paganism and evil

rcunning03

I know paganism doesn't believe in good and evil, but how does it explain such things like that guy in Belgium that killed all those kids.


From what I can make out paganism believes in balance i.e. night/day etc. So should there not be a balance between good and evil (lets just call evil harming or killing someone). I know paganism has a kind of karma where good or bad deeds return 3 fold, but what happens in a situation where a serial killer dies without going to jail ?

Do pagans believe in such things as demons ?(I know the traditional christain image of satan was the church's way of ridiculing pagan gods)


I had a great book by Kate West that explained all this but my Brother borrowed it and never returned it and if your type in paganism and evil on a search engine, you can just imagine what kind of results you'd get. Baiscally I just want to know how paganism explains good and evil.

fragile

wikipedia.com

rcunning03

Basically this is what I meant to say.

http://www.wiccanweb.ca/sections-article-47-1.html

But this guy has got better use of words than wot I got.

Ancient1

I know paganism has a kind of karma where good or bad deeds return 3 fold, but what happens in a situation where a serial killer dies without going to jail ?

How do you mean?
What do you expect to happen in a situation like that?

rcunning03

What do you expect to happen in a situation like that?

I don't know, I was just wondering if anybody had any ideas on it.

Ancient1

These are highly relative, very broad and philosophical terms - it's kind of difficult to apply them to a situation like "where a serial killer dies without going to jail ".

It depends i suppose on how you define paganism and what values "paganism" holds for you.

rcunning03

Pagan values are very important to me, connection with nature, do what you will as long as it harms no one and I believe we have lost so much in our conversion to christainity and the world would be a much nicer (physically as well as spiritually) place if we all held these values.

I know getting into the whole punishment in the afterlife is a very dangerous subject to get into, cause then you have to start defining what is right and wrong and when you do that religion turns into something that is used to control people (i.e. Do what we say or spend eternity in damnation). Very few things are black and white, even in the case of a serial killer nearly all the time they are victimns of rejection, lousy childhoods, feelings of powerlessness and they kill for the sense of power.

At the same time though, if everybody goes to the summerlands when they die, one could argue that it's ok to kill someone for cutting you off in traffic or that poor or disabled people should be killed cause they will go to a better place, but anyone that would make an arguement like that would rightly be classified as a psychopath, cause we all know that is wrong.

Generally the 3 fold idea works great, cause we know there is a difference between good deeds and bad deeds and as pagans we can buy amulets and charms to protect us from evil spirits, but sometimes people do go un-punished e.g. White collar criminal that rips off a pension scheme and then spends the rest of their life living in the south of spain playing golf, under karma rules that person would then reincarnate as somebody living on the poverty line.

Paganism seems to shy away from the whole issue of right and wrong cause we have had 2000 years of the major religions banging on about it and using it as a method of control. i.e we are all sinners due to the fact of been born because of original sin and need to redeem ourselves by letting the church dictate to us how we live our lives (basically do nothing that gives you even the slighest amount of enjoyment).

Maybe it's the 29 years of Catholic programming that has me asking the question about punishment in the afterlife, but paganism has answered everything else for me and we all know that killing someone without reason is wrong and that there is bad out there, otherwise the 3 fold rule wouldn't exist and there would be no charms to ward off evil, I was just wondering what would happen in a situation when people go unpunished, but it's a very difficult subject cause practically nothing is black and white, I mean if we came across a situation where we and our family could spend the rest of our lives in the south of Spain just relaxing and enjoying life who wouldn't take that opportunity, by ripping off a pension scheme it's not like your killing anyone and the state provides a pension.

You should read that article on the link I posted, it doesn't provide any answers to the question but it's very well written and the more I think about the question the more I think it's best left unanswered cause defining right and wrong is when things turn nasty.

Ancient1

Paganism doesnt necessarily shy away from the issue of right and wrong, but those issues seem to me to be predominantly christian concepts.

Sin, guilt, punishment - these are christian values, one could argue weak values from the viewpoint of honour and pride.

I can only say fact is fact. In your example a killer dies without having gone to jail. It happened. He's dead. We can discuss good and evil virtues but he will continue to be dead.

The questions that you raised have been debated since man developed reason and we are no closer to a definition of anything. That's how it will always be.
We like to call ourselves political animals, and sometimes pretend to be moral animals.

Maybe i cannot understand and give you a better answer because i dont believe in good, evil, sin or guilt.

rcunning03

Sin, guilt, punishment - these are christian values, one could argue weak values from the viewpoint of honour and pride.

Your right, those concepts have been used to oppress and control people for the last 1500 years or so, and once you let go of those concepts it leads to a much happier and freer lifestyle. I only discovered paganism last year, so I still have a bit of christian de-programming to do. I never considered myself christian and always hated the church but I guess now I'm only really beginning to see the extent of brainwashing that goes on. Most hollywood films and TV is about right and wrong and the advertising media use guilt to a very great extent.

My main problem at the moment is I haven't had a spliff in two months, so I going to buy myself a nice quarter and reaquaint myself with Pink Floyd-dark side of the moon and nice walks in the park while stoned.

Ancient1

My main problem at the moment is I haven't had a spliff in two months, so I going to buy myself a nice quarter and reaquaint myself with Pink Floyd-dark side of the moon and nice walks in the park while stoned.

Good man

Suaimhneach

That link that you posted was based on Wiccan. Not paganism.

The way I look at it is this: If a man murders and gets away with it. ie, doesnt go to jail. That does not mean he does not get punishment from the universe. That he escapes karma. Just because he doesn't go to jail does not mean he is a free man. Generally I find that the world works its ways. And that someone that commits an evil or bad act, has it come back to them, in one form or another. Regardless of whether its corprol punishment or not.

No one ever really goes unpunished.

Talliesin

Just personally, I've stopped thinking much about questions of punishment and reward - I do what I think is the right thing because I think it is the right thing.

If you could get away with murder - no punishment in either this life or the next - does that mean that you would kill everyone that annoyed you just to shut them up?

The Corinthian

Talliesin wrote:

If you could get away with murder - no punishment in either this life or the next - does that mean that you would kill everyone that annoyed you just to shut them up?

Don't tempt me...

Yoda

Listen, Mr Teeth-for-Eyes...

Yoda

Paganism has a kind of Karma? Well, Karma in Buddhism is the fruit of volitional action -- that means it's a response to what you do intentionally. I think intention is also relevant in the Neo-pagan tradition, which concerns itself with (among other things) mental energy. So... how does it (or indeed Buddhism) explain that Belgian guy who killed children? I am reminded of Laurie Anderson in her album Big Science, though it was published long ago and many of you haven't heard it. "You were born," she says, "and so you're free. So happy birthday." Your man in Belgium made his choices. Crowley himself knew that the Belgian could do it: "'Do what thou wilt' shall be the whole of the law". Are there consequences? Of course, according to neo-pagan (and indeed Buddhist and Hindu) belief. Those consequences would appear to apply whether or not the perp were caught and punished by secular authorities.

Nevyn

"The universe puts us in places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever you are is the right place, at the right time. Pain sometimes comes. It is part of the process of constantly being born...
We are starstuff, we are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective."

Coming from a Christian back ground we are thought that when bad things happen it is because of evil or a sin that we have already committed and are being punished. That if we were all good and didn’t sin the world would be perfect. This is a post Vatican two doctrine.
Before that it was held that we were to suffer on this earth because we were inheritably sinful due to original sin accused by eve and so would sin further causing further suffering and this suffering and our penance were so that we could earn our place back in gods grace before we died so that we would be fit for heaven.

Then for a lot is who were raised with Christian values and or beliefs we move on to the idea of 'balance'. Of threading the path between the pillars one light and one dark (as can be seen on the tarot card of the High priestess)

The two pillars repasent opposites, extremes, light and dark, aggressive and passive, love and hate, kindness and cruelty ECT and it is between them we strive to live our lives in balance. For to deny any of our needs or drives is to deny part of ourselves and to do that is to deny truly who you are. The opposite of to deny would then be to indulge and
To indulge any of needs or drives with out cautation would also be wrong for we would harm ourselves and those around us.

So how do we explain the ideas of balance when there is many acts of what is termed evil in our lives and in the world? Balance does not say that for every act of good there has to be an act of evil. What is evil? Personally the most pure of what is said to be evil is utter selfishness. From small acts of eating all the biscuits, never sharing your time /money/self to not considering how your choices impact on you’re the world around you and those in it; to acts by business corporations and governments. “ I/WE are doing this because we can, because we want to, because it pleases us “

So why do bad things happen? If we are in this life time and those that have past and those that will follow following the path between the two pillars there are many lessons that we must learn for too many for one life time. These lessons are often never easy.
Some life times it is that we suffer and endure and survive what seem to be the most painful things. Other times we do and inflict on others the most painful of things and there are the life times where we are on neither end but must survive it being done to those that we love and watch and be there for them.
This swings both ways we will to the wonderful loving caring blissful things two for we have great capacity for both.

Why?

Because you can not appreciate fully sweet until you have tasted sour, happiness until you have known misery, pleasure until you have known pain.

These lessons are mapped out for us by our Gods, Lords of Karma, and the Universe
Our fates which ever force that you feel guides you. But we to have free will.
We can choose not to learn the lessons we are meant to in this life; to run the other way to hide to walk an easier path to be less then who we can and should be.


Is a life sent in selfish debauchery was wasted one? not if the soul/person ect sees that it was not worth it and as they grow in wisdom the harm the may have done in not respecting them selves and others with thier words toughts and deeds. There are many insights that such a life would you I am sure Crowley would have easily and logically argued that these were worth living that type of life but we as pagans mostly choose to shoulder the responsibilities of our action in this life and those that have past before.

We have to make up for the acts of selfishness we have committed in past lives even if they were so that we would learn certain lessons or so that others could learn in the aftermath of our actions. That can be the hardest easy to hate the bad guy hard to admit that in certain circumstances we have been or are the bad guy.

I know that if all of us could we would spare the pain suffering and struggle of those around us. Put would that be the right thing to do or would it be an act of selfishness because we can not in ourselves cope with the feelings of powerlessness or agonizing
Empathy we feel? Who are we to come between them and their lessons that they must learn? Some times the only way a Childs learns not to touch something that is hot regardless of all the lecturing and minding in the world, is to let them get burned a little.
Some times experience is the only way things can be thought.

In Christian times we have labeled certain things as bad and along with that went
A lot of the old gods. Easy to redress the Goddess as Mary but lets get rid of all the bad sexuality and make her a virgin, redress the dying and reborn gods as Jesus, redress
Brid as St Bright for she was one of the Shining and Light Goddesses with hearth and fire,
Poetry and smith craft as her realms of influence. But Banished were Lilth who stood made equal with Adam and wanted to be treated so, let her and the rebellious angles that left Eden with her be the Mother and begetters of daemons and all sorts of evil. Crom Cruach the god of death, rot and decay and all the Goddesses of war in her many forms
We were taught to fear and them ignore.

We have been conditioned not to dwell on what is considered ‘Dark’ / ‘Evil’
IF we do not look into, accept and master our own darkness or that of how we live our lifes, or of our humanity we do not know and master ourselves.

What happened in Belgium was appalling. I know people that have deeply affected by what has happened there not only in this case but with the whole pedophilia rings that were operating there. While I would like to have spared the suffering of the children and their families and the families of those who did these things I have to step back acknowledge those feeling and be more rational.

With these deaths , all of them the police and governing bodies have now to look at where they have been going wrong, same here in regard to the abuse of children in state care. There are many lessons that have been learned and many more to come. I can only hope and pray that those who have to learn hard lessons can to so gracefully and that those who need the courage and insight to make the hard changes find it.

There is light and there is dark and we stand in the shadows; but we have to be able to look into both.


OK cant resist in a display of uber geekiness having started this with a quote from Bablyon 5 ; hey quit sniggering wise words are wise words no matter where they come from , Lets end with

Yoda wrote:

Mr Teeth-for-Eyes...

. A character from Neil Gaiman's the dreaming series
http://www.dyve.net/sandman/. The Corinthian character in that
being nightmare a serial killer but even when the Lord of the Dreaming comes to put to an end to his killing spree on earth the lord of dreams can not Destroy him. For nightmares are as much a part of the dreaming as pleasant day dreams are. Trying to take the nightmares out of the dreaming nearly tore it asunder. But the Corinthian did die and was reincarnated with the knowledge of what his earlier carnation had done and the struggle to understand that and what his role was lead to a greater understanding of the dreaming as a whole for a lot of people.

We struggle to understand ourselves and the world and universe we live in the same was the Corinthian reborn struggles. Hopefully at then end of this life we will have gotten a little bit closer, moved around another notch on the wheel of karma, and learned the lessons we must have in this life or set ourselves up for the lessons to come in others.

Do I think a dead serial killer goes unpunished? No

Do I think that if you could 'get away' with killing some one and not face legal?
Repercussions that you have gotten away with it? No

Every act we do has an effect on us. Even those that no other human knows about.

The Corinthian

Ancient1 wrote:

Paganism doesnt necessarily shy away from the issue of right and wrong, but those issues seem to me to be predominantly christian concepts.

Err... no. Christianity is hardly alone in holding the concepts of good and evil. Both Islam and Zoroastrianism, for example, have long personified it and concepts (generally codified) of right and wrong - good and evil, not to mention their related rewards and punishments exist in pretty much every established religion.

In essence good and evil are more easily defined as social rather than spiritual concepts - social behaviour is good, pious and to be rewarded, while anti-social behaviour is evil, resulting in (we are taught) inevitable divine retribution, be it infernal, karmic or otherwise. Cultural variations result in differences in what is considered good or evil, explaining why suicide, homosexuality or even cow tipping can be considered deeply evil acts in some faiths and not others. Beyond that, pretty much all established religions will generally promote the basic principles needed for co-existence in any community (general rights to life, property, etc.).

Of course, does sin inevitably result in divine retribution? That is a question of faith regardless of your creed as it is ultimately not provable given that it can be administered post mortem. However, is this inevitable within our lifetime? In a word, no. Evil men carry out evil acts and live long and happy lives all the time. Even conscience can often be salved with a good night’s sleep. As Tom Ripley once put it; “the thing about doing something really terrible is after a week is you don’t even remember it”.

Personally, I suggest watching Woody Allen’s Crimes and Misdemeanours, with regard to this topic.

Nevyn

if you dont hold any belief in an afterlife or another life after this one in any shape or form nor any beliefs in gods in any form but that you live this life here and now and that is all there is and it ends when you die then, it would leae you to believe that

Evil men carry out evil acts and live long and happy lives all the time. Even conscience can often be salved with a good night’s sleep. As Tom Ripley once put it; “the thing about doing something really terrible is after a week is you don’t even remember it”.

But who would want to live a four Dimensional life in a multidimensional universe.

The Corinthian

Thaed wrote:

if you dont hold any belief in an afterlife or another life after this one in any shape or form nor any beliefs in gods in any form but that you live this life here and now and that is all there is and it ends when you die then, it would leae you to believe that

But even if an afterlife exists, it remains a question of faith that divine justice is as we expect it to be. It is ultimately this faith in whatever creed you ascribe to that leads you to believe that it is anything other than random or, perversely, something unexpected.

Nevyn

The Corinthian wrote:

But even if an afterlife exists, it remains a question of faith that divine justice is as we expect it to be. It is ultimately this faith in whatever creed you ascribe to that leads you to believe that it is anything other than random or, perversely, something

True but as this is the paganism forum and the question was frist raised as

rcunning03 wrote:

I just want to know how paganism explains good and evil.

it is being answered with the frame work of faith and beliefs that are pagan in nature and mine with a wiccan slant.

The Corinthian

Thaed wrote:

it is being answered with the frame work of faith and beliefs that are pagan in nature and mine with a wiccan slant.

You probably should have also stuck to the topic yourself then when responding to my post, TBH.

Nevyn

maybe I did or maybe I didnt often there are no simple answers.

The Corinthian

Thaed wrote:

maybe I did or maybe I didnt often there are no simple answers.

Kind of my point.

Nevyn

but as you pointed out faith is everything you think that evil happens and there are few consequences if any were as I believe there are always consequences,
and sometimes more reason then the selfish one of 'I wanted to and I could"

The Corinthian

Thaed wrote:

but as you pointed out faith is everything you think that evil happens and there are few consequences if any were as I believe there are always consequences,
and sometimes more reason then the selfish one of 'I wanted to and I could"

But you made the assumption that the only means by which one may forego divine justice is by the absence of an afterlife (or absence of faith in an afterlife). One may still have an afterlife (or faith in an afterlife) and forego divine justice if justice that afterlife is either random or does not share our idea of justice.

This does not preclude you from holding faith in whatever you wish, but it is a correction to the logic you used when making your earlier assumption.

Nevyn

or we could be all butterflies dreaming we are people
or it the entire universe could be merely Ctulhu's belly button fluff
if you want to argue the logic of what may or may not be.
And using logical philosphy to argue around these points would be more suited to the philosphy forum. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=443


But having faith and beliefs that are built on your own personal experiences
and experiences with deity in many forms is what all religions are about.
And I do believe that in the context of the pagan beliefs this question has been dealt with.

Hope this has helped in some way rcunning03.
As wiccans the creed of 'an it harm none, do as ye will' forces us to question every action and it's knock on effects. Other forms of paganism encourge it too. Never stop questioning.