Charlie McCreevy to become Euro Commissioner -- pity

patto_chan

Just on tonight's RTE 9.00 news.

I think it's a pity. He has been a brilliant finance minister. He has proved that low taxes can boost an economy and - paradoxically - can increase government revenues.

I hope it does (edit) not (edit) signify a return to Fianna Fail's past of fiscal irresponsibility.:(

AngelofFire

yeah pity,what are all them racecourse owners gonna do without the massive tax exemptions they were given:rolleyes:

article6

This should be an interesting reshuffle so... Brian Cowen for Finance?

cyclopath2001

Mary Harney, who else could implement Decentralisation?

sceptre

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
Mary Harney, who else could implement Decentralisation?

Oh, I think the Candy Man can. Cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good. Time to hire some Oompa Loompas.

gom

The PD marriage stops at the purse.
Ahern would never give his wife in government access to his wallet.

Finance = Cowen

To be honest. Its a pity that McCreevy is gone from a Labour loving prospective. With McCreevy out of the picture Ahern is safe. There is enough room to reshuffle and maintaine the status quo.
If there is any decision Bertie doesn't ever make its one that makes him enemies with in his own party that may one day take his head...

gandalf

Not a major surprise given the last few days speculation.

All I can say is thank god it wasn't O'Donoghue or Walsh (McGreedy is not much better but the best of bad bunch!). I have no idea who will take over from him. I would assume it would have to be someone with financial know how (or with links to the racing industry ). Can't see Cowen getting it. Harney maybe except it would piss off the rank and file of FF.

shotamoose

Does this mean that McCreevy will get a relatively high-powered job at the Commission? Because that has been part of the speculation in recent days, and I also find it hard to imagine that he'd have surrendered his current job without some kind of guarantee.

I'm quite surprised Bertie has gone through with it to be honest, given that McCreevy has been in standard terms a pretty succesful Finance Minister. Is Bertie really doing this to appease the left-of-centres in FF? How is Mata Harney going to feel without her best bud?

mike65

McCreevy won't be after fisheries or some such, could be interesting. At home Biffo might well be the joker in the pack for finance.

Mike.

Mr.Bojangles

Apparently he will get quite a large portfolio.

If Cohen gets finance (he has my bet) who will go Foreign?

De Rebel

Originally posted by Mr.Bojangles
Apparently he will get quite a large portfolio.

If Cohen gets finance (he has my bet) who will go Foreign?

Cowen to Finance, Martin probably gets Justice (he is not keen on iveagh house cause his family are young and he is adverse to the travel - might take it though to have on his CV for when bertie gets the chop, its seen as the next best prize after finance) Harney is probably going to get transport, McDougal has always wanted foreigh affairs but that would kill half the FFers, but might oddly enough tempt Bertie to give it to him out of badness and to neutralise some of the pretenders!!

My bet would be Dermot Ahern if Martin does not take it. Outsides would be Harney and McDowel.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by De Rebel
Cowen to Finance, Martin probably gets Justice (he is not keen on iveagh house cause his family are young and he is adverse to the travel - might take it though to have on his CV for when bertie gets the chop, its seen as the next best prize after finance) Harney is probably going to get transport, McDougal has always wanted foreigh affairs but that would kill half the FFers, but might oddly enough tempt Bertie to give it to him out of badness and to neutralise some of the pretenders!!

I hope you're right about Mary Harney. She would make a great Transport Minister and hopefully speed up the neo-liberal economic agenda (which I share) in that part of the public-sector. But if Seamus Brennan stays in that post then that too is okay I guess, since he shares much of her ideas on that score, though I feel she would want to take it further and faster.

I wouldn't be so sure if I were you that McDowell will be moved from Justice. The PD's would probably walk out of Government rather than have one of their own moved without the party's consent. FF would be wise to listen to them with a by-election coming up in Kildare North which pundits believe, based on the local-election results, will be lost by FF.

Moving Cowen to finance would probably be a signal that Bertie wants him to succeed him, and I won't prejudge him considering we know little of his economic outlook. Even so, the speculation of recent days - seemingly confirmed by the moving of McCreevy to Brussels - is likely to herald a shift in the ideological balance of the Cabinet to the Centre or Centre-Left, and I definitely don't welcome that.

You only have to look at the plan by ESB to raise charges by 14% to see why we need more competition in that sector. The Left though would want to continue forcing a monopoly down the throats of the Irish people. We should have the right to choose a different power-company.

thejollyrodger

Our BEST minister for Finance EVER and Bertie the Shmuck ships him off to the job in Brussels... what a sham of a country!! I well fcuked off

"If you have it, spend it, if you dont have it, dont spend it", why cant everyone accept this and keep one of our greatest ministers ever !

Looks like were back to the 80's now and more money will be wasted in the likes of Health where THERE IS NO REFORMS but money will be thrown down the black hole


The only upshot i can see, is the new minister increasing the Department of Defence spending from 0.8%GDP to back to its orginal 1.6%GDP

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
You only have to look at the plan by ESB to raise charges by 14% to see why we need more competition in that sector. The Left though would want to continue forcing a monopoly down the throats of the Irish people. We should have the right to choose a different power-company.

Actually most of the recent ESB increases were imposed by the regulator to encourage more companies into the sector, the 14% was the result of the increasing price of oil.

As for McCreevey, weren't his stealth taxes at least partly responsible for the poor showing by FF in the recent elections? Are we soon to be paying a VRT style tax on onions? Will he once and for all straighten out our bananas? Will his new salary be able to bridge the gap in his teeth? We wait with baited breath....

seamus

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
"If you have it, spend it, if you dont have it, dont spend it", why cant everyone accept this and keep one of our greatest ministers ever !

Because that's no way to run a country's finances. "Spend it when you have it" is fine for a young fella with only rent to pay - he'd be mad not to. But once he settles down and has kids, it's a dangerous game to play.

The Finance minister has a family of 4,000,000 to look after. Spreading around all available funds gives him a nice glean, but not when he has to go dipping into pension funds and adding stealth taxes to keep up his promises.

Villain

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Our BEST minister for Finance EVER and Bertie the Shmuck ships him off to the job in Brussels... what a sham of a country!! I well fcuked off

"If you have it, spend it, if you dont have it, dont spend it", why cant everyone accept this and keep one of our greatest ministers ever !

Looks like were back to the 80's now and more money will be wasted in the likes of Health where THERE IS NO REFORMS but money will be thrown down the black hole

He spend it before the last election to win votes then backtracked after and introduced stealth taxes.

As for your comment on Health did you not see the recent reports about all the newly built premises that are lying empty because there is no money for staffing, that doesn't need reform (other areas do I agree) it just needs money to employ the staff.

e.g

A €96 million wing at St James Connolly hospital is mostly vacant

A brand new €46 millon health center in Ballymun was completed a year and a half ago but has remained empty despite the NOrthern area health board has spent €5million in rent for the facility

A €24 surgical building at South Tipperary General Hospital has been lying idle for 16 months because the Department of Finance won't supply the €2 million to pay for staffing

A €2.8 million 90 bed elderly care unit in Birr reamins unoccupied

A €10.5 million Orthopaeic unit in Castlebar Co. Mayo was to be up and running on July 1st last but has been delayed due to a lack of funding

etc etc

thejollyrodger

the new minister increasing the Department of Defence spending from 0.8%GDP to back to its orginal 1.6%GDP

The new Minister HAS to increase defence speading to its former (even small at that) levels !! No where else in Europe would a government be allowed to get away with that

LoneGunM@n

Accroding to today's Irish Independent:

there is widespread speculation he (Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso) will create a new "super commissioner" to oversee economic matters. The Taoiseach will have lobbied the former Portuguese Prime Minister, whom he helped secure the job as Commission President, that Mr. McCreevy would be perfect for the key position in the 25-strong executive that takes office in November

BUMP!

Our BEST minister for Finance EVER and Bertie the Shmuck ships him off to the job in Brussels... what a sham of a country!! I well fcuked off

The man did ok but was a (fortunate) victim of the economic boom when a moderately trained chimp could have run finance in this country. It's true to say that taxes are down but the introduction of stealth taxes penalises the poor (no longer dictated by what you can afford) and leaves the wealthy better off than before. (Your bin tax is a higher % to a man on a low wage than to someone on a high wage)

I wouldn't go for the health issue though - he has increased spending to what should be sufficient levels and if the health minister cant get by with (double is it?) this much more money then he should be given the chop. I've no objection to a tight grip on purse strings - as long as it also applies to the govt themselves (govt jets being used as taxi's, punchestown, huge wages,...)

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004


You only have to look at the plan by ESB to raise charges by 14% to see why we need more competition in that sector. The Left though would want to continue forcing a monopoly down the throats of the Irish people. We should have the right to choose a different power-company.

Is there any thread in the politics forum that you're not going to trot this gem out in? Do you need to keep repeating yourself to convince yourself of the merits of your argument?

I'm going to call you Cork Jr from now on...

Sand

Real shame to see him go - He wasnt perfect but he was without doubt the best Minister for Finance this country has ever been graced with. The fact that so many FF backbenchers blamed him should be confirmation of just how good he was.

Hopefully this wont signal a FF return to failed lefty spend and spend polices. The one good that might come out of it is that Ahern might ditch the crazed decentralisation plan.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by irish1
He spend it before the last election to win votes then backtracked after and introduced stealth taxes.

As for your comment on Health did you not see the recent reports about all the newly built premises that are lying empty because there is no money for staffing, that doesn't need reform (other areas do I agree) it just needs money to employ the staff.

e.g

A €96 million wing at St James Connolly hospital is mostly vacant

A brand new €46 millon health center in Ballymun was completed a year and a half ago but has remained empty despite the NOrthern area health board has spent €5million in rent for the facility

A €24 surgical building at South Tipperary General Hospital has been lying idle for 16 months because the Department of Finance won't supply the €2 million to pay for staffing

A €2.8 million 90 bed elderly care unit in Birr reamins unoccupied

A €10.5 million Orthopaeic unit in Castlebar Co. Mayo was to be up and running on July 1st last but has been delayed due to a lack of funding

etc etc

This is hardly the legacy of the "Best Finance Minister we have ever had".The exchequer this year recieved an extra €1,000 million in revenue whilst public spending is €600 million short of target. A minute amount of this extra funding could open these hospital wards mentioned by Irish1.Instead charlie gives his friends in the racing business €100 million to build a training centre in punchestown and spends millions of euro of public money on tax free prices for Jockeys.Because of McCreevy`s failure to provide funding to open these wards, waiting lists are now longer than they were when Fianna Fail promised to end them 2 years ago.

Ok he did preside over a boombing economy and he deserves some credit for that.But time after time he has neglected services that need the money most.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by AngelofFire
This is hardly the legacy of the "Best Finance Minister we have ever had".The exchequer this year recieved an extra €1,000 million in revenue whilst public spending is €600 million short of target. A minute amount of this extra funding could open these hospital wards mentioned by Irish1.Instead charlie gives his friends in the racing business €100 million to build a training centre in punchestown and spends millions of euro of public money on tax free prices for Jockeys.Because of McCreevy`s failure to provide funding to open these wards, waiting lists are now longer than they were when Fianna Fail promised to end them 2 years ago.

The Government doubled health-spending and during the period when spending was out of control the problems in the Health-Service continued. People like you are wrong to imply that throwing money at the Health-Service was solve its problems. Too much money is being eaten up in administration and vested interests, as well as wasteful duplication of resources, e.g. two hospitals near each other with exactly the same facilities. The Hanly report needs to be implemented (with the possibly exception of its recommendations on centralising A+E services) in order to free up money for problems like what you are talking about. The drunks that crowd the A+E wards every weekend could also do the hospitals a favour by not getting drunk and then turning up at the hospitals and clogging up the A+E wards in place of far more deserving cases who didn't deliberatly and stupidly get themselves into that situation. They should be made to pay for their treatment given that they are putting themselves in that situation, then see how often it happens!

Victor

So Charlie got decentralised

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The Government doubled health-spending and during the period when spending was out of control the problems in the Health-Service continued. People like you are wrong to imply that throwing money at the Health-Service was solve its problems. Too much money is being eaten up in administration and vested interests, as well as wasteful duplication of resources

You know, you are right. What sort of idiots are running the show that allowed this to happen?

PS Didn't state employment jump by 14,000 just before the last election?

jank

It will be interesting what the resuffle will be like, I think Martin is wasted where he is but only time will tell if his pollices are working (so far its been a big NO!!), although any other job apart from finance and forgein affairs

Villain

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The Government doubled health-spending and during the period when spending was out of control the problems in the Health-Service continued. People like you are wrong to imply that throwing money at the Health-Service was solve its problems. Too much money is being eaten up in administration and vested interests, as well as wasteful duplication of resources, e.g. two hospitals near each other with exactly the same facilities. The Hanly report needs to be implemented (with the possibly exception of its recommendations on centralising A+E services) in order to free up money for problems like what you are talking about. The drunks that crowd the A+E wards every weekend could also do the hospitals a favour by not getting drunk and then turning up at the hospitals and clogging up the A+E wards in place of far more deserving cases who didn't deliberatly and stupidly get themselves into that situation. They should be made to pay for their treatment given that they are putting themselves in that situation, then see how often it happens!

Well your wrong to say that throwing money won't solve the problems, I 100% agree it won't solve all the problems, but the units I have listed above simply need money made available to staff them, surely it would make sense to make this money available rather than have beds lie empty while people spend hours on trolleys in A&E departments.

I worked in the Public sector for a brief period, and I couldn't agree more than reform is needed, whether it is in the form of teh Hanly report is open to discussion.

The Minister for Finance needs to make money available to open these facilitys that the tax payers have paid for.

BUMP!

I think the trouble with just giving them the extra money is - well taking the hospital in Clonmel, where 2million is needed to staff the new unit, if you were to give them that money then it wouldn't just go to the extra staff but would be eaten up by other depts who are strangled for cash. Although saying that, that 100 mill that went to punchestown would have opened alot of wings!!!
The whole sector needs to be reformed, it has to be transparent where money goes, wages need to become realistic, and staff conditions need to improve (working hours etc.) before there really is any point in putting too much money in.

Although the old FF trick usually is - save the money, leave the beds sitting there and come election time, open them all up which (along with the spec save scheme) will make voters happy- if only long enough to get voted back in...

AngelofFire

Irish 1 is right,All these units require is money to be opened.But money isnt going to solve all the problems with the health service.Too much money is spent on administration.Proper reform is needed,but that would mean taking on the civil servants,something most politicians wouldn`t have the balls to do.

Cork

Originally posted by AngelofFire
This is hardly the legacy of the "Best Finance Minister we have ever had".

He was & his record will put him up there with Sean Lameas. He brought down tax for somebody on the average industrial wage by €5000 in his first five budgets. He transformed both the taxation and pension systems.

Put his record up aganist any other finance Minister. He took strategic decisions by putting money into the National Pensions Reserves Fund. He put money into the infrastructure of this country like no other minister before him.

He point blank refused to throw money at problems for short term political reasons.

We need more people like Charlie McCreevy in Irish Politics. Much of the criticisms of Charlie McCreevy has been predictable.

Charlie McCreevy put money back into everybodys pockets thru tax cuts and SSIAs.

He gave people the choice of how to spend their hard earned money.

He was responsible with this countrys finances. In a week where one so called left wing party political party could not cope with the Irish Examiner criticising their daft economic policies. Charlie Mc Creevy always believed in reform and putting money back into peoples pockets.

He will be missed.

Sand

Its odd that Charlie is getting blamed for not spending enough on Health when the Health service has never had so much spent on it, and everyone agrees that more money is not the solution but full scale reform, which is A) Not politically palatable - democracy doesnt always make for good government and Not Charlies responsibility.

Hes done well what hes been called upon to do. Not perfect, not above criticism, but I cant think of a better Finance minister - especially one whose operated under so much stress to spend and spend ( I swear, if I hear another union lobbyist whinging about the "country being awash with money" Ill go mad ). The fact thats hes been pushed out to prepare the way for bad economic policy speaks volumes.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Cork


He will be missed.

Only by the upper and business classes to whom he gave massive tax concessions who im sure are crying into their soups. What about the fact that he cut back on spending for special needs people and from the school building fund.

Not to mention the spending cut in 3rd level education and community employment schemes.Our education system was pivotal in bringing about the celtic tiger.This is a hypocritical and cynical act from the man who is supposed to be trying to "maintain economic growth"

Cork

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Only by the upper and business classes to whom he gave massive tax concessions who im sure are crying into their soups.

This is nonsense. Charlie McCreevy cut taxes for those on the AVERAGE industrial wage by €5000 in his first 5 budgets.

Long term unemployment fell due to good management of the ecomony. There was no need to maintain that level of jobs on CE schemes.

A lot of criticism is nothing more than begrudgery. We had the sad spectecle of an ex social welfare minister last week criticisng Charlie McCreevy. That very same ex social welfare minister was not known for very large social welfare increases.

The Irish education system did very little for our economy when FG and Labour were managing our econmy from 1982 to 1987. What helped our economy was fiscal policy - putting money bak into workers pockets.

Maintaining CE schemes and social employment schemes when unemployment is 4% is crazy.

It makes no sense. This government in all fairness has put more in to school buildings than previous administrations.

Avoid all the socialist inspired criticisms of Charlie McCreevy. He will indeed be remembered for achievemnt & history will remember him with Sean Lamass and TK Witiker.

AngelofFire

Lemass and Whitaker brought in the free education act. Giving free education to all primary and secondary school children,this was pivotal in creating the conditions which led to the economic boom, greater equity between social classes had been created by the time Lemass had left office.

In spite of the unprecedented economic growth there is much more inequality in irish society than there was 7 years ago, and its no accident.One cannot just say he has done a great job and ignore his culpability.I strongly refute any PD inspired statements that spending money to help create equity between social classes inhibits economic growth.Ok we do have low unemployment but lack of funding for CE schemes means that people who are currently unemployed are finding it difficult to find good jobs.It would of made more economic and social sense to cut back on the massive concessions given to racecourse owners.

Cork

You look at the big fall in long term unemployment. It was not nessary to maintain the level of CE jobs.

The Celtic tiger was of much more benefit to the long term unemployed than all the CE schemes that existed.

When you have skills shortages in areas - maintaining levels on CE schemes made very little social or economic sense.

AngelofFire

But what about unskilled people who have a stark choice between unemployment and a €280 per week job,Surely CE schemes would benefit them, they would be in a position to benefit from a wider choice of Jobs with better wages.

Cork

Originally posted by AngelofFire
But what about unskilled people who have a stark choice between unemployment and a €280 per week job,Surely CE schemes would benefit them, they would be in a position to benefit from a wider choice of Jobs with better wages.

CE schemes are still in existance with with the fall in long term unemployment. The number of places on such schemes was cut.

The celtic tiger brought many jobs to those who were long term unemployment. This is bourne out by quarterly household surveys. As a result of many long term unemployed getting jobs - the existing schemes were cut back.

As finance minister - you had to take cognisence of the falling numbers of long term unemployed.

Maintaining schemes in the face of falling unemployment made little sense.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Cork

As finance minister - you had to take cognisence of the falling numbers of long term unemployed.

Maintaining schemes in the face of falling unemployment made little sense.

That is true. But in 2002 unemployment had risen marginally yet money was cut from CE schemes.Community employment has suffered, I know people working in my local enterprise centre who are finding it difficult in getting some people back to work because of lack of funding for the schemes.

Cork

Originally posted by AngelofFire
That is true. But in 2002 unemployment had risen marginally yet money was cut from CE schemes.Community employment has suffered, I know people working in my local enterprise centre who are finding it difficult in getting some people back to work because of lack of funding for the schemes.

CE schemes are not cheap. Unemployment was much lower in 2002 than when CE schemes where first introduced.

So, schemes had to be cut back. They simply could not be maintained and had to be cut back in line with the decrease in long term unemployment.

Returm to Education schemes for the long term unemployed remained uneffected.

I would much prefer to see the long term umemployed in jobs than in CE or FAS schemes.

This is what haapened with our economy. But some CE schemes were worthwhile and CE schemes are better for the long term unemployed than being on welfare.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Cork


I would much prefer to see the long term umemployed in jobs than in CE or FAS schemes.

.

But the CE schemes give them a chance to avail of better jobs with higher pay.Therefore they would be earning more and paying more tax to the exchequer than they would be if they were in low wage jobs packing shelves in a super markets which would see them on and off the dole in between Jobs .Unemployed people deserve the dignity of having the opportunity to improve themselves with better and more secure jobs.

People are finding it hard to get a decent job these days because of lack of funding for CE schemes.Funding for these schemes isn`t proportional with the current rate of unemployment.

Cork

But the places on these schemes should coralate with the numbers of long term unemployed.

There is nobody doubting the value of some of these schemes but the arrival of the Celtic tiger and the robust proformace of the economy during the last couple of years - cutting back numbers was prudant.

Return to work programmes and courses such as FIT are better for re-skilling than many CE schemes.

But the CE schemes give them a chance to avail of better jobs with higher pay.

Return to work programmes often award qualifications such as Fetec. CE schemes are often more work that education orientated.

arcadegame2004

AngelofFire, you need to realise that economic inequality is inevitable in a capitalist society. There will also be poor people in any country - name one where there isn't. While it is not unfeasible for a Government to increase social-welfare by the rate-of-inflation each year, it is unreasonable to expect the increase to amount to the rate-of-increase in salaries nowadays. So economic inequality is inevitable. Social-welfare has increased considerably under this government. People themselves have to go out and look for jobs.

AngelofFire

So to sum it up arcadegame , you believe that society should make people work low pay jobs instead of giving them the support to put themselves in a position to get better jobs because its good for the economy?. I for one do not agree with that ideology.however i agree that there will always be some inequality but i dont believe that greater equity between socio economic backgrounds inhibits economic progress.

Typedef

Originally posted by Sand
Real shame to see him go - He wasnt perfect but he was without doubt the best Minister for Finance this country has ever been graced with. The fact that so many FF backbenchers blamed him should be confirmation of just how good he was.

Hopefully this wont signal a FF return to failed lefty spend and spend polices. The one good that might come out of it is that Ahern might ditch the crazed decentralisation plan.

Oddly enough, I totally agree.

Sand.... have you been reading my thoughts again?


Also AngelofFire, I have to say, that, in an economy with full employment, indeed an economy which should be importing people to make up for the shortfalls in the jobs market, it's a bit of a misnomer to 'feel' for the masses drawing the dole.

Whatever racist ideals may exist about foreigners defrauding the social welfware, the simple fact is that 'exponentially' more Irish people do so, in areas where there is endemic 'generations' of the perpetually unemployed. Perhaps twenty years ago, you, could have put a poor mouth on and said "there are no jobs", because there weren't, but, in modern Ireland, unless you are an invalid, if you don't have a job, it's because you won't work.

That's what full employment implies. Shockingly, though, the entire welfare system simply allows people to loaf off the State and spend their days, in the Betting houses, in the Public houses, getting stoned or doing whatever it is the people who won't work do.

Should those people get money for nothing? No. Do these people exist?

Try walking through Summer Hill or around Parnell street some Monday morning around about 11 am. Notice the queues of people for the pub, and the bookies and ask yourself, why it is exactly that men/women of a working age, should be 'allowed' and indeed sanctioned into doing nothing, drawing taxpayer's money and sponging off of the State?

This is by far the more henious crime, but, you'll notice since it's 'white' voters who are doing it, you don't get the chorus of 'not-racist' ideologues, decrying the 'white Irish' getting free cars/houses/money for the pub off of the State.

Of course, none of that is racist.

AngelofFire

I dont have much time for a minority of people who are drawing the dole without good reason. I just believe that people on welfare who want to should be given a chance to better themselves and get back into good jobs through employment schemes,rather than having a stark choice between being handed out €150 per week on welfare and earning €280 per week in low pay jobs. Having that stark choice is not much of an incentive to work and schemes could help them get into higher paying jobs which could serve as careers for life.

It would be more of an incentive to have a choice between €150 per week on the dole and €400 per week in a good secure Job than the stark choice between welfare and a low pay minimum wage job.

Im sure some of the unemployed who spend their days in the bookies could be attracted by that prospect.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
He was & his record will put him up there with Sean Lameas. He brought down tax for somebody on the average industrial wage by €5000 in his first five budgets. He transformed both the taxation and pension systems.

You are being quiet assertive on this? Any back up?

Also note that there are very few people these days on the average industrial wage (the vast majority work in the lower paid services sector) and the average industrial wage includes pay to managerial grades.

arcadegame2004

AngelofFire. by working in lower-paid jobs they can attain vital experience that in time will help them qualify for better-paid jobs. I am not attacking the social-welfare system and I recognise that a just society cannot aim to put people in a state of perpetual poverty. I totally accept the need for disability-benefits, as well as unemployment-benefit. I don't think we should go down the harsh road the US has thread with regard to severe cuts in social-welfare. And of course, the elderly of this country have every right to their pensions (though in the long run, I believe that we will need to make a transition to compulsory private-pensions, such will be the strain created on the public-finances with regard to pensions due to the falling birth-rates and the consequent likely fall in the ratio of taxpayers to pensioners).

But governments must try to incentivise the unemployment to find jobs. A low tax policy is needed that does not make getting a job barely better financially than living on benefits, or even worse off.

AngelofFire

Im in favour of low taxes for those on the PAYE sector.And i applauded some of McCreevy`s economic measures,but i do believe that instead of cutting money from Welfare and special needs people taxation should increase slightly (2-3 percentage points perhaps) for those earning in excess of €80,000 in order to create equity between social classes.We really need three tax bands instead of the current two which see a lot of people in the PAYE sector paying the higher rate of taxation.

Cork

But governments must try to incentivise the unemployment to find jobs. A low tax policy is needed that does not make getting a job barely better financially than living on benefits, or even worse off.

Charlie McCreevy put money back into peoples pockets. He made the whole tax system fairer.

He trnsformed pensions and encouraged people to save. He also saw the merit of setting up the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

by working in lower-paid jobs they can attain vital experience that in time will help them qualify for better-paid jobs.

Agreed. I am currently working at a job that I have little interest in. I am not really getting any experience. But It pays the bills. I am certainly making little use of my qualifications. But It pays the bills & it gives me time to complete some study. I would love to sit around watching daytime TV and to claim a medical card, rent allownce etc, but it is far better to be out there working.

We had the spectacle of an Irish MEP denouncing Charlie McCreevy in the European parliament last week - but when this guy was social welfare minister - he was not known for his generosity to social welfare recipiants.

Yet Charlie McCreevy vastly increased the health, education and social welfare budgets while giving people more disposable income to spend.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
. And of course, the elderly of this country have every right to their pensions (though in the long run, I believe that we will need to make a transition to compulsory private-pensions, such will be the strain created on the public-finances with regard to pensions due to the falling birth-rates and the consequent likely fall in the ratio of taxpayers to pensioners).

I would agree with that if it meant lower PRSI and better value for money regardless of socio economic background, and that it didnt put a strain on low earners .ie if the government could intervene and pay for private pensions for people on low income.

Sand

Sand.... have you been reading my thoughts again?

Nah, youre just slipping deeper and deeper into conservatism as you get older. Before long youll be voting for collective punishment, bulldozing housing estates to deal with juvenile crime and increasing taxes on the poor so that they pull their weight and so on.

just believe that people on welfare who want to should be given a chance to better themselves and get back into good jobs through employment schemes,rather than having a stark choice between being handed out €150 per week on welfare and earning €280 per week in low pay jobs.

Wasnt there that Steve Martin filim Parenthood where Steves deadbeat brother in law was always holding out for that management position? Lets be clear here - the dole is there to act as a safety net, not as an alternative to work. Its not right that in a situation where jobs are available that the state should be wasting money on people, who in the words of Ned Flanders, "just dont feel like working, god bless them" - the money thats spent on them could be spent elsewhere more usefully and indeed vitally.

And of course, the elderly of this country have every right to their pensions (though in the long run, I believe that we will need to make a transition to compulsory private-pensions, such will be the strain created on the public-finances with regard to pensions due to the falling birth-rates and the consequent likely fall in the ratio of taxpayers to pensioners).

To be honest, this needs to be started now - the situation is grave long term so steps to alleviate the crisis are best taken sooner rather than later.