Luas advantages? (not a troll)

p

Hi all,

Quick quesiton for you.

Luas:
Sandyford -> Town : 22mins
Tallaght -> Town : 35 mins

Dublin Bus (off peak)
Sandyford -> Town : 25 mins
Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins


Now, on peak there's a clear pay off. However, the Luas itself isn't any faster than a bus.

So I'm wondering what the advantage of the luas over a building a few dedicated bus roads is?

- Kevin, presumably missing something

BuffyBot

Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I've yet to experience a bus that will being me from to Tallaght in 30 minutes, on or off peak..

p

Well as someone who's lived & breathed on buses for the last 6 years of my life I have to say, almost all times of the day that's what it takes me, maybe 35 if it's slow.

That's to/from Tallaght village by the way. I can't imagine the Square is much longer (which is where the Luas goes)

That's based on the following buses: 65/65b/77/54a

Dub13

Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins it can be done.....the Nightlink only takes about 30 min.

aphex™

Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

John R

Originally posted by aphex™
Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

Err, yeah THAT's the point, was well worth 3/4 Billion€ to make THAT point.

Dub13

Originally posted by aphex™
Eh you're missing the point. The point of LUAS is that it's one mode of transport CIE and their flipping go-on-strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat workers don't have their flipping mits stuck into.

And how do you no that the Luas drivers will not go on strike....?after all they are not on the best of money.

Victor

Luas introduces consistency to the timetable, offers new routes and will attact people from cars who wouldn't use busses.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Dub13
And how do you no that the Luas drivers will not go on strike....?after all they are not on the best of money.

There's some anti-union clause in LUAS workers' contracts. They'll get fired if they join a union or something.

Like victor said, I expect that the reliability and consistency LUAS offers encourages people to use public transport because it's much easier to predict how long it'll take to get anywhere.

Dub13

Originally posted by DadaKopf
There's some anti-union clause in LUAS workers' contracts. They'll get fired if they join a union or something.

Like victor said, I expect that the reliability and consistency LUAS offers encourages people to use public transport because it's much easier to predict how long it'll take to get anywhere.

Did you just make that up......?first an anti-union clause would be illegal.They are all members of SIPTU.So I dont no were you got your info from but its way of

Stark

Maybe they have to join a licenced union or something as opposed to these "national rail workers" unions etc.

Dub13

I am sure the NBRU are a licenced union or else CIE would not negotiate with them,in fact I am sure they are...so you remember a few years ago a few workers I think they were train drivers split from the NBRU and formed there own union.If my memory is right CIE would not talk to them because they were not a licenced union.

p

You're really getting into a side discussion here, please lkeep on topic.

While the union one may be a consideraiton, it certainly wouldn't be worth the spend.

Also, to Victor, those things could be achieved with buses too if they had a dedicated road. Since the luas is building dedicated tracks, you could've just skipped the tram bit and offered the same service for a tenth of the price.

Victor

There are still people who would find trams preferrable to busses.

Connex would be penalised if the trams don't run, even if there is a strike (most contracts accept a strike as a reason for non-performance).

Trams are also safer than busses which are an order of scale safer than cars.

Hecate

The bus journey from my place to town is around the same as the luas (off peak of course).

But I live along a really infrequent and badly serviced bus route, its..okay..at peak times but outside those times it comes every hour or somthing stupid like that, and if you miss that one your stuck. But the luas arrives every 10 minutes (5 minutes soon) so I can leave the house when it suits me, I'll know there will be a tram at the stop.

People may see different advantages/disadvantages vs buses but for me it comes down to frequency and reliability, at the moment the bus is losing out pretty badly.

p

People prefer trams to buses because they're reliable & run on time. With a dedicated road buses would be able to replicate that service.

Buses are only unreliable because of traffic.


That's a good point about the whole connex business, however for the cost involved I'm sure some kind of bus service quality agreement could have been implemented.

p

Originally posted by Hecate
People may see different advantages/disadvantages vs buses but for me it comes down to frequency and reliability, at the moment the bus is losing out pretty badly.

I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

jesus_thats_gre

I have worked in Leopardstown for about 8 months and lived there for two months. It is a rare occassion that the 46A or whatever bus route makes it into Stephens Green in 25 or so minutes. I used to get a private bus service from Leeson street to Leopardstown on a daily basis. This would take 25 minutes to get ti Leeson street and the only reason for this is that the bus drivers were not afraid to put the pedal down and it only every stopped about or 6 times... If I had to be in town for 9pm I would allow about 40 minutes on the bus for the unknown.. With the Luas I allow 25 mins.

seamus

Originally posted by p
I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

I disagree. While there's certainly plenty of room for improvement, there's no way a properly-run bus service can ever reach the reliability of a properly-run tram/train service. For example, just one broken down bus in a bus lane, during peak times, and all busses behind are clogged, forced to join the stream of traffic.

Basically, since busses will always be forced to mix with standard traffic, making it a reliable and efficient service, on the scale of a tram is impossible. There are just too many variables.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by p
I agree absolutely. My point is though. For a fraction of the cost of the luas your bus service could've been invested in and had the effoiciency & regularity fo the luas. (perhaps moreso)

Isn't the LUAS equilvant to three QBC's and for how many years could the cost of LUAS support Dublin BUS subsidies ?

Of course if you had build a separate train line then there is no interaction with other traffic (except at level crossings).

Be interesting to see how the volumes hold up - remember in the UK they saved money by building the Docklands Light Rail instead of a Tube extension. Except they had to extend the Tube line anyway..

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Be interesting to see how the volumes hold up - remember in the UK they saved money by building the Docklands Light Rail instead of a Tube extension. Except they had to extend the Tube line anyway..

Not quite, the only area where there was any duplication was in the City for a 2-mile strech (Bank -v- Tower Gateway) which probably had more to do with construction timescale than anything else. the Jubillee Line provides a separate and complimentary service.

Map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/images/jp_big.jpg 277kb

p

Originally posted by seamus
I disagree. While there's certainly plenty of room for improvement, there's no way a properly-run bus service can ever reach the reliability of a properly-run tram/train service. For example, just one broken down bus in a bus lane, during peak times, and all busses behind are clogged, forced to join the stream of traffic.

Errrr, a bus can drive around another bus. A tram can't do that. And trains breakdown too.

Basically, since busses will always be forced to mix with standard traffic, making it a reliable and efficient service, on the scale of a tram is impossible. There are just too many variables.

I think you missed the point of my initial post. I said a bus service on a dedicated track. That wouldn't cause those delays.

Isn't the LUAS equilvant to three QBC's and for how many years could the cost of LUAS support Dublin BUS subsidies ?

3 QBCs? I would've thought alot more. Is the Luas cheaper to run than a bus service?

seamus

Originally posted by p

Originally posted by seamus
Errrr, a bus can drive around another bus. A tram can't do that. And trains breakdown too.

Indeed. But the system is designed to cope with breakdowns. Trams can indeed switch tracks to overtake the broken down tram. Look at a busy road with a QBC any morning (the N4 inbound is a perfect example). One broken down bus, and suddenly, you have a bottleneck where taxis and other busses have to enter the heavy traffic stream. Once they're past the bus, they're motoring again, but the time it takes to get into the traffic and out again has a cumulative effect on both the bus lane and normal traffic. I've seen this occur at the top of a slip road, and there's only one effect: chaos.

I think you missed the point of my initial post. I said a bus service on a dedicated track. That wouldn't cause those delays.

The cost of providing a dedicated, separated bus system would probably be similar to that of a tram system. Isn't the Luas a system of two-lane roads, unavailable to other traffic? Isn't that what would be required to get what you're talking about? Wouldn't that require similar bridge-building, and road reclaim as the Luas?

P&L

...and dont forget the environmental impact of LUAS - huge,
as well as its wheelchair accesibilty.

(yeah, I know we have a few kneeling buses now and more and more all the time, but the bus system is nowhere near as good as the tram's - Ive seen wheelchair people reversing on and off the tram in full confidence, and that ability is consistent at _every_ stop)

there have also been massive improvement to the city's utilities infrastructure, though that is only a side-effect - it means a lot less roads for cars and buses will be excavated as the LUAS network expands.

LUAS has better passenger security, in the form of an extensive CCTV network both at stops and on-board the Trams.

While these points may seem minor (by comparison to some of the replies posted already), they do have large positive 'stealth' impact on people's day to day lives.

Reliability (yet to be proven I suppose) is really it's best strength IMHO.

However, I dont think we will see all the real benfits of the LUAS unless its network expands quickly and extensively.

edit: oh and I forgot - LUAS should help improve and rejuvenate certain parts of the city, that may have been heading in a downward spiral otherwise.

mackerski

Not quite, the only area where there was any duplication was in the City for a 2-mile strech (Bank -v- Tower Gateway)

The DLR was designed to provide access into the newly developed dockland areas from the rest of London, especially the city. At its inception, it was intended as a cheap solution to an expensive problem and was a deliberate way of avoiding a Jubilee line extension, whose cost was seen as prohibitive.

The first big limitation of the service was the terminus at Tower Gateway, which is poorly placed for Tube interchange. The tunnel to Bank helped that a little. That the Jubilee line was subsequently extended anyway tells us at the very least that the DLR needed relief - it's true that the Jubilee doesn't duplicate the DLR routes as such, but it does take the pressure off it for long-distance commuters to Canary Wharf, who now don't need to use the DLR at all. I'm not sure if the London authorities now regard the DLR as an expensive mistake (or if they would admit it if they did), but at least building it before the Jubilee extension gave a transport link to plenty of areas that would not have been served by a tube only link.

Dermot

rs

Originally posted by p

Luas:
Sandyford -> Town : 22mins
Tallaght -> Town : 35 mins

Dublin Bus (off peak)
Sandyford -> Town : 25 mins
Tallaght -> Town : 30 mins


Now, on peak there's a clear pay off. However, the Luas itself isn't any faster than a bus.

- Kevin, presumably missing something

I think you answered your own question.

The vast majority of commuters travel on peak. That's the problem. The luas takes pretty much the same amount of time on or off peak. Buses take much longer on peak because they are forced to compete with traffic. QBC help here but they don't solve the problem. How many intersections does the luas cross on each trip, compared to a bus?

The vast majority of people who we want using public transportation are 9 - 5 ers. People who travel on peak. Trains and trams can be run at very high frequency, without running into each other. Cars and buses tend to bunch together because of all the interections and traffic lights they have to cross.

A2000

journey time from tallaght will be 43 mins. connex staff must be a member of siptu as it is a condition of employment, work on a closed shop contact which is almost unheard of in this day and age and signed a no strike clause.

Flukey

You've also got to take into consideration the amount of buses comared to the amount of trams. Luas will run far more frequently than the buses does. I am a bus user, as I don't drive. Locationwise the Luas doesn't suit me. I am near, but not near enough. Bus lanes are good and they have made a major difference to the Stillorgan Road, but there are many places where bus lanes are just not an option. There is a lot more Dublin Bus could do to improve their service. We need a lot more Luas lines. It is fine for those near it, like the DART is great for those along its route. More lines are needed. The Luas should be extended, not just out to Cherrywood but right out to the Bray line. They should also run a line similar to the M50, possibly even along its central divider, if there was enough room. You could then have a link to all the main industrial estates around the periphery of the city, which would stop a lot of people having to go into the city in order to get a bus out to where they actually want to go. Dublin Bus should do a lot more routes that don't go into the city, than the ones they have at present. A little bit of thinking and a far better system of public transport could be devised for the whole Dublin area. The bringing in of new and imaginative routes by Dublin Bus, that serve commuters needs can be done fairly quickly, without having to wait for years for tracks to be laid, one of the main problems in getting trams going. Dublin Bus claim to be changing with the city, so lets see if they can now make the changes that should have been done years ago. They have improved a lot over the last 10 or 15 years but there is plenty of scope to improve a lot more.

Hecate

They should also run a line similar to the M50, possibly even along its central divider, if there was enough room. You could then have a link to all the main industrial estates around the periphery of the city, which would stop a lot of people having to go into the city in order to get a bus out to where they actually want to go.

Indeed. Industrial estates tend to be developed in the middle of nowhere, as far as transport links are concerned. This is understandable if theres a lot of heavy industry that can't be near big population centres but is pretty silly if all you've got is offices and mabye some light manufacturing.

This is certainly the case in places such as the Ballycoolin industrial estate (near blanchardstown) where symantec and creative labs have big operations. It's very difficult to get there from anywhere on the southside unless you drive a car, there is arrow station near blanchardstown village but it's still a good 30 minutes walk from the industrial estate. The transport links should be built first not added as an afterthought.

A2000

I caNT SEE THE POINT IN RUNNING A TRAM SYSTEM PARALLEL TO THE DART AS BRAY IS ALREADY ADEQUATLY SERVICED. cONNEX WILL EVENTUALLY RUN FEEDER BUSES TO LUAS STOPS. tHIS MAY HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE PRIOR TO THE SYSTEM OPENING BUT FOR SEAMUS BRENNANS INSISTANCE THAT IT OPEN IN JUNE

BrianD

There should be no feeder buses running to the LUAS. It is not a high capacity train service like the DART so feeder buses will overload it. LUAS was only designed to serve the areas it passes through and not large catchement areas.

P&L

Thats an interesting point BrianD, I can see the sense in it, cos stops are laid out in what is considered to be reasonable walking distance apart, but the caveat is that alot of the design involed / involves bus and car interchanges or 'kiss and rides'. Which would indicate the opposite (i.e. feeder buses are expected)

sliabh

BrianD wrote:

There should be no feeder buses running to the LUAS. It is not a high capacity train service like the DART so feeder buses will overload it. LUAS was only designed to serve the areas it passes through and not large catchement areas.

The design of the Luas assumes that there will be feeds in from other areas, hence the park and ride facilities in Sandyford. Not many people live in the industrial estate.

I don't ride it into town in the mornings (I go the other way) but there does seem to be spare capacity in the trams. I can't see why bus feeds from Enniskerry or the like (as are announced on the tram) would be a major problem.

John R

sliabh wrote:

The design of the Luas assumes that there will be feeds in from other areas, hence the park and ride facilities in Sandyford. Not many people live in the industrial estate.

I don't ride it into town in the mornings (I go the other way) but there does seem to be spare capacity in the trams. I can't see why bus feeds from Enniskerry or the like (as are announced on the tram) would be a major problem.

The Eniskerry bus already stops very close to two Luas stops. Apparently there already is a significant amount of people using the buses to/from Dundrum as feeders into the Luas, there has been a reduction of bus users from Dundrum to the city in peak hours but not a huge reduction. The levels of use on both will be clearer in September when the schools are back and workers return from holidays.
Dublin Bus stated before the Luas started operating that they would wait several months and see how people altered their travel before changing any routes.

A2000

It was ALWAYS in the plan for feeder services to operate to luas. The red line terminus is at the square which is probably the lowest density of population there so it only makes sense to run feeds to the estates or else the tram would benefit the hospital and the square only. there also will be feeds from leopardstown stillorgan and sandyford to start with.

MrVestek

Question lads, anyone know when the tallaght line will be up and running?

elivsvonchiaing

Achilles wrote:

Question lads, anyone know when the tallaght line will be up and running?

Heard September - at one point -can't quote the source - don't remember.

One advantage the Luas has over buses - at the terminus - the driver can't just park the vehicle to get out side light up and wait for the next vehicle - to shoot the breeze with the driver only to discover that the driver following has the CD he borrowed (off the first driver) (has the 50 quid etc.) - result you don't get a 10 every 8 minutes- you get 3 together every 24 minutes!

John R

A2000 wrote:

It was ALWAYS in the plan for feeder services to operate to luas. The red line terminus is at the square which is probably the lowest density of population there so it only makes sense to run feeds to the estates or else the tram would benefit the hospital and the square only. there also will be feeds from leopardstown stillorgan and sandyford to start with.

Practically every bus that serves the Tallaght area already goes to or through the square.

BrianD

I'm not saying that bus services should not interconnect with the LUAS or there should not be park and ride (which have limited capacity), however adding feeder buses to increase the catchement area will defeat the purpose of this mode of transport.

As already stated, it makes sense to put the park n rides in areas that are not residential e.g Sandyford and Red Cow. These park n rides effectively "mimic" the passenger numbers that would could from a residential area.

A2000

I know all buses serve estates and the square but your ticket from the tram will cover you for the feeder buses. At the moment you will have to pay twice to to different companies and make two complaints if the bus/tram is late. You will also have to buy a bus/luas ticket which will be more expensive than a luas only ticket. A little competition in the bus market for Tallaght would not go amiss anyway.

elivsvonchiaing

A2000 wrote:

I know all buses serve estates and the square but your ticket from the tram will cover you for the feeder buses. At the moment you will have to pay twice to to different companies and make two complaints if the bus/tram is late. You will also have to buy a bus/luas ticket which will be more expensive than a luas only ticket. A little competition in the bus market for Tallaght would not go amiss anyway.

Heard a rumour that Seamus Brennan will be forcing co-operation here - its when contactless smartcard tickets come in apparently. Probably by 2010

antoinolachtnai

There are some good points here about the possibilities of having a dedicated busway. After all, if the 44 had its own road as far as Adelaide Road and two bus lanes as far of the Green, it would have been a much faster, more frequent and much more pleasant service.

To think about this, bear in mind that there is no 'right' transport solution for all areas of Dublin. Different areas have different needs. Sane, balanced, reasonable people (like us) will obviously want to find the best solutions to meet the particular requirements, given cost, space and other restraints. Sometimes this will be buses, sometimes it will be rail, occasionally it may be something else. It is cetainly a consideration that a modern tram service offers a smoother ride and is more attractive to car users than a bus service, but that shouldn't be the only consideration.

It appears to me that the argument for having a tram rather than a busway runs along the following lines.

The Harcourt Line is well suited to a tramway. It was originally designed for a tram. It is separated from the road. It is a little narrow for an unguided busway. The population is reasonably dense along the busway because of new office and residential developments. It is a lot easier to get residents (who live very close to the line) to agree to a tram than a bus, because of perceived environmental issues (smoke, noise).

Tallaght also needs improved public transport, seeing how it has a population the same as Limerick.

As it happens, its situation is quite different from Dundrum. The population is quite spread out. Unlike Dundrum, there is no existing rail route to Tallaght. There is not as much space available to build a fully segregated line.

So the balance between providing a tramway and a busway is much more evenly balanced in the case of Tallaght.

Tallaght is perceived (inaccurately in my view) as being a 'poor' area compared to Dundrum/Sandyford. It would be politically unpalatable to provide a 'luxury' solution (the Luas) to a well-off area whilst providing a 'budget' solution to a less well-off area.

The alternative that I would have suggested would have been dedicating the same amount of space and giving the same amount of priority all along the route to buses, and using bi- or tri-articulated (bendy) vehicles. The vehicles could have serviced all areas of Tallaght when they left the busway. Equally, buses from all over west Dublin could have used the dedicated road space between Euston Station and Connolly Station, reducing commute times for tens of thousands more people for around the same investment.

It's not that I begrudge people in Tallaght the Luas. I think it's great that there's an investment in public transport there and it is quite likely that a bus solution would have been eventually upgraded to rail anyway. But we do have to be careful to evaluate the possibilities in a rational way.

On the idea for an M50 Luas: why not have a small bus station (properly sheltered, with real-time information and security cameras, but unmanned, like Luas stations) at every interchange? A new bus service would travel around the motorway. Each bus would stop at every interchange, but every third or forth bus would also enter the surrounding housing and office areas. existing buses crossing the M50 would also service the stations. This would mean that you would be able to get from anywhere along the M50 to anywhere else using at most two buses and without getting wet.

Of course, to do this would require coordination between bus companies, the councils and the roads authority. I imagine it might be difficult to do this under the current structures. There would be significant investment involved (low tens of millions I suppose) to set it up, but it sounds like it would be a great service.

Bee

Advantages of the Luas?

Less anti social behaviour on the Luas than the Bus, e.g. drunk lager louts pissing and puking late in the evening, psychologicaly less intimidating than travelling upstairs on a bus full of the former, less smoking passengers than on a bus...

Cost wise? excellent for the builders with the extrordinary payments made despite being 3 times the initial cost and months late and never having any penalties imposed by compliant FF/PD friends.

Bee

Dub13

Bee wrote:

Advantages of the Luas?

Less anti social behaviour on the Luas than the Bus, e.g. drunk lager louts pissing and puking late in the evening, psychologicaly less intimidating than travelling upstairs on a bus full of the former, less smoking passengers than on a bus...

How is a Luas Driver going to stop this kind of behaviour more than a Bus driver...?just because the Luas has CCTV its not going to stop the drunks.

BrianD

He doesn't leave the cab! However, there are mobile inspectors moving up and down the line who can monitor passenger behaviour and call for a response.

Dub13

BrianD wrote:

He doesn't leave the cab! However, there are mobile inspectors moving up and down the line who can monitor passenger behaviour and call for a response.

That would not stop them,there are inspectors on buses and it still goes on these people are scum and they dont care about the police never mind mobile inspectors.

Also on a side note,its my understanding will not go after a bus,taxi etc etc they have to pull in so I am sure it will be the same for the Luas.

GlennaMaddy

One if the main benefits of the Luas is that it runs to a fixed schedule from A to B to C.
The problem with buses is that they leave at a fixed schedule from A, after that a number of factors can cause the bus to pass B and arrive at C early or late, which means you might have to allow a 15 min window at busstop B

Even if you gave the 44 the same road privlidges as the Tallaght Luas and made if stick to a schedule along the route I don't think it would persuade any more people out of their cars. Getting on a bus is a lousy experience, remember those mornings in the winter when you fell asleep with your face up against a window full of condensation?

antoinolachtnai

GlennaMaddy wrote:

One if the main benefits of the Luas is that it runs to a fixed schedule from A to B to C.
The problem with buses is that they leave at a fixed schedule from A, after that a number of factors can cause the bus to pass B and arrive at C early or late, which means you might have to allow a 15 min window at busstop B

You are completely right. As well as being less predictable, the average journey time is a good bit longer, especially at peak.

Even if you gave the 44 the same road privlidges as the Tallaght Luas and made if stick to a schedule along the route I don't think it would persuade any more people out of their cars. Getting on a bus is a lousy experience, remember those mornings in the winter when you fell asleep with your face up against a window full of condensation?

Well, if you

1. Reduced the number of stops to allow faster running

2. Gave the bus complete priority so that the 44 only took 25 minutes to get from Sandyford to town

3. Improved stop facilities to Luas levels

4. Made it easier to get on and off the bus by running a well-policed honour system

5. Ran at a 10-minute frequency. (The 44 only ran every 20 or 30 minutes as I recall.)

I think customers would live with the conditions on board. Most importantly, if the journey time was only half as long, it would be much easier to put up with crowded conditions.

Look at the Stillorgan QBC. It's had a big uptake, and it doesn't have anything like the level of priority that the LUAS lines have.

Anyway, there is no good reason why a bus shouldn't be properly ventilated. I was on that 44 bus many times, and it was ridiculous.

If you were operating a bus instead, you could cover a much wider area, because other buses could join the line at intermediate points along the route.

This is just a general discussion of course. How it would actually work would depend on the exact conditions along the route.

Antoin.