ATM robberies

Victor

Is it me or is the response to this pattern very slow? ATM / cash-in-transit robberies seems to be happening at the rate of at least once a fortnight (admittedly down from the 1970s one a week bank robberies).

Aside from the obvious loss of money, things like this affect the cost of banking and introduce a certain level of uncertainty in banking and the economy (and the Garda). Now I imagine the Garda is working one step ahead of these stories, but if it was me in charge, I wouldn't be allowing the suspects to scratch without me knowing.

That they are openly admitting to carrying around €1m+ unescorted is another matter.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/3589402?view=Eircomnet

Gardai step up ATM gang probe after €1m taken in latest raid
From:The Irish Independent
Wednesday, 14th July, 2004

ARMED raiders who held up a security van in Bettystown, Co Meath, are now known to have made off with close to €1m.

This is by far the biggest robbery in a spate of raids on security guards delivering cash to ATM machines over the past ten months.

Senior Garda officers have now decided to step up Operation Delivery, an investigation aimed at catching the ATM gangs which are thought to have netted around €2m from the raids.

The operation is aimed primarily at two gangs - one based in Finglas, in north Dublin, and the other on the southside - believed to be responsible for the bulk of the robberies.

A special team of detectives drawn from the national bureau of criminal investigation is spearheading the hunt for the robbers, in co-operation with local gardai.

The Finglas gang is being blamed for most of the raids carried out in north and west Dublin and in counties Meath, Louth and Kildare.

According to Justice Minister Michael McDowell enhanced security inside financial institutions is forcing the criminal gangs to concentrate on outside targets, such as cash and goods in transit.

The increase in the number of firearms in circulation has prompted the minister to draw up proposals for stiffer penalties for possession of guns. The measures may also include a mandatory minimum sentence.

These proposals are expected to be introduced in an amendment to the new Criminal Justice Bill 2004 when it is debated in the Dail in the autumn.

In the latest robbery, three raiders fired a shot as they held up staff from the Brinks Allied security firm as they delivered cash to an ATM machine in Bettystown, Co Meath, on Monday afternoon.

The firm had tightened up security on its vans after recent "hits" but the raiders managed to strike as the cash was about to be off-loaded from the van at Pat's supermarket. They threatened a security guard before the money was handed over.

They made their getaway in a Honda Accord car which had been stolen in Dublin on Friday. The vehicle was later found burnt out close to the scene.

Last month two men, wielding a sawn-off shotgun and a baseball bat, attacked two security men as they were taking cash from a Securicor van for an ATM machine at Marian Park in Drogheda.

They made off with two bags containing €80,000 cash.

In May, raiders escaped with €200,000 after holding up security staff delivering cash to an ATM machine at a service station at Lissenhall, Swords, Co Dublin.

The getaway vehicle was later found abandoned in Balbriggan.

Last March two armed robbers, wearing overalls and balaclava helmets, struck at the SuperValu premises in the Palmerstown shopping centre in west Dublin.

They snatched €217,000 from the startled Securicor staff and a store security guard, as the money was about to be loaded into the ATM machine.

Senior Garda officers describe the Finglas gang as highly organised.

They say some of its members appear to be experienced criminals.

The Finglas gang is also thought to have been behind recent ATM raids in Maynooth, Co Kildare, when over €200,000 was taken, and an unsuccessful robbery at Mother Hubbard's restaurant complex outside Enfield on the Kildare-Meath border.

Internal security measures are being reviewed by former senior garda officers who are now working with companies such as Securicor and Brinks Allied.

Gardai believe a south city gang is responsible for a €300,000 raid on a bank last month in Blackrock, Co Dublin, and a €200,000 hold-up at an ATM machine on the University College Dublin complex.

Tom Brady Security Editor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/3590896?view=Eircomnet

Garda must crack down on ATM raiders - Labour
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 14th July, 2004

Gardaí must step up their efforts to crack down on thieves who have stolen large amounts of cash from cash machines, the Labour party said today.


Speaking after a spate of incidents, the party's spokesman on justice, Mr Joe Costello said "sooner or later" a security guard or member of the public is going to be killed.

"The frequency of these robberies is most alarming... these raids demonstrate once again the easy access to weapons that gangs have and the casual way in which they are prepared to use them.

"The Minister for Justice has continually promised action to deal with these gangs, but, as with the 2000 extra gardaí, we have not seen a single legislative or policing initiative to put the gangs out of business and their leaders behind bars," Mr Costello added.

More than €500,000 is believed to have been taken in the latest robbery from an ATM on Monday in Bettystown, Co Meath. A Dublin gang is suspected of being behind the raid.

During the incident one of the security staff was held at gunpoint and two of the three gang members fired a number of shots from two sawn-off shotguns before they escaped with over €500,000.

An estimated €80,000 was taken in a similar raid at a supermarket in Drogheda last month.

chewy

yeah i noticed this, i particularily noticed the ones where they ripped the atm out of the wall...

and remember those mini cameras and card makng stuff they found attached to the atm...

did they ever sort out that arguement they werr having over who would pay for the amy escorts?

sounds easy i migh ahve a trry:)

i wonder if they've tried to nick those ickle atms in the shops?

gobby

I know a fella who chased the lads who took money from the atm in Maynooth. Bad idea considering they were armed. Still, they got away.

Maybe they need to rethink the system that they use for delivering the money. What would be wrong with a sealed system where the van is driven right up to a gap in the wall. I know that it's not practical for every atm. Also, it could cost a lot to set up, even in a few locations.

I'm not so sure that army escorts would be the best idea either. I see two possible outcomes there. Either the gangs stop or the gangs start to shoot at the army. I think the second case is unlikely but I would ssay that it could still happen!

Imposter

If the value being transported is over a certian amount the Guards are notified. AFAIK they sometimes have an unmarked car travelling alongside the money. If they have a tip-off or whatever you can be pretty sure they'll be there. The main problem with these things seems to be that the access to the banks is an unbelieveable weak link. Often the security guards will have to walk quite a distance to the bank entrance thus leaving them far more vulnerable.

leeroybrown

Unless the system has changed in the last few years, major money deliveries to banks already get full army escorts with a number of 4x4's, the soldiers to fill them, live ammunition and quite often air escorts (planes) circling overhead. What armed raiders in their right mind would knowingly take on ten or more soldiers armed with fully automatic assault rifles.

Ripping ATM's out of walls and particularly out of shops is an easy way to get away with money. All they need to do then is get the ATM open (which can be quite a bit of work). Banks should outfit their ATM's with dye systems that mark the notes in the ATM in response to a large impact. This would eliminate the possibility of criminals getting notes that can be passed on after the crime.

THe biggest point of vulnrability will always be when an unescorted delivery van stops to make a transfer. The only realistic way to deal with this is armed escort. It should easily pay for itself given the spate of robberies of late.

gobby

Originally posted by leeroybrown
...Banks should outfit their ATM's with dye systems that mark the notes in the ATM in response to a large impact. This would eliminate the possibility of criminals getting notes that can be passed on after the crime...

Here, here. I thought that was something that banks/security firms were already known for doing. When and why did this practice stop?

Tommy Vercetti

Banks still do that afaik, however there seems to be an ATM in every shop you go into these days, I think they are operated by an independent company.

leeroybrown

These ATM's are the ideal situation for the use of dye systems. The smaller ATM's are sometimes quite easy to grab from a poorly secured shop but the operation still needs some brute force.

bonkey

Why does this affect the cost of banking?

The security vans are the concern of the security companies. They are also insured. Any problem here is a cost incurred by the insurance company and/or the security company. The bank's money is perfectly safe.

The ATMs are the concern of the banks, but they too are insured, so the cost is borne by the insurer.

The only way this can become a cost to the consumer is if the insurers require higher premiums and/or additional securioty measures. These will then be passed through the chain, but the cost-per-customer at the end of it all should be utterly negligible.

Of course...having said that...it wouldn't surprise me to see the bank using it as an excuse to hike charges by an entirely unjustified amount.

jc

Sleipnir

The banks should definately be paying for escorts, they're making an absolute fortune so I don't see why it should only be up to the State to pay for it.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Unless the system has changed in the last few years, major money deliveries to banks already get full army escorts with a number of 4x4's, the soldiers to fill them, live ammunition and quite often air escorts (planes) circling overhead.

They very rarely have any air escorts.

Bard

Originally posted by gobby
Here, here. I thought that was something that banks/security firms were already known for doing. When and why did this practice stop?

When did it even start?

The cash cassettes that are loaded into standard bank ATM machines are very simple in their construction, easily broken into and don't feature any dyes or other security devices. Most of the time, the notes inside them are unsequential and un-traceable.

Any weekly ATM delivery (for one single machine) made by a security firm could be in the order of at least €100,000 - obviously this figure would be at least twice as big if it's a fortnightly delivery, and yes - the amount carried by an ATM delivery crew security van can easily reach up to €1m.

This obviously accounts for one of the single most attractive hits for any budding armed criminal gang and these security vans should be better protected. The policy of an armed or police escort for security vans, as far as I know, only applies to those vans which will be traveling outside of the radius of radio contact from their company base (for example Brink's base in Clonshaugh) - so, for example, vans doing runs collecting takings of branches of, say, A-Wear in Limerick, would have an armed escort for a large portion of the trip.

Armed escorts would also be sent along with large end-of-year deliveries (usually on or around Christmas eve) where substantial amounts of cash (in the low millions) would be delivered back to a secure bank installation (such as AIB Bankcentre in Donnybrook) as opposed to leaving it in the security companys headquarters over the holiday season.

Adding an armed or police escort to absolutely every ATM delivery run is unfeasible financially and impossible considering the manpower that would be required. Certainly, the cassettes used by the banks to load the ATM's should be more secure and possibly include a dye or other note mutilation system to deter thieves - but realistically, thieves would still hit them anyway.

As bonkey said, the security companies who make these drops are fully insured and their customers are covered against such robberies. It is disturbing to see this increased spate of ATM robberies occurring (including the one practically on my doorstep, in Bettystown..) but these can only be stopped by a more efficient Garda Síochána, systems to deter thieves such as the knowledge that what they steal will be rendered useless once they get the boxes opened, and perhaps (random!) armed escorts for the vans.

On another note, is it just me or is there quite an increase in such robberies specifically in the Meath/Louth area - particularly in and around Drogheda itself?

chewy

theres a pic in the times today of those fake atm devices

they look spot on, the panel with the button is pale over the the actual one and then one of those card slot that stick out reads the card too, very slick

im not sure if i'd spot it....

seem to putting them down the country where its quieter...

mike65

Originally posted by Bard
On another note, is it just me or is there quite an increase in such robberies specifically in the Meath/Louth area - particularly in and around Drogheda itself?

North Dublin based gangs I guess, or Provos.

Mike.

parsi

Originally posted by Sleipnir
The banks should definately be paying for escorts, they're making an absolute fortune so I don't see why it should only be up to the State to pay for it.

So the banks pay for it, then spread that cost over our bank charges and we end up paying for it anyway...

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Why does this affect the cost of banking?

Insurance companies don't like loosing money so the will insist on stricter, even over the top, security measures. The amount of money stolen is relatively small in the context of the economy, its the psychological effect that "anyone can rob a bank" is the problem. No armed robber worth his salt will ever take on an armed escort. Eventually some amateur will try it and people will end up dead.

The ATMs in shops only carry very small amounts of money and generally aren't "worth" robbing.

Capt'n Midnight

[misquote] The banks should definately be paying for escorts, they're making an absolute fortune so I don't see why it should only be up to the State to pay for it.
...
So the banks pay for it, then spread that cost over our bank charges and we end up paying for it anyway...[/quote] The reason the army got involved was because certain terrorist/criminal orginisations were fundraising this way because the Banks did not spend the money on security.

If it costs €50,000 for each security guard including transport and equipment and admin and overtime and employeers PRSI etc. per year then €1m would only get you 20 of them - not a lot especially if they work shifts. So it's cheaper for the bank in many cases to take the hit. Since it breeds crime and funds other criminal activities it is not cheaper for society.

Compared to the amounts AIB in particular have overcharged people or lost through incompentant management saving money on cash delivery security shows that profit is more important than security.

Victor

Originally posted by Sleipnir
The banks should definately be paying for escorts, they're making an absolute fortune so I don't see why it should only be up to the State to pay for it.

Didn't Bank of Ireland just fire their boss for looking for escorts?

Victor

And once more

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/07/16/story157312.html

Guard injured in Dublin security van raid
16/07/2004 - 10:40:47

A security guard has been hospitalised after he was assaulted during an armed raid at a shopping centre in the Rathfarnham area of Dublin this morning.

The injured man was pushed to the ground and assaulted during the incident, but his injuries are not believed to be serious.

The raid began at around 8.30am, when two men armed with a sawn-off shotgun approached a security van delivering cash to an EBS branch at the shopping centre.

The raiders stole a number of cash boxes before fleeing the scene in a waiting car that was found abandoned a short time later. No shots were fired during the robbery.

arcadegame2004

The banks should definately be paying for escorts, they're making an absolute fortune so I don't see why it should only be up to the State to pay for it.

As someone who personally witnessed a getaway by 2 individuals who robbed a post-office in Wexford town (I didn't realise at first this was so until I heard someone scream that they had a sawn-off shotgun - they were on a motorbike near Wexford cinema then they fell off and ran and by the time the Gardai arrived they had cleared off), I would have to say that far too many of our Gardai are being used as office-fodder instead of being where they should be - on our streets.

To be fair, I see army escorts at my local bank almost every fortnight now but a greater concentration of Gardai near post-offices is needed aswell. No wonder we have such a problem with this sort of thing.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
but a greater concentration of Gardai near post-offices is needed aswell.

Most post offices carry relatively little cash, certainly not enough for a professional armed robber, whatever about oppurtunists and wanna-bes.

Lenny

Brinks don't travel with over 1.5million without escort. now I don't see how garda escorts do anything, they don't have guns. as for the army, they can't shoot until shot at. securicor on the other hand have a different policy, they want escorts only if they carry excess of 2million, just a garda escort would do them, if carrying over 5mil 1 army escort.
the banks are in talks weather or not to help to "contribute" to brinks and securicors insurance premiums - which I think is only fair to do aswell.
But as the fact remains, cit vans will always get raided and theres nothing to really do, people are willing to kill for mobile fones even these days.
Though a nice soulution would be the get the brinks vans that they have in canada/us
now they are cool

Victor

Originally posted by Lenny
now I don't see how garda escorts do anything, they don't have guns.

The smaller escorts will have two detectives with Uzis and .38 pistols. the extended escosts will have at least 2 x garda patrol cars, 1 unmarked garda car, 2 x army 4WD. Total 8 gardaí, 8 soldiers. At least, 4 x Steyr Aug, 4 x Uzi and 4 x.38

Originally posted by Lenny
as for the army, they can't shoot until shot at.

I'm sure someone will come along and explain "defence of post".

Lenny

NO I do not know were the **** you're getting those escorts from .
But I work in aib, and my department is the department that gives securicor and brinks the atm money and we also take the money back off them.
and I have never, seen an escort that big before.
As for the smaller escorts, I do see ones with just having 1 marked car, and others with just an unmarked car.
I've never seen the fat lazy pigs get out of their cars when the brinks trucks come up to the entrance point or anything.

Victor

"Over €1 million" stolen seems modest and not to correllate with the large numbers of stories of the last six months with each having 'at least' €100,000 stolen.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/3661208?view=Eircomnet

Four released after questioning over armed raids
From:ireland.com
Sunday, 25th July, 2004

Four questioned over a series of armed raids on cash transit vans in Dublin this year were released last night and files are being sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

They were part of a group of eight people arrested yesterday and on Thursday following co-ordinated raids by gardai on Friday.

Of the eight two women and one man were released in Friday and files have been sent to the DPP. Another man has been remanded in custody after appearing in Dublin District Court yesterday charged with robbery.

Police are investigating a number of armed raids in which over €1 million has been stolen. There have been more armed robberies in the first six months of this year than in 2003 and 2002 combined.

Responding to the increased number of raids gardai initiated Operation Delivery in June to target a well-known Dublin gang believed to be involved in the robberies.

This operation is led by Chief Supt Martin Donnellan of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation.

ressem

NO I do not know were the **** you're getting those escorts from .

Perhaps it's because I'm close to an army base, but I often see the extended escort on their route.

Also when at AIB branch, the soldiers do cover the entrances.

mike65

As it seems to be so easy, I was wondering.....

Boards ATM Bash anyone? :ninja:

Mike.