Is Tellytubby right..?

gandalf

Is Beverly Cooper (neck like a jockeys bollix) Flynn unfit to hold public office and should she stand down in light of the conclusions of the NIB investigations and findings?

Personally I think Ahern fudged this in the first place. Not only should she have been dropped from FF but she should have been forced out of the dail at that stage.

(thought it would be a nice change from all the Sinn Fein and US electorial posts on here!!)

Flukey

Well he was never going to put one of his governments seats up for grabs. As for your main question, sure half the Dáil are unfit for public office!

gandalf

Looks like he may have to now I wonder could this be the straw that breaks the PD/FF marraige!!

One can hope

Flukey

One can hope but FF won't really like the other possible suitors, which may keep them in the marriage. I think they've been sleeping in separate rooms for a long time. I believe they also have their eyes on one of the suitors, one that would not exactly have a lot of others queueing at their door. I believe they have secretly being doing a little wooing!

Cork

Bertie took very decisive action on Beverly Flynn by expressing the view that she should be expelled from FF.

I think that evading tax is wrong and giving advice to evade tax is wrong. But Beverly Cooper was an employee of this bank. Should all ex employees of the bank face similar sanction?

Should all TDs before taking up public office require senate style investigation?

She has already faced sanction by FF. Bertie did act pretty quickly to expell her after the High Court Judgement.

He did in fairness wait for the High Court Judgement.

AngelofFire

Just another testiment to the fact that Fianna Fail are the party of sleeze and corruption in this country

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

Just another testiment to the fact that Fianna Fail are the party of sleeze and corruption in this country

You use the word "are"?

Could you give a few current examples?

You seem to ignore FFs management of this country from a highly taxed basket case to one with high growth, low tax and low unemployment.

Compare the record of this government with previous governments?

It was not a FF government who even introduced DIRT tax.

But it was a FF government who brought the credit unions into line where by the individual credit unions could deduct dirt from members accounts.

Before this, it was left to members discression.

AngelofFire

Burke, Lawlor and CJ haughey and George Redmond aswell cork.

Zombrex

Cork wrote:

Bertie took very decisive action on Beverly Flynn by expressing the view that she should be expelled from FF.

I think that evading tax is wrong and giving advice to evade tax is wrong. But Beverly Cooper was an employee of this bank. Should all ex employees of the bank face similar sanction?

All ex-employees who encouraged people to evade paying tax. You seem to think this is like encouraging someone to open a savings account. Even if she was told to do this by the bank, she should have refused.

Cork wrote:

Should all TDs before taking up public office require senate style investigation?

All TDs should resign and never run for election again once it has been established that they encouraged people break the law. But people like Flynn live in a la-la land where they think they did nothing wrong, so the must be expelled. Bertie took a very stupid risk supporting Flynn until her appeal, especially considering it was a technicallity that she was trying to get off on, and he has no one but himself to blame for the egg on his and FF's face after all this. She is a disgrace to herself and to the party, and those who tried to protect her are just as bad.

Cork

Wicknight wrote:

She is a disgrace to herself and to the party

She is not a member of a political party. But let the law deal with the report on NIB.

Wicknight wrote:

But people like Flynn live in a la-la land where they think they did nothing wrong.

Should we start applying the same standards to SF - a party with links to an illegal arrmy?

Let the law decide on NIB and let the people of Mayo decide on Beberly Cooper.

She got a mandate after finishing with the NIB and after the NIB story broke.

AngelofFire

Cork wrote:

You use the word "are"?

Could you give a few current examples?

You seem to ignore FFs management of this country from a highly taxed basket case to one with high growth, low tax and low unemployment.

Compare the record of this government with previous governments?

It was not a FF government who even introduced DIRT tax.

But it was a FF government who brought the credit unions into line where by the individual credit unions could deduct dirt from members accounts.

Before this, it was left to members discression.

Fianna Fail did not invent the celtic tiger,it started a few years before they were in power.Under Fianna Fail there has been a massive shift in the distribution of wealth to the rich.

Low taxation was not the cause of the celtic tiger nor was the demise of social democratic policies, The Boom came first then came tax concessions.In his speach at the Annual IBEC conference McDowell gave a distorted account of ireland`s recent economic history,saying that it was a dogma of neo liberal
policies that caused the celtic tiger thus trying to justify his statement that its ok to stick it to the poor sometimes.

This Inegalitarianism endorsed by this government is reminisicent of William Martin Murphys repression of ITGWU members trying to make ends meet during the 1913 lockout.

Fianna Fail have put more money into the pockets of the rich through massive tax concessions whilst hitting the poor and average earners with indirect charges such as the hike in VAT,Doubling of College registration fees and increases in Motorway tolls and waste charges,VHI premiums well beyond the rate of inflation.Ireland has the highest stealth taxes in europe and more people in the PAYE sector paying at the higher rate of taxation.so much for them lowering the taxes :rolleyes:

We fought for hundreds of years to break the power of Landlordism and now under the so called "republican party" landlords are exploiting people in this country by making them pay the highest rents for a single room dwelling in the EU. The profit margin for property developers has opened up under the Fianna Fail government. Housing prices have increased beyond inflation,and increases in wage. A couple now needs €90,000 to afford a shack.

Victor

Cork, from your question a few months ago, this is why they took special interest in Bev, they know people are going down (and/or to jail) and have distanced her "far enough".

Zombrex

Cork wrote:

She is not a member of a political party. But let the law deal with the report on NIB.

She was a member of the Fianna Fail party, until she disgraced herself and that party. She should have never run for public office, but like I said, La-La land.

Cork wrote:

Should we start applying the same standards to SF - a party with links to an illegal arrmy?

Yes ... I would never vote for Sinn Fein, and I would discourage others from doing so as well.

Cork wrote:

Let the law decide on NIB and let the people of Mayo decide on Beberly Cooper.

And let Fianna Fail decide that she is a disgrace and that they don't want anything to do with her.

Cork wrote:

She got a mandate after finishing with the NIB and after the NIB story broke.

Cork, what part of "she lied to the public, to the court, to the party and to the Taoiseach" do you not get.

The fact that she fought two legal battles with RTE in which she claimed she didn't do something that she actually did, lied to the public about her guilt and lied to the members of her own party that (foolishly) supported her, is enough to kick her out, never mind the fact that she encouraged people to break the law.

Flukey

Cork wrote:

Bertie took very decisive action on Beverly Flynn by expressing the view that she should be expelled from FF.

Expressing a view can hardly be described as very decisive action, if any action at all.

Cork wrote:

I think that evading tax is wrong and giving advice to evade tax is wrong. But Beverly Cooper was an employee of this bank. Should all ex employees of the bank face similar sanction?

All ex-employees of NIB are not TD's, but Beverly Cooper-Flynn, though she no longer likes to use that name, is! That is the difference and it is a very big one.

Cork wrote:

She has already faced sanction by FF. Bertie did act pretty quickly to expell her after the High Court Judgement.

Well poor Beverly, expelled by Bertie, God help her! Big deal! That is hardly a punishment and what does Bertie want, a medal? Dress it up whatever way you like, but Beverly has not received any punishment as yet and there are bigger crooks than her around, not least her father, that have not even received the meaningless "punishment" she has. What next? When the Dáil resumes, will she be asked to go stand in the corner?

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

We fought for hundreds of years to break the power of Landlordism and now under the so called "republican party" landlords are exploiting people in this country by making them pay the highest rents for a single room dwelling in the EU.

I was paying higher rent in a county town 2 years ago than what I pay today in the city.

But, So what is your alternative to market economics? (while pointing out that there never have been as many houses been built in this country).

Beverly Flynn is not a member of FF. This discussion is interesting that no body has even commented that NIBs banking licence is not going to be removed.

The evasion of DIRT was widespread in many financial institutions. It was Charlie McCreevy who brought Credit Unions in line with the banks in deducting DIRT from members accounts. Up to then, It was up to individual members to declare such interest/dividends.

Beverly has not received any punishment as yet

FF have expelled her. She is facing massive legal bills.

AngelofFire

Cork wrote:

I was paying higher rent in a county town 2 years ago than what I pay today in the city.

But, So what is your alternative to market economics? (while pointing out that there never have been as many houses been built in this country).

.

on the continent the fact that profit margins for property developers Isn`t 300% doesnt mean that theres a shortage of housing.Not even free market economics can justify selling houses which costs 97,000 to build at 300,000..

So what you are trying to say that profiteering and greed in the housing sector which exclude most people from being able to afford a house is justified as it is part of a Dogma of Free market economics?.

Even under these free market conditions houses should not be half as expensive as they are now.

potlatch

So what you are trying to say that profiteering and greed in the housing sector which exclude most people from being able to afford a house is justified as it is part of a Dogma of Free market economics?

McDowell would certainly think so, as well as his PD neo-Cons. Don't forget he said at the end of May that inequality (and relative poverty) is a positive value in society as it increases people's incentives to work and to make money. Continuing his logic, that just means many more people are going to have to work harder and longer to afford that house, and an inflated housing market is an incentive for people to work, isn't it?

Balls.

Anyway, this thread is about B.C.F. She's got no excuses. Kick her out. We don't want criminals in our parliament. It's only when things like this happen that you truly realise the tribalism of Irish politics.

Cork

potlatch wrote:

Anyway, this thread is about B.C.F. She's got no excuses. Kick her out. We don't want criminals in our parliament. It's only when things like this happen that you truly realise the tribalism of Irish politics.

So Joe Higgins should also resign as he served a jail sentence?

Should any action be taken aganist Martin Ferris?

potlatch

Higgins broke the law. But Higgins' 'crime' was political in nature, clearly motivated by the common good. There is some justification in what he, and many others, did. This was a relatively low-order example of conscientious objection.

However high-level corruption - corruption being the use of public office or money,or other people's money, for private gain - is a serious assault on a country's governance structures. This is what BCF was involved in, and it's a particularly high-level crime because banks are intimately connected to countries' past and fortunes.

That's bad.

Cork

potlatch wrote:

Higgins broke the law. But Higgins' 'crime' was political in nature, clearly motivated by the common good. There is some justification in what he, and many others, did. This was a relatively low-order example of conscientious objection.

But was he not sentenced by the court?
Did he not break the law?

Is it ok then for a TD to break the law?

Had we not a TD a number of years ago with an Ansbacker account? - He was not either expelled from his party or had he to resign his seat.

Should we have a points system for various crimes TDs commit?

We don't want criminals in our parliament

Or should we just expect anyone with a criminal record should be booted out?

Or perhaps anybody cought smoking in the Dail Bar?

Who is to draw up and enforce these guidelines?

dahamsta

Just a friendly reminder for Cork, who seems to have missed this post:

AngelofFire wrote:

Burke, Lawlor and CJ haughey and George Redmond aswell cork.

Looking forward to the response.

adam

potlatch

Yup. Clear and systematic abuse, by groups within the country's largest political organization, of our state, its laws, its system and its values for personal enrichment to the detriment of that system and society in general.

It's simply not acceptable nor convincing to excuse these people of such high-level fraud by producing lists of other offenders whose crimes were of negligible significance.

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

Just another testiment to the fact that Fianna Fail are the party of sleeze and corruption in this country

I then asked for some current examples:

You use the word "are"?

And a list was posted:

Burke, Lawlor and CJ haughey and George Redmond aswell cork.

I don't think any of the above are currently members of FF.

Corruption is not confined to one political party or to certain sections of our society.

I am 100% aganist any curruption. But I'll let the courts and the tribunerals deal with it.

FF has acted prommptly in the Beverly Cooper case. I would even have FF to have awaited the report before acting. But FF in fairness acted pretty promptly.

Regulation within the banking sector needs to be addressed. In fairness the NIB has addressed many past failures itself after the scandal was exposed.

It looks that the bank will be sold off and hopefully these banking scandals will not effect US foriegn direct investment into this country.

Cork

potlatch wrote:

It's simply not acceptable nor convincing to excuse these people of such high-level fraud by producing lists of other offenders whose crimes were of negligible significance.

So, people not paying for refuse in an era of low personal taxation is of less "negligible significance".

Would TV licence spongers also be included on this list?

Where would IRA bank raids enter the list?

The law of this country is there to be complied with. It is not up to people to determine which acts are of less "negligible significance" than others.

gandalf

Cork lets get things into perspective here. Sinn Fein in its current form have never been in Government here, Cooper-Flynn or whatever name she goes by now has been in Government as part of FF and lied while she was a TD about her previous work with NIB going as far as to try and hard neck a Court Action when she knew she was wrong !!!! She aided people knowingly to evade tax and by the looks of it with her NIB colleagues on a grand scale. This is a disgrace that occured when the majority of people in this country were being taxed to the hilt. If she had any honour she would walk but she will do what the majority of FF politicians do she will try and ride it out sticking her 2 fingers up to the Irish Electorate.

As regards Joe Higgins he stood up for his principals and didn't even flinch eventhough it meant him serving time, I may not like the mans politics but I have to respect him for his convictions, to compare him to the people like Burke who was taking bribes and helping to create the planning disaster in Dublin and outlining areas along with Liam Lawlor, Haughey who was basically taking bribes and evading tax, or Michael Collins who was evading tax, Cooper-Flynn who was aiding people to evade tax is an arguement out of cloud cuckoo land.

Making a stand for principles is something that the scum in FF would not be capable of doing, they are a pack of jelly spined sleiveens in the pocket of big business in this country. Personally I would like to take them all out into a field and shoot them for the incompetence of the last 7 years. And right behind them I would line up their apologists.

Flukey

Cork, being expelled from the FF is not punishment, or is she missing out on all of their ill-gotten perks? A lot of people would see it as a good thing to be out of Fianna Fáil. I don't belong to any party, just in case you were wondering, so I can take a neutral view on this. Anyway, how long will it be before she is back in with them again? She still has her seat, so she has not lost anything.

Cork

gandalf wrote:

Sinn Fein in its current form have never been in Government here

But IRA rackets are costing the Irish excheqer revenue. SF has links to the IRA.

gandalf wrote:

This is a disgrace that occured when the majority of people in this country were being taxed to the hilt.

It is a disgrace both by the bank, its staff who sold such products and customers who availed of such products.

gandalf wrote:

incompetence of the last 7 years.

Bringing down personal taxation, brokering a peace agreement for NI, bring down unemployment, increasing spending on health, education, social welfare, investing in the future pension requirements of this county and investing in infrasture.

Compare this to the smallish social welfare increases of the last FG/Lab government.

In fact, Gandalf, even in the midst of a world wide recession - this government has done pretty well. Compare its preformance with previous Irish administrations.

As for Liam Lawlor, Burke etc. Are they even members of FF. I I think the tribunerals and courts should deal with them.

But issues like the awarding of the 2nd mobile phone licence, telenoe cheque are also before these tribunerals. These issues had nothing to do with FF. I raose them in the interest of balance.

I don't belong to any party

Niether do I.

She still has her seat, so she has not lost anything.

She is facing huge legal bills and She has been expelled from FF.

I believe personally in paying my taxes. I don't pay for refuse as I choose to recycle. But, I think work practices in forcing products onto unsuspecting members of the public and the elderly need to change.

I believe pushing investment products onto elderly customers is happening.

Evasion of taxes happened in many sectors ofsociety (nixers etc) and it happened in many banks.

This is no excuse for Beverly Flynn or NIB. But I feel that Irish banks do need proper codes of practice and ethics legalislation (brought in by FF to their credit) needs to be under regular review.

I am no judge, jury or which doctor, so I don't know what the future holds for Beverly Flynn. Will She fade away or will She make a comeback?

Some politicians involved in controversy have done both.

gandalf

Cork wrote:

But IRA rackets are costing the Irish excheqer revenue. SF has links to the IRA.

Never part of a modern Irish Government. Stop deflecting the subject. There are plenty of SF threads you can bitch on those! We are talking and FF and in particular Beverly Cooper Flynn.

It is a disgrace both by the bank, its staff who sold such products and customers who availed of such products.

And its a disgrace that a serving TD lied about the facts that she did sell them and tried to take a now apparent bogus court case because of it :rolleyes:

Bringing down personal taxation, brokering a peace agreement for NI, bring down unemployment, increasing spending on health, education, social welfare, investing in the future pension requirements of this county and investing in infrasture.

Compare this to the smallish social welfare increases of the last FG/Lab government.

Deflection again Cork. But if you want to travel that route. Increased stealf taxes, all parties were involved in the peace process, increased waste of funds in health: people are waiting longer for procedures, surgery, on trolleys in Casualty in excess of 16 hours. Basically costs have increased massively under this government with no return in productivity or accountability. Then we have the complete and utter waste of resources like the Bertie Bowl and Electronic voting.

In fact, Gandalf, even in the midst of a world wide recession - this government has done pretty well. Compare its preformance with previous Irish administrations.

The majority of economist have said it was a variety of Governments decisions over the past 30 years that created the atmosphere for the boom. As for them doing pretty well, they did dismally, they squandered one of the best chances we had to sort out the Health service.

As for Liam Lawlor, Burke etc. Are they even members of FF. I I think the tribunerals and courts should deal with them.

Cork please get your head out of that mount of sand. They were members and high ranking members of FF when they carried out all their crimes. Either people in FF turned a blind eye (at best) or they were involved in them also.

But issues like the awarding of the 2nd mobile phone licence, telenoe cheque are also before these tribunerals. These issues had nothing to do with FF. I raose them in the interest of balance.

Hmm I think you will have to agree that the VAST majority of corruption charges are levied at FF members or members when the incidents occured.

She is facing huge legal bills and She has been expelled from FF.

So do you think she is suitable to be a TD then Cork, DO YOU?

Cork

The majority of economist have said it was a variety of Governments decisions over the past 30 years that created the atmosphere for the boom

The IMF were knocking on this countrys door in the early 90's. This country was a basket case. After the Fg/Labour government of 1982-1987 had failed to control government spending.

they squandered one of the best chances we had to sort out the Health service.

They are the first government to look at the health area strategically and not on an electoral basis.

Throwing money at health won't improve it. Health Boards are no more. I think the various health stratergys now need full implementation.

gandalf wrote:

So do you think she is suitable to be a TD then Cork, DO YOU?

I don't. But She was elected & as a democrat, it is up to her electorate to make up their minds on Beverly Flynn.

Flukey

She is facing huge legal bills and She has been expelled from FF.

All true, but she hasn't been punished! People win cases and still have to pay legal bills, so that is not a punishment and I have already said her expulsion from FF is not a punishment.

vorbis

thats a bit of a technical answer tbh. If she's facing financial ruin, then thats punishment in a way. Are you looking for flogging or something?

Cork

Flukey wrote:

All true, but she hasn't been punished! People win cases and still have to pay legal bills, so that is not a punishment and I have already said her expulsion from FF is not a punishment.

There ware TDs in the Dail who had Ansbacker accounts from (if memory serves me right) from 2 political partys.

I think they lost the party whip & I think they later settled with the revenue.

I think that is a metter for the DPP, the revenue, the dail ethics committee and the courts to sanction.

Cork

vorbis wrote:

thats a bit of a technical answer tbh. If she's facing financial ruin, then thats punishment in a way. Are you looking for flogging or something?

I surpose - looking for a head constantly is a bit on a national pass time.

I read some journalists and I wonder how they sleep at night as they are so out raged about everything.

But, If he who has not sinned cast the first stone - as a nation we'd probably be forming a line with our stones.

Refusing to pay refuse charges on a point of "principle", not decalring credit union dividend, tax fraud, vat fraud, doing nixers etc are wrong.

The NIB report will probably go to the DPP and the DPP will then decide.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

The IMF were knocking on this countrys door in the early 90's. This country was a basket case. After the Fg/Labour government of 1982-1987 had failed to control government spending.

Yes, but the IMF policies of the early 90s have subsequently proven to have been far less than ideal.

In fact, if one looks at nations who the IMF was looking to chastise in the 90s for not following its model - like Ireland - and then compares it to nations who toed the IMF line, one will see a clear trend where not doing what the IMF insisted often led to a far better economy as a result. Indeed, if you only look at the iMF policy in terms of the specific area of government spending which you raise....you'll see that the model the FG/Labour government followed fits very closely with that of the other IMF-ignoring nations who also had strong economies in the 90s.

In defence of the current government somewhat, I do also feel obliged to point out that while they are due much criticism, critics should remember that the Irish economy has actually fared better than most in this current slowdown/recession phase. Growth in Ireland is currently second-best in the EU I believe, and if memory serves has consistently been highly ranked. Global economic trends are not the fault of our current government, and while they have been far from perfect, our economy has at least been maintained in a better condition than most of our peers in recent years.

Whether or not this will prove to be the best course in the long-run is a question no-one has the answer to.

They are the first government to look at the health area strategically and not on an electoral basis.

That doesn't excuse the fact that having looked at it, they proceeded to throw good money after bad to little effect.

Throwing money at health won't improve it.

Pity its taken FF 7 years and countless millions to realise this....which is what the criticism is about, Cork, in case you've missed it. Its amazing you're offering the criticism as a defence against itself. I mean....how does that work, exactly?

Not only that, but any noises we hear about improvement still carry the "warning label" that we'll need to spend even more before things get better.

I don't. But She was elected & as a democrat, it is up to her electorate to make up their minds on Beverly Flynn.

But given that the electorate only get to have a say come the next election, you seem to be saying that once elected, no member of the Dail should be removed from office for any reason. Instead, they should keep their seat and we should accept that the public would vote them out of office come the next election.

I don't think I even need to give an example of how ridiculous an idea that is, do I?

Its also funny considering that you can't seem to post in any thread in this forum without deriding Sinn Fein and complaining what they are allowed get away with and that something should be done about it, one would imagine that you'd actually be applying the same logic to them and accepting that as long as the public votes for them there is SFA we can or should do.

Sauce for the goose, Cork.

jc

Cork

bonkey wrote:

But given that the electorate only get to have a say come the next election, you seem to be saying that once elected, no member of the Dail should be removed from office for any reason. Instead, they should keep their seat and we should accept that the public would vote them out of office come the next election.
jc

But the NIB story broke well before the last general election. I know that the high court appeal andthe NIB were more recent.

But, I admit that when an electorate votes for sombody - there is little that can be done. Resigning Dail seats is rare.

When an electorate votes - It is very hard to debase their choice. It is democracy and I surpose mandates have to be respected.

Michael Lowry got elected as an independent twice.

star gazer

originally posted by CorkBut the NIB story broke well before the last general election. I know that the high court appeal andthe NIB were more recent.

Does that mean you think bertie was wrong to endorse her candidacy before the last election?

oscarBravo

potlatch wrote:

Higgins broke the law. But Higgins' 'crime' was political in nature, clearly motivated by the common good. There is some justification in what he, and many others, did. This was a relatively low-order example of conscientious objection.

Couple of things: Higgins' crime was contempt of court. If you don't consider that a serious crime, there's not much point having a judicial system. Also, you seem to be suggesting that it's OK to subjectively judge the seriousness of an offence when deciding whether it should result in the loss of a Dáil seat. Surely I'm not alone in thinking this is a bad idea?

gandalf

Contempt of court is one thing but contempt of the whole country as FF have engaged in is a far more serious matter imho

ionapaul

What are the odds BCF will be returned after the next general election as the poll-topper in her constituency, a la Lowry in the last two elections! What we love here in Ireland is the 'cute hoor', criminal or no.
The older I get the more I despair of my fellow men. I honestly believe most people in a democracy vote in the party their parents voted for, the dynasties they admire, without examining the issues or policies of one politician over the other. What was it that Homer said...'Democracy doesn't work'!
Once upon a time in a land far far away policiations resigned when such scandal emerged...but now the brass neck has replaced any sense of shame or dignity.

Cork

oscarBravo wrote:

Couple of things: Higgins' crime was contempt of court. If you don't consider that a serious crime, there's not much point having a judicial system. Also, you seem to be suggesting that it's OK to subjectively judge the seriousness of an offence when deciding whether it should result in the loss of a Dáil seat. Surely I'm not alone in thinking this is a bad idea?

Having a no bin changes campaign seems to be acceptable to some.

contempt of the whole country as FF have engaged in is a far more serious matter imho

Name one government in the history of the state that has done a better job with the economy?

The Fg/Lab High Tax Government of the 70's?
The FG/Lab High Emigration and Tax government of the 80's?

arcadegame2004

Well she was elected in 2002 in spite of the fact that all of these allegations were still swirling around her back then. Remember too that Michael Lowry was re-elected in spite of the Tribunal findings about him. If Bev resigned her seat she would probably win it again, such is the peculiar mindset of the electorate in some parts of the country.

Flukey

Cork, FF can't take all the credit for the Celtic Tiger economy. There are factors in that that go well back before it, like Donogh O'Malley's introduction of free second-level education in the 1960's. There are factors beyond these shores too. The Celtic Tiger was well up and coming when FF took power in 1997. It is always the case. Anything good that happens is down to what the government is doing and anything bad that is happening is down to what an opposition's government did before them. No one party or government can take the credit or blame for most things that are happening. The economy was growing long before the current government started its first term and that was down to what a lot of governments have done. Equally things like the state of the health services is down to what successive governments, not any one of them has done. The current government can take some, but not all the credit for what the economy is currently like.

DadaKopf

Cork wrote:

The Fg/Lab High Tax Government of the 70's?
The FG/Lab High Emigration and Tax government of the 80's?

No, actually, timing had a lot to do with it. Our economic success, judged in terms of convergence with the European core countries, is down to a number of long-term decisions that were made over a space of 30 years, all of which dovetailed in the mid-1990s.

This paper clearly illustrates that Irish economic growth was due mainly to a number of concurrent "beneficial shocks", which had been in place for some time:

• The earliest explanation is investment in education from the 1960s; Ireland was the worst of all OECD countries, but improved to the point of being only slightly below the OECD mean by 1996
• Joining the EEC, however, had the most profound effect on the economy and, thus, the transformation in the 1990s is attributable to external conditions and constraints placed on Ireland from the 1970s, which became increasingly internalised. Joining the EU had, itself, a major influence on the following long-term policies in the 1980s
• The transition in Ireland from the largest agricultural exporter in Europe (as % of GDP) to an exporter of intermediate and high manufactured goods to Europe was very important; joining the EEC had the effect of reducing our dependency on agricultural exports to the UK with low value-added, but the Common Agricultural Policy negatively affected growth
• A reduction in public share of gross capital formation from 30-40% in the 1950s to 15% around the 1990s contributed to the reduction of macroeconomic instablity
• A move away in the 1980s from a Thatcherite policy of weak trade unionism to the mainland European "corporatist welfare" model; this enabled the state to reduce public expenditure and to lower taxes by ensuring that state employees' wages would not decline and, across the board, investment and incomes in the private sector would improve
• Reductions in public expenditure included the breaking up and privatization of public enterprises that were considered anti-competitive; particularly important in this regard was airline deregulation (and reduced taxes) which had the effect of reducing ticket prices by 50% overnight, encouraging tourism and improving business linkages and foreign direct investment
• The IDA, of course, was the first of its kind and had, for decades been working to attract FDI, which EEC membership enhanced greatly
• Most crucially of all was the doubling of EU structural adjustment funds in 1989, which filled much needed investment gaps and, particularly in th area of road infrastructure, succeeded in producing 0.5% of total GDP growth in the early 1990s.

So, in most respects, many of reasons for Irish growth either stem from policies that were implemented decades ago or previous governments in the late 1980s and early 1990s, or they stem from things that happened to us.

As is the case across Europe and the world in general, national governments have become managers who try to tame the turbulence of market forces rather than effective policymakers. As such, most of the work this government has done has been to slash public expenditure to attract investment (and capital outflows are huge), but at what longer-term costs?

For an assessment of the social impact of more recent Irish policies, take a look at Macroeconomic success and social vulnerability: lessons for Latin America from the Celtic Tiger.

oscarBravo

Cork wrote:

Having a no bin changes campaign seems to be acceptable to some.

It's perfectly acceptable to me - people should be allowed to have any campaign they want. But that's not what he was jailed for, and that's my point.

Mighty_Mouse

I think that evading tax is wrong and giving advice to evade tax is wrong. But Beverly Cooper was an employee of this bank. Should all ex employees of the bank face similar sanction?

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem if Bev came out at the time and said: "I'm sorry. I was 23 years old just starting out. I was under pressure from my employers and should of taken a different decision at the time". To me that’s acceptable.

What’s not acceptable is point blank refusing to acknowledge that she has done anything. The air of "can't touch me, I'm a Flynn" about her was grotesquely sickening.

But to have the balls (neck!) to drag Charlie Bird through the civil courts for FIVE years in order to intimidate him into settling was just wrong. For those five years she knew she was lying but yet persecuted him for telling the truth. The woman deserves everything she gets and I suppose the sleazy Flynn family deserve each other. The apple certainly didnt fall far from the tree there!

ionapaul

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

The woman deserves everything she gets and I suppose the sleazy Flynn family deserve each other. The apple certainly didnt fall far from the tree there!

Not a truer word written! Her father is definitely worse than Bev, if that is possible. Now that I think of it he is much worse - remember how he complained at the difficulties in keeping three houses at once?! I really feel your pain there Pee, would hate to have the responsibility of owning three different homes. Sure wasn't he was justified in taking the bribes, the country just didn't pay him a decent enough salary to keep him in the manner he became accustomed to!
And if he ran for the Dail tomorrow in Mayo, he would top the poll I'm sure...