Luas advantages? (not a troll)

p

Hi all,

Quick quesiton for you.

Luas:
Sandyford -> Town : 22mins
Tallaght -> Town : 35 mins

Dublin Bus (off peak)
Sandyford -> Town : 25 mins
Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins


Now, on peak there's a clear pay off. However, the Luas itself isn't any faster than a bus.

So I'm wondering what the advantage of the luas over a building a few dedicated bus roads is?

- Kevin, presumably missing something

BuffyBot

Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I've yet to experience a bus that will being me from to Tallaght in 30 minutes, on or off peak..

p

Well as someone who's lived & breathed on buses for the last 6 years of my life I have to say, almost all times of the day that's what it takes me, maybe 35 if it's slow.

That's to/from Tallaght village by the way. I can't imagine the Square is much longer (which is where the Luas goes)

That's based on the following buses: 65/65b/77/54a

Dub13

Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins it can be done.....the Nightlink only takes about 30 min.

aphex™

Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

John R

Originally posted by aphex™
Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

Err, yeah THAT's the point, was well worth 3/4 Billion€ to make THAT point.

Dub13

Originally posted by aphex™
Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

And how do you no that the Luas drivers will not go on strike....?after all they are not on the best of money.

Victor

Luas introduces consistency to the timetable, offers new routes and will attact people from cars who wouldn't use busses.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Dub13
And how do you no that the Luas drivers will not go on strike....?after all they are not on the best of money.

There's some anti-union clause in LUAS workers' contracts. They'll get fired if they join a union or something.

Like victor said, I expect that the reliability and consistency LUAS offers encourages people to use public transport because it's much easier to predict how long it'll take to get anywhere.

Dub13

Originally posted by DadaKopf
There's some anti-union clause in LUAS workers' contracts. They'll get fired if they join a union or something.

Like victor said, I expect that the reliability and consistency LUAS offers encourages people to use public transport because it's much easier to predict how long it'll take to get anywhere.

Did you just make that up......?first an anti-union clause would be illegal.They are all members of SIPTU.So I dont no were you got your info from but its way of

Stark

Maybe they have to join a licenced union or something as opposed to these "national rail workers" unions etc.

Dub13

I am sure the NBRU are a licenced union or else CIE would not negotiate with them,in fact I am sure they are...so you remember a few years ago a few workers I think they were train drivers split from the NBRU and formed there own union.If my memory is right CIE would not talk to them because they were not a licenced union.

p

You're really getting into a side discussion here, please lkeep on topic.

While the union one may be a consideraiton, it certainly wouldn't be worth the spend.

Also, to Victor, those things could be achieved with buses too if they had a dedicated road. Since the luas is building dedicated tracks, you could've just skipped the tram bit and offered the same service for a tenth of the price.

Victor

There are still people who would find trams preferrable to busses.

Connex would be penalised if the trams don't run, even if there is a strike (most contracts accept a strike as a reason for non-performance).

Trams are also safer than busses which are an order of scale safer than cars.

Hecate

The bus journey from my place to town is around the same as the luas (off peak of course).

But I live along a really infrequent and badly serviced bus route, its..okay..at peak times but outside those times it comes every hour or somthing stupid like that, and if you miss that one your stuck. But the luas arrives every 10 minutes (5 minutes soon) so I can leave the house when it suits me, I'll know there will be a tram at the stop.

People may see different advantages/disadvantages vs buses but for me it comes down to frequency and reliability, at the moment the bus is losing out pretty badly.

p

People prefer trams to buses because they're reliable & run on time. With a dedicated road buses would be able to replicate that service.

Buses are only unreliable because of traffic.


That's a good point about the whole connex business, however for the cost involved I'm sure some kind of bus service quality agreement could have been implemented.

p

Originally posted by Hecate
People may see different advantages/disadvantages vs buses but for me it comes down to frequency and reliability, at the moment the bus is losing out pretty badly.

I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

jesus_thats_gre

I have worked in Leopardstown for about 8 months and lived there for two months. It is a rare occassion that the 46A or whatever bus route makes it into Stephens Green in 25 or so minutes. I used to get a private bus service from Leeson street to Leopardstown on a daily basis. This would take 25 minutes to get ti Leeson street and the only reason for this is that the bus drivers were not afraid to put the pedal down and it only every stopped about or 6 times... If I had to be in town for 9pm I would allow about 40 minutes on the bus for the unknown.. With the Luas I allow 25 mins.

seamus

Originally posted by p
I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

I disagree. While there's certainly plenty of room for improvement, there's no way a properly-run bus service can ever reach the reliability of a properly-run tram/train service. For example, just one broken down bus in a bus lane, during peak times, and all busses behind are clogged, forced to join the stream of traffic.

Basically, since busses will always be forced to mix with standard traffic, making it a reliable and efficient service, on the scale of a tram is impossible. There are just too many variables.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by p
I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

Isn't the LUAS equilvant to three QBC's and for how many years could the cost of LUAS support Dublin BUS subsidies ?

Of course if you had build a separate train line then there is no interaction with other traffic (except at level crossings).

Be interesting to see how the volumes hold up - remember in the UK they saved money by building the Docklands Light Rail instead of a Tube extension. Except they had to extend the Tube line anyway..

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Be interesting to see how the volumes hold up - remember in the UK they saved money by building the Docklands Light Rail instead of a Tube extension. Except they had to extend the Tube line anyway..

Not quite, the only area where there was any duplication was in the City for a 2-mile strech (Bank -v- Tower Gateway) which probably had more to do with construction timescale than anything else. the Jubillee Line provides a separate and complimentary service.

Map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/images/jp_big.jpg 277kb

p

Originally posted by seamus
I disagree. While there's certainly plenty of room for improvement, there's no way a properly-run bus service can ever reach the reliability of a properly-run tram/train service. For example, just one broken down bus in a bus lane, during peak times, and all busses behind are clogged, forced to join the stream of traffic.

Errrr, a bus can drive around another bus. A tram can't do that. And trains breakdown too.

Basically, since busses will always be forced to mix with standard traffic, making it a reliable and efficient service, on the scale of a tram is impossible. There are just too many variables.

I think you missed the point of my initial post. I said a bus service on a dedicated track. That wouldn't cause those delays.

Isn't the LUAS equilvant to three QBC's and for how many years could the cost of LUAS support Dublin BUS subsidies ?

3 QBCs? I would've thought alot more. Is the Luas cheaper to run than a bus service?

seamus

Originally posted by p

Originally posted by seamus
Errrr, a bus can drive around another bus. A tram can't do that. And trains breakdown too.

Indeed. But the system is designed to cope with breakdowns. Trams can indeed switch tracks to overtake the broken down tram. Look at a busy road with a QBC any morning (the N4 inbound is a perfect example). One broken down bus, and suddenly, you have a bottleneck where taxis and other busses have to enter the heavy traffic stream. Once they're past the bus, they're motoring again, but the time it takes to get into the traffic and out again has a cumulative effect on both the bus lane and normal traffic. I've seen this occur at the top of a slip road, and there's only one effect: chaos.

I think you missed the point of my initial post. I said a bus service on a dedicated track. That wouldn't cause those delays.

The cost of providing a dedicated, separated bus system would probably be similar to that of a tram system. Isn't the Luas a system of two-lane roads, unavailable to other traffic? Isn't that what would be required to get what you're talking about? Wouldn't that require similar bridge-building, and road reclaim as the Luas?

P&L

...and dont forget the environmental impact of LUAS - huge,
as well as its wheelchair accesibilty.

(yeah, I know we have a few kneeling buses now and more and more all the time, but the bus system is nowhere near as good as the tram's - Ive seen wheelchair people reversing on and off the tram in full confidence, and that ability is consistent at _every_ stop)

there have also been massive improvement to the city's utilities infrastructure, though that is only a side-effect - it means a lot less roads for cars and buses will be excavated as the LUAS network expands.

LUAS has better passenger security, in the form of an extensive CCTV network both at stops and on-board the Trams.

While these points may seem minor (by comparison to some of the replies posted already), they do have large positive 'stealth' impact on people's day to day lives.

Reliability (yet to be proven I suppose) is really it's best strength IMHO.

However, I dont think we will see all the real benfits of the LUAS unless its network expands quickly and extensively.

edit: oh and I forgot - LUAS should help improve and rejuvenate certain parts of the city, that may have been heading in a downward spiral otherwise.

mackerski

Not quite, the only area where there was any duplication was in the City for a 2-mile strech (Bank -v- Tower Gateway)

The DLR was designed to provide access into the newly developed dockland areas from the rest of London, especially the city. At its inception, it was intended as a cheap solution to an expensive problem and was a deliberate way of avoiding a Jubilee line extension, whose cost was seen as prohibitive.

The first big limitation of the service was the terminus at Tower Gateway, which is poorly placed for Tube interchange. The tunnel to Bank helped that a little. That the Jubilee line was subsequently extended anyway tells us at the very least that the DLR needed relief - it's true that the Jubilee doesn't duplicate the DLR routes as such, but it does take the pressure off it for long-distance commuters to Canary Wharf, who now don't need to use the DLR at all. I'm not sure if the London authorities now regard the DLR as an expensive mistake (or if they would admit it if they did), but at least building it before the Jubilee extension gave a transport link to plenty of areas that would not have been served by a tube only link.

Dermot

rs

Originally posted by p

Luas:
Sandyford -> Town : 22mins
Tallaght -> Town : 35 mins

Dublin Bus (off peak)
Sandyford -> Town : 25 mins
Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins


Now, on peak there's a clear pay off. However, the Luas itself isn't any faster than a bus.

- Kevin, presumably missing something

I think you answered your own question.

The vast majority of commuters travel on peak. That's the problem. The luas takes pretty much the same amount of time on or off peak. Buses take much longer on peak because they are forced to compete with traffic. QBC help here but they don't solve the problem. How many intersections does the luas cross on each trip, compared to a bus?

The vast majority of people who we want using public transportation are 9 - 5 ers. People who travel on peak. Trains and trams can be run at very high frequency, without running into each other. Cars and buses tend to bunch together because of all the interections and traffic lights they have to cross.

A2000

journey time from tallaght will be 43 mins. connex staff must be a member of siptu as it is a condition of employment, work on a closed shop contact which is almost unheard of in this day and age and signed a no strike clause.

Flukey

You've also got to take into consideration the amount of buses comared to the amount of trams. Luas will run far more frequently than the buses does. I am a bus user, as I don't drive. Locationwise the Luas doesn't suit me. I am near, but not near enough. Bus lanes are good and they have made a major difference to the Stillorgan Road, but there are many places where bus lanes are just not an option. There is a lot more Dublin Bus could do to improve their service. We need a lot more Luas lines. It is fine for those near it, like the DART is great for those along its route. More lines are needed. The Luas should be extended, not just out to Cherrywood but right out to the Bray line. They should also run a line similar to the M50, possibly even along its central divider, if there was enough room. You could then have a link to all the main industrial estates around the periphery of the city, which would stop a lot of people having to go into the city in order to get a bus out to where they actually want to go. Dublin Bus should do a lot more routes that don't go into the city, than the ones they have at present. A little bit of thinking and a far better system of public transport could be devised for the whole Dublin area. The bringing in of new and imaginative routes by Dublin Bus, that serve commuters needs can be done fairly quickly, without having to wait for years for tracks to be laid, one of the main problems in getting trams going. Dublin Bus claim to be changing with the city, so lets see if they can now make the changes that should have been done years ago. They have improved a lot over the last 10 or 15 years but there is plenty of scope to improve a lot more.

Hecate

They should also run a line similar to the M50, possibly even along its central divider, if there was enough room. You could then have a link to all the main industrial estates around the periphery of the city, which would stop a lot of people having to go into the city in order to get a bus out to where they actually want to go.

Indeed. Industrial estates tend to be developed in the middle of nowhere, as far as transport links are concerned. This is understandable if theres a lot of heavy industry that can't be near big population centres but is pretty silly if all you've got is offices and mabye some light manufacturing.

This is certainly the case in places such as the Ballycoolin industrial estate (near blanchardstown) where symantec and creative labs have big operations. It's very difficult to get there from anywhere on the southside unless you drive a car, there is arrow station near blanchardstown village but it's still a good 30 minutes walk from the industrial estate. The transport links should be built first not added as an afterthought.

A2000

I caNT SEE THE POINT IN RUNNING A TRAM SYSTEM PARALLEL TO THE DART AS BRAY IS ALREADY ADEQUATLY SERVICED. cONNEX WILL EVENTUALLY RUN FEEDER BUSES TO LUAS STOPS. tHIS MAY HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE PRIOR TO THE SYSTEM OPENING BUT FOR SEAMUS BRENNANS INSISTANCE THAT IT OPEN IN JUNE

BrianD

There should be no feeder buses running to the LUAS. It is not a high capacity train service like the DART so feeder buses will overload it. LUAS was only designed to serve the areas it passes through and not large catchement areas.