexibility as per the example Yoda gave.

kelle

QUOTED BY ALUN I think it's partly due to the 'holiday effect'. Most people experience other countries' transport systems when they're on holiday, when they are a) less stressed b) in less of a hurry c) in a good mood and d) travelling outside of peak periods. Try using those same transport systems day-in day-out to get to and from work, and the cracks will show.
I was Not on holidays when I lived in London.

Alun

kelle wrote:

QUOTED BY ALUN I think it's partly due to the 'holiday effect'. Most people experience other countries' transport systems when they're on holiday, when they are a) less stressed b) in less of a hurry c) in a good mood and d) travelling outside of peak periods. Try using those same transport systems day-in day-out to get to and from work, and the cracks will show.
I was Not on holidays when I lived in London.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here... you're really not trying to say that London's transport system is a pinnacle of perfection, are you? While it is certainly miles ahead of what we have here, it is far from perfect, and you'll have no difficulty whatsoever in finding several Londoners who agree with that.

Yoda

Trojan wrote:

I have done this trip twice in the last 18 months, and more before that - my parents live close to Westport, and I have a lot of friends in Galway having gone to college there, so often have left from a different town when returning back to Dublin. I have never paid for more than one return ticket and used it on the wrong train coming back. I've never asked beforehand, I just turn up at the train station and explain the situation to the ticket inspector before I board the train.

I can't say that it would occur to me to do that. You wouldn't get to do it on a plane, now, would you? Especially when IR's ticket agent clearly explains that "it's two separate journeys, and we do this because it suits most of our customers".

Yoda, I think you might be running into a cultural issue here. I know you're not continental European, and I have noticed that they in particular tend to cause more trouble for themselves by attracting the interest of bored Irish beaurocrats when they try "to do the right thing", when in reality, the good auld Irish way of just chancing ones arm works 99% of the time in these type of situations.

B'fhéidir é. The oul' blas Meiriceánach does me well in some situations, though I wouldn't think of doing fiddling with a ticket, since I'd consider them more likely to think I was fare evading....

IR needs to sort their fare structures and make them relate to some sort of reality, like, um, say, kilometres.

Victor

Yoda wrote:

After finding out some of this information, I rang to check pricing. A return ticket to Galway is €40. That's fine. I asked, what if I go in to Galway, drive up to Westport, and return from there? Oh, that would be "two separate journeys" the fellow said., and would cost me €37 + €37, two single tickets.

What about train Dublin(?)-Galway, car Galway Westport, train Westport-Athlone (on a second ticket), (same) train Athlone-Dublin?

Alternatively use a bus, as best I know many Wesport busses go through Galway.

Yoda

Victor wrote:

What about train Dublin(?)-Galway, car Galway Westport, train Westport-Athlone (on a second ticket), (same) train Athlone-Dublin?

Sure, that would be a solution.

But a better solution would be a rational and non-arbitrary fee structure that made sense.

Boards made a contribution to changing Irish life with the IrelandOffline initiative. Couldn't a similar initative, perhaps in cooperation with some of the other rail lobby groups, be likewise effective?

enterprise

Actually to get back to the main point of this thread your Heuston / Galway return ticket would have been vaild to travel from Westport to Heuston on the return at NO EXTRA COST- IE does allow this on a number of routes. A friend of mine who works for IE told me this ages ago and its handy to know - just a pity the clerk you spoke was not aware of it.


E.g. Dubln / Galway would be vaild on the Dublin / Westport and Dublin / Limerick. This is to facilitate customers travelling to their final destination between rail lines. E.g. a person who lives in Gort for example.

I hope I have not entirely pissed off your evening telling the good news

Enterprise.

Yoda

Would a Westport-Dublin return ticket be good to return to Galway from Dublin as well?

enterprise

as far as I know it would be vaild. There is no price difference so there should not be any problem.

Enterprise.