Is this legal?

rainbow kirby

I was just down in my local shop a few minutes ago, grabbing a few drinks because my friends are coming over later. I'm 20 and was carrying my passport as ID. The girl at the till refused to serve me without a Garda ID.
I just want to know is it legal when I'm carrying a recognised form of ID, the highest form of ID in the land, for a shop not to serve me like that?
By the way, the store manager was an obnoxious cow when I questioned her, and basically tried to make me feel like a little 16 year old scumbag drinking in a field. And the girl on tills almost left me 8 euro short in my change from the big bottle of coke I eventually bought.
</rant>

Imposter

I don't think that's legal. I don't know exactly what you can do about it (no more than pubs refusing you) either.

I wouldn't have bought the coke though if I was you!

Basq

You should have definantly been served with a Passport.

Providing it's your Passport, that is!

Dewey

I think once you produce ID they have to serve you. i not sure about that but if you showed your passport then they really should be serving you.

rainbow kirby

It was mine... clearly stating 'Date of birth: 24th June 1984'. And I need coke to live...

castie

As someone who works in bars, your passport does not have to be accepted
in fact you should not be using it at an off-license, it is meant for international travel and you are meant to take extreme care of it as they are worth an awful lot of money to other people, so as far as i know it is legal what she has done and im not sure but it could be illegal what you have done using your passport, only a guess so dont flame me on it

Duffman

To quote meh from this thread

There is no legal basis for refusing to serve someone because they don't have one particular form of government id. A driving license (full or provisional), a passport and an age card are the exact same thing for the purposes of the relevant legislation..

Tell them this next time service is refused. If that doesn't work, offer nicely to call a member of the Gardai to clarify your point..

Dun

Don't forget that no shop has to serve you - legally you're "negotiating a contract" with them when you (attempt to) buy something.

Micheal Wittman

Interesting, I remember last year a guy was on the news over the exact same situation. Passport, Petrol station etc.

Anyway he filed an age discrimination case with the equalities commission (there in the phone book, in the government section) and won. They gave him something like 5000 Euro.

Hope this helps

Herr Krupp Of Essen

lodgepole

You'd really wonder though... Owning a fake passport is ridiculously illegal, yet the off license owner and employee essentially accused you of having one. I would get the Gardai on the phone immediately and wouldn't leave.

Runfree

The management has the right to refuse serving anyone or even refuse entry to the premisses without a valid reason. Sorry mate. As regards the 8 euro left short all you can do is go to the gardai about that I wreckon but doubt its worth the hassle.

Supercell

I cant understand this either, I remember many years ago trying to cash a travellers cheque in London in a Llyods bank.

I showed them my passport and the person behind looked at me like she thought i was an offiliated IRA member and asked for another ID (note only one id was supposed to be provided), I showed my student card...FAAAR more easy to fake and that was accepted.

Seems some ppl have a thing about passports, from my hazy recollection of Law in uni , you are mearly making an "offer to treat" in a shop..they can refuse you for what ever reason they like..ie, your too tall , too small, fat , thin, blond, ginger ..or no reason at all.

lodgepole

Originally posted by Runfree
The management has the right to refuse serving anyone or even refuse entry to the premisses without a valid reason. Sorry mate. As regards the 8 euro left short all you can do is go to the gardai about that I wreckon but doubt its worth the hassle.

Could a shop owner refuse to serve a black person by the same logic?

If the reason given is that the person is underage or that they have no valid ID, when in fact that person does hold the required ID, then no they don't have the right to refuse service. Ring the equality officer and ask them.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by -=Castaway=-
As someone who works in bars, your passport does not have to be accepted
in fact you should not be using it at an off-license, it is meant for international travel and you are meant to take extreme care of it as they are worth an awful lot of money to other people, so as far as i know it is legal what she has done and im not sure but it could be illegal what you have done using your passport, only a guess so dont flame me on it

A passport is a form of legal ID issued by the government. You have to accept this, it is illegal for a bar to not accept it.

The fact that it's used for International Travel means nothing. Passports are the hardest of Government issued IDs to forge and that's why banks generally require you to produce one when you open a bank account.

Yes, what she did was illegal and you can have her on that but I'd wait until the legal expert comments in this thread first before doing anything. Roll on Sceptre...

Tommy Vercetti

I reckon it's too late to do anything about it now, there's a range of excuses she can give for not serving you. For one she could claim that you were drunk and she was legally obliged not to serve you. All you can do is say **** and shop elsewhere.

billy the squid

have had this happen to me once

counter staff: do you have id
Me : produces passport
Counter staff: we only accept garda age card
me: thats grand do you mind if I call the guards to find out why you wont serve me
counter staff: fine what do you want

as for the 8 euro short check your change before you leave the shop in futurre

Slutmonkey57b

The deal with the garda ID is that the licencee HAS to ask for it before any other id, but nobody is actually required to have one, so they can't refuse you if you don't have it. Typical Irish logic, eh? The reason is to get people used to the idea before the introduction of compulsory ID cards of course...

Bear in mind changes to the licencing laws recently mean not only that children are restricted in pubs but 18-21 year olds are also restricted after certain hours.

But in this case, no, the off licence had no right to refuse service since you produced valid ID.

simu

This happened to me too yesterday - I was buying drink at Tesco, they wouldn't accept my passport as ID and said that company policy was to accept garda ID only. I protested and asked if they were accusing me of having a fake passport but they wouldn't relent so in the end, my only option was to go away and leave all the groceries I'd intended to buy on the conveyor belt!

Does anyone have a link to an official government site with information of what constitutes a valid ID?

CareBear

A passport should be accepted. I was filling out forms the other day and the two forms of ID they would only accept were a birth cert or a passport!

Originally posted by simu
This happened to me too yesterday - I was buying drink at Tesco, they wouldn't accept my passport as ID and said that company policy was to accept garda ID only. I protested and asked if they were accusing me of having a fake passport but they wouldn't relent so in the end, my only option was to go away and leave all the groceries I'd intended to buy on the conveyor belt!

Does anyone have a link to an official government site with information of what constitutes a valid ID?

So what they were saying was that even a late 20's person who wouldnt in general have a garda ID and looked really young would be refused. Ye should have started taking out all your cards and ask them if they think you stole someones wallet in order to have the same name on all the card.

Victor

Originally posted by CareBear
A passport should be accepted. I was filling out forms the other day and the two forms of ID they would only accept were a birth cert or a passport!

Birth cert is not ID.

simu

Hmm...

Tesco are one of the retailers who insist on the National Age Card as the only form of ID accepted, as ‘it is the only legal option’ to ensure that they are protected from any legal action, a spokesperson said. But the decision to adopt this policy had not lead to a decline in sales, the spokesperson said.

From this site: http://www.checkout.ie/News.asp?ID=264 (I couldn't find mention of it on Tesco's own site) So, it's legal then?

As for the policy not leading to a decline in sales, they've certainly lost me as a customer - I'm never setting foot in there again. I got the drink and groceries without hassle in Dunnes later on.

Dar

The management has the right to refuse serving anyone or even refuse entry to the premisses without a valid reason.

Yes they have the right to refuse entry/sale without a reason, but they DO NOT have the right to refuse with an invalid reason.

"We don't want to serve you" - legal

"We don't want to serve you because we don't accept passports" - illegal

simu

Do you have an official source for that, Dar?

Dar

I work in a bar . Not 100% on the passport, althought I know it is illegal to give an invalid reason.

Stabshauptmann

If the propriater has any doubts about the authenticity of your ID they should not serve you, if your ID is legit phone the Gardí on the spot, thats that sorted.

Thats only if they say your ID is the reason they're not serving you, thay dont have to serve you if they dont want, there is no offer to sell goods on display to you only an invitation to treat, ie you can make an offer to buy.

If your ID is legit and a garda confirms it they still dont have to serve you if you are under 25 so long as they dont serve anybody else your age or younger within the last month or for the next month

In fact they can refuse to serve you for any reason other than
Gender
race
religion
member of the travelling comunity
family status
marital status
age (except in the situation above)
disability
and there is one more I cant think of

In_Diana_Jones

Originally posted by Duffman
To quote meh from this thread

There is no legal basis for refusing to serve someone because they don't have one particular form of government id. A driving license (full or provisional), a passport and an age card are the exact same thing for the purposes of the relevant legislation..

Tell them this next time service is refused. If that doesn't work, offer nicely to call a member of the Gardai to clarify your point..

This is civil and not criminal law! Therefore the Gardaí will not get involved...there ya go!

Stabshauptmann

Originally posted by In_Diana_Jones
This is civil and not criminal law! Therefore the Gardaí will not get involved...there ya go!

Gardí can validate the authenticity of your ID but they prob wont come out to some offlicense, they'll prob ask you to go to the barere is little point, the again Im not basing that on anything, ive never been in that situation. I was refused drink in Tesco once, I was persistant so they got the manager, no luck, then again I had NO Id and was underage at the time!

lodgepole

Originally posted by Necromancer
If your ID is legit and a garda confirms it they still dont have to serve you if you are under 25 so long as they dont serve anybody else your age or younger within the last month or for the next month

I'd like to see the legislation that says that... Never heard of it.

Slutmonkey57b

The licencee has to provide a reason for refusing service. Not being in posession of a Garda ID is not a valid reason as you are not legally required to obtain one - it is a voluntary scheme. Not being in posession of ANY ID is a valid reason though.

If you say to someone "I refuse to serve you" you must have a reason for doing so - "I don't want to" is not a reason. Failure to provide a reason allows the victim to fill in the blanks as to what the reason is and therefore you end up with a discrimination suit (which you won't win).

Saying that, once a licencee has determined a valid reason for not serving you, there is precisely nothing you can do about it. Also bear in mind that if you're asked to leave and refuse, then you are commiting an offence.

simu

So, should I write a letter of complaint to Tesco?

Repli

Id be confused after all that too simu :P
Everyone saying different things like its perfectly legal not to serve you, its illegal not to serve you if you have id, they dont have to accept passport, management reserves the right, etc, etc, etc
Does anyone actually have any solid facts cos Ive had a similar problem myself in the past

Kêrmêttê

Originally posted by Necromancer

In fact they can refuse to serve you for any reason other than
Gender
race
religion
member of the travelling comunity
family status
marital status
age (except in the situation above)
disability
and there is one more I cant think of

Would the other one you can't think of be
"by association" i.e., you are refused because of association/relation/in the company of all of the above eg. you're shopping companion is black/a traveller/a person of special needs etc??

BTW I get refused in pubs, clubs and off licences and I'm 30 ffs... ah the scourge of having an angelic face!
I just try on the hysterical screaming girlie thing and pull out my phone to ring the gardai and they usually shoo me into where I want to go anyway to avoid the fuss and attention!

Tusky

A friend and I were refused in Aldi on Friday. We are never really asked for I.D but this time we were, We both had passports and they wouldnt take them...:eek:

seamus

Right, let's get some things straight here.

A shop does not have to sell anything to anybody. The product is irrelevant.

Any licenced establishment has the right to refuse sale or admission to anybody. They are no obliged to provide a good reason. However, they are not allowed to refuse you on discriminatory grounds. So "Sorry, you can't come in" is fine, whereas, "Sorry, you can't come in because we don't like travellers in here" is not.
In the former case, the onus is on the person to prove that in fact you were singled out (say someone similarly dressed and also not drunk enters while you're arguing), and the courts can then rule in your favour.

Saying that "We don't accept passports" is fine. It may sound strange, but the passport has very little authority. Read it. It says, "Please allow this person access to your country and the hospitality of your people" (or something like that). It also says (Afaik) that holding it does not confer upon you any rights or entitlements. Passport is perfectly admissable as identification to the state - after all, they issued it - but an individual can decide if he does or does not accept it. A club can issue its own membership card and say that it accepts nothing but this - in fact, quite a lot do. It can also choose to accept any other form of identification, over the Garda ID. As people have said, you can get a Garda to say, "I certify that this person is who they say they are on the passport".

Now for all intents and purposes, they can still say, "I don't accept this Garda's word", but in any Irish court, that's perfect for grounds for claiming - "They have another discrimnatory reason for not serving me" - because they have no reason not to accept the Garda's (and by inheritance, the state's) word.

So bottom line:
1. The shop has the right to refuse service to anyone.
2. The shop has the right to decide what ID they do and do not accept.
3. All matters are civil. You can ask a Garda to confirm or deny your identity, and the validity of your passport, but they cannot force the shop to do anything (see point one).

Woden

Originally posted by In_Diana_Jones
This is civil and not criminal law! Therefore the Gardaí will not get involved...there ya go!

yeah i was on the receiving end of this line when a friend of ours was refused from a pub on the basis he wasn't 21. went to gards they said its a civil thing not criminal and basically couldn't do anything about this.

actually a couple of us where refused from the odeon the other week when my friend said he was 22 apparently its over 23's

whats the law on this these days, was that equal status act revoked or something?

data

seamus

Originally posted by Dataisgod
whats the law on this these days, was that equal status act revoked or something?

data

If they have a sign up saying that's it's over 23's, they're allowed then discriminate on the basis of age. :rolleyes:

Most clubs could easily be sued on this though, if people bothered, as they either don't put the sign in an easily visible position (as required by law), or you'll see them blatantly letting women in under the posted age.

simu

So all I can do is boycott Tesco personally.

They could at least put up a prominent sign explaining their ID policy instead of letting people fill up their trollies and then telling them to get lost. :mad:

Repli

Originally posted by seamus
If they have a sign up saying that's it's over 23's, they're allowed then discriminate on the basis of age. :rolleyes:

Most clubs could easily be sued on this though, if people bothered, as they either don't put the sign in an easily visible position (as required by law), or you'll see them blatantly letting women in under the posted age.

Age discrimination is illegal isnt it? Just because the signs up doesnt mean anything - If they put a sign up saying 'no blacks' they wouldnt get away with it. Same principal applies when saying 'no under 23s'.

Woden

Originally posted by seamus
If they have a sign up saying that's it's over 23's, they're allowed then discriminate on the basis of age. :rolleyes:

Most clubs could easily be sued on this though, if people bothered, as they either don't put the sign in an easily visible position (as required by law), or you'll see them blatantly letting women in under the posted age.

k cheers seamus, the first place i mentioned did have a sign, that was 4 dame lane and we went to look at it, didn't bother looking at the odeon though

OLDYELLAR

id say you could have them up for that , that sounds very dodgy , sounds more like she just didnt like the look of you , sure its a valid form of ID was it in date ? id say the only grounds for not accepting it would be if it was out of date

seamus

Originally posted by Repli
Age discrimination is illegal isnt it? Just because the signs up doesnt mean anything - If they put a sign up saying 'no blacks' they wouldnt get away with it. Same principal applies when saying 'no under 23s'.

Nope. Nazi McDowell added in a clause that allows publicans to discriminate based on age, as long as they let everyone know they're doing it :rolleyes:

Imposter

In relation to pubs and them being able to set the age limit: The legislation says they can set the age as they wish once a sign is displayed. Now assuming a sign is displayed who would someone contact if they thought, or were sure, this policy was not being enforced fairly?

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Dataisgod

whats the law on this these days, was that equal status act revoked or something?

McDowell is doing his best to revoke it alright, comparing the Equality Authority to left wing hippies. He has stated that inquality is good for the country as it makes us work harder.

briano

Up until about five minutes ago I would have agreed with the people in this post saying passports are legal. But it actually specifies "age card" in the Intoxicating liquor Act 2000:

''(7) In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that he or she used all due diligence to prevent the person under the age of 18 years in respect of whom the charge is brought from being admitted to the premises or any part of the premises which is used exclusively or mainly for the sale of intoxicating liquor for consumption off the premises or that the person produced to him or her an age card relating to that person.''.

Here is where I got that from.

briano

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section age document means a docu-ment containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and infor-mation that enables the age of the person to 15 be determined, being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:
(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act, 20
(b) a passport,
(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Com-munities,
(d) a driver licence, or 25
(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

And thats from the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2003. So, Passports are OK. Christ these things are confusing.

LizardKing

whatever happened to "the Customer is always right" ... when younger I went thru this with off licences , bars , pubs and clubs ... I remeber ( I was about 23) and got asked for id for smokes ... :rolleyes:

nlgbbbblth

Originally posted by seamus
Right, let's get some things straight here.

A shop does not have to sell anything to anybody. The product is irrelevant.

1. The shop has the right to refuse service to anyone.

hmmm

kinda puts me off going shopping

Cabaal

Originally posted by Dataisgod
actually a couple of us where refused from the odeon the other week when my friend said he was 22 apparently its over 23's

Very stupid premises if they have a sign up saying no under 23's or evben if they say it to people, you could have so nice legal fun with that one

Stabshauptmann

no you couldnt, the premises can set any age limit as high as 25 so long as its not lower than 18.