immigration, scary goings on.

tylerdurden

Had my first experience of our immigration officers today - a foreign national I came in contact with recently was 'disappeared' by our system. Immigration officers came to his house on the evening of the 5th and told him that he'd have to go with them. I happened to be there and asked him twice if everything was ok (they didn't seem to be there for him initially). He said everything was fine, so I took him at his word. I made the assumption he had to go with them to make a statement or some such.

However the following morning I could not raise him on his mobile. He had turned it off shortly before the immigration officers had arrived. When I became worried I called immigration in Cork (where he had been residing) who knew nothing about him and suggested I call Dublin. I called Dublin and they knew nothing about him. Or at least they knew nothing until the fourth phone call at which point halfway through the call some more information became available, he had been arrested and a deportation order existed for him.

But nobody could tell me where he was. Or where he would be deported to. Or when.

The officers in charge of his case are field officers and not in the office much. But I can only get their office number. I was told that they look after the case to completion (deportation) and only then do they report back to the office. Until then nobody in the office knows any further details. No, I can't be patched through to a mobile. No, mobile numbers can't be given out.

I called the prisons and he's not listed in the prison system. I tried Cork airport he's not being held there.

His legal representation can't find him either.

So where is he?

Right now I have no idea whether or not the deportation has been carried out, nor do I know whether it's justified or has been carried out using correct due process, but regardless of validity of deportation do we really live in a state where the officials can just make somebody disappear?

It would seem so.

Thoughts?

DublinWriter

Yes, as the recent dawn raids on Romanians by the Garda proved.

They picked them up at 6am, on a chartered plane back to Romania by 10am.

Happened back in March as far as I remember.

According to a flight-attendant friend of mine, the lads made full advantage of the trolley service on the flight home.

I'm not stating opinion here (for a change!) just fact.

Expect the usual 'oh all these people are bleeding our system dry' replies.

flogen

I'm also not going to voice an opinion on the rights and wrongs of immigration in general or in this case (especially as I dont know the full facts)

however, i will say that that is pretty scary, the way someone can just be taken and possibly shipped out of the country within hours. I would have thought his legal representation would at least have been notified about it... and allowed them to contact him before he went anywhere.

flogen

Victor

Originally posted by tylerdurden
His legal representation can't find him either.

That seems odd. He could of course try habeas corpus or having a chat with a TD.

Originally posted by flogen
however, i will say that that is pretty scary, the way someone can just be taken and possibly shipped out of the country within hours. I would have thought his legal representation would at least have been notified about it... and allowed them to contact him before he went anywhere.

Thats the nasty thing about rights, the cops only really tell you the summary of them, they don't expaling them or say "I'll phone your solicitor now so you can talk to him".

arcadegame2004

I agree that there should be more transparency. However, it must be remembered that an extremely tiny minority of our asylum-seekers actually get removed from this State. If accepting genuine refugees is a cornerstone of a good immigration-policy, then so too is deporting illegal-immigrants. I totally reject the idea that anyone in Ireland having come here originally from Romania, having crossed several EU national-boundaries, is a genuine refugee. Let them stay in the first EU state they enter, like Greece, or one of the 10 new member-states. A good few Romanians took the legal-route and got work-permits. If they intend to work let them prove it by applying for a work-permit. Should they not do this, then people like me will feel that our suspicions are confirmed.

Xterminator

Originally posted by flogen
however, i will say that that is pretty scary, the way someone can just be taken and possibly shipped out of the country within hours. I would have thought his legal representation would at least have been notified about it... and allowed them to contact him before he went anywhere.

flogen

What other pratical way is there?

If you make an appointment with them, in advance you can be sure a percentage of them will go 'on the run' to escape deportation!

And if you were to notify their legal representative, the same dnager exists.

Quite simply it has to be done unexpectedly, for the system to work. Again this is withiout discussing the rights and wrongs, just the practicalities.

X

bonkey

Originally posted by Xterminator
Quite simply it has to be done unexpectedly, for the system to work.

I'd agree, but surely that means that there is an additional onus to make sure that each case is properly documented.

"Umm, yessss, we might have raided that house, and it would appear we managed to get what we came for, but no-one knows who it was, where he/she is, or why it was done".

Sorry, that doesn't cut it for me....especially since the establishment of a link to the why would - for me - be an absolute requirement in the process.

jc

Hobbes

Originally posted by flogen
however, i will say that that is pretty scary, the way someone can just be taken and possibly shipped out of the country within hours. I would have thought his legal representation would at least have been notified about it... and allowed them to contact him before he went anywhere.

No offense, but generally you have to talk to INS when you get here and they give you times to talk to them again. It is up to you to leave before your deported.

He was here illegally, he got deported. It is more likely the system hasn't processed for them to answer. But a soliciter should certainly be able to find his location.

rs

I'm no big fan of illegal immigrants in general. But collecting and deporting in the same day does seem a little severe.

What if they have the wrong person?

Mistakes like this are bound to happen.

There should be at least a few days holding period before people are actually put on planes and shipped off.

Obviously friends and relatives of these people deserve to know what has happened to them. (or at least just given a chance to say goodbye)

Deportation may have to happen, but we can at least do it properly.

Hobbes

Originally posted by rs
What if they have the wrong person?

Mistakes like this are bound to happen.

If your Irish you have to show some form of ID.

If your immigrant then you have to show your passport and/or your immigration card.

If you can't show that, your Illegal.

Even then though, if you have registered with immirgration they will have your details and photo on file.

If you have lost your passport or card your supposed to report it straight away to the gardai.

I very much doubt they were just rounding up people without doing this first.

tylerdurden

As I stated in my original post, I am not making a statement for or against deportation itself... but what Hobbes says is correct, actually you are obliged to give notice of deportation as far as I know (Extracts from the Handbook on Immigrants’ Rights and Entitlements in Ireland for Persons Residing in the State without Permission from the Immigrant Council of Ireland ).

Hobbes also says
It is more likely the system hasn't processed for them to answer.

What I worry about is that the system is set up intentionally in such a way that the information is not to hand. It could be very easily in this amazing age of telecommunications.

The latest is the solicitor is faxing Repatriation in Immigration and then they will release details.

Hobbes

Was he legally here to begin with? If not hes probably back at his home country.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by Hobbes
Was he legally here to begin with? If not hes probably back at his home country.

Just located him. He is actually not in his home country but as per Dublin Convention his application for refugee status has been transferred to another
country, and he has been deported there.

To the best of my knowledge he made mistakes regarding procedure which led directly to his deportation.

BUT my issue is not with his deportation but with the manner in which obfuscation and misderection kept his friends AND solicitor ignorant of his whereabouts until he was out of the country.

I have heard and formulated several theories as to why this is, but the reasons irrelevant really:

There is no reason, legal or otherwise, why we should be kept in the dark as to a persons whereabouts while they are in custody of the state.

Sleepy

I see no reason why someone who's in this country illegaly should be allowed legal representation. If you have no right to be here, you have no right to be here. All your proposing is a delay in the inevitable and the lining of lawyers pockets with taxpayers money.

It is disconcerting that there appears to be so few checks and balances but I'm sure the officials concerned could offer a few of the procedures in place. Still, it would have been nice if they could have patched you through to a mobile so you could at least get a future contact point for a friend.

There is no reason, legal or otherwise, why we should be kept in the dark as to a persons whereabouts while they are in custody of the state

I'd agree with you if you had some family relationship with the person, but nobody has mentioned that 1) he may have been notified prior to his departure, and 2) that the person who made these enquires is not a relative of the person.

If you go to a hospital, you're not going to get operation results, unless you can prove that you're related to the individual in question. Until you prove that you have a legal right to that info. Which I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by Sleepy
I see no reason why someone who's in this country illegaly should be allowed legal representation. If you have no right to be here, you have no right to be here. All your proposing is a delay in the inevitable and the lining of lawyers pockets with taxpayers money.

Well, someone in the country illegally IS allowed legal representation, thank God. Things are bad enough as it is, I have heard enough stories now from such legal representation to make me really wonder about the country I live in. Without such legal representation many people I've heard of whos rights have been totally abused by the state would never have realised they had recourse, and many of them had valid claims to asylum.

Regarding communicating with people being deported, I also heard yesterday from a legal person who deals with immigration all the time that they routinely confiscate a persons mobile phone so that they cannot call their legal representative. Needless to say this is not something that they are required to do by law and in fact I think is probably illegal.

Kappar

Sorry I don;t have time to read this entire thread but you may wan to try Art. 40.4.2 of the constitution.

2° Upon complaint being made by or on behalf of any person to the High Court or any judge thereof alleging that such person is being unlawfully detained, the High Court and any and every judge thereof to whom such complaint is made shall forthwith enquire into the said complaint and may order the person in whose custody such person is detained to produce the body of such person before the High Court on a named day and to certify in writing the grounds of his detention, and the High Court shall, upon the body of such person being produced before that Court and after giving the person in whose custody he is detained an opportunity of justifying the detention, order the release of such person from such detention unless satisfied that he is being detained in accordance with the law.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by klaz
I'd agree with you if you had some family relationship with the person, but nobody has mentioned that 1) he may have been notified prior to his departure, and 2) that the person who made these enquires is not a relative of the person.

If you go to a hospital, you're not going to get operation results, unless you can prove that you're related to the individual in question. Until you prove that you have a legal right to that info. Which I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.

His legal representation could not get the information either. And his legal representation told me that there was no reason why he should be incommunicado.

If he was in custody he should be on the computer system and should have visitation rights. I should have been able to locate him and visit him.

spongebob

The yanks would do the same to us (bar maybe the INS grudgingly facilitating a habeas corpus) but in the end you will be dumped outta the plane in Shannon and barred from going to the US for ten years to boot....and all within a week to 10- days .

The way things are going in the developed world you keep your head well down if you have no right to be in the country and if you are caught then tough.


M

Hobbes

Originally posted by tylerdurden
Just located him. He is actually not in his home country but as per Dublin Convention his application for refugee status has been transferred to another
country, and he has been deported there.

He wasn't a refugee to begin with was he? He was here illegally in the country.

Sounds like he only claimed that because he realised he was getting deported, only then realising that refugees are handled in the first country they enter.

flogen

Xterminator, Hobbes, Im not saying I have a better way, or the government are totally wrong to be like this and the guy taken was innocent etc etc... Its just wierd that, even after his arrest, his legal team wernt told about him, a simple 'OK, he was warned, he was staying here illegally, so were putting him on the 2 o clock to xyz, see you'. I know the deportation is the last thing to happen, and there can be no more legal bits and bobs, but at least that way the legal people can tell whoever they need to of what has happened, just like tyler here.

flogen

tylerdurden

Originally posted by Hobbes
He wasn't a refugee to begin with was he? He was here illegally in the country.

Sounds like he only claimed that because he realised he was getting deported, only then realising that refugees are handled in the first country they enter.

How cynical you are.

You have to be given refugee status. Until you are given it you are here illegally. At least that is my understanding. He applied for asylum 18 months ago.

However as I said he then made mistakes which led to his deportation. If he hadn't made those mistakes the decision to deport him under the Dublin Convention may have been reversible.

If he was in custody he should be on the computer system and should have visitation rights. I should have been able to locate him and visit him.

Why? You were not a relative. In fact you seem to have no relationship with this guy, with the exception of him being "a foreign national I came in contact with recently ".

Regardless he commited a crime by being in this country illegally. I'm fairly sure that to be allowed visiting rights in most prisons, you need to earn them (By not causing trouble etc).

His legal representation could not get the information either. And his legal representation told me that there was no reason why he should be incommunicado.

Thats fair enough. I'd agree with you here. Legal rep should be given such info. However you should not be.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by klaz
Why? You were not a relative. In fact you seem to have no relationship with this guy, with the exception of him being "a foreign national I came in contact with recently ".

Regardless he commited a crime by being in this country illegally. I'm fairly sure that to be allowed visiting rights in most prisons, you need to earn them (By not causing trouble etc).



Thats fair enough. I'd agree with you here. Legal rep should be given such info. However you should not be.

And yet his solicitor told me there was no reason I should not be able to see him/visit him.

To be honest I am making the assumption here that the solicitor knows more than you do in this case. I may be wrong.

To be honest I am making the assumption here that the solicitor knows more than you do in this case. I may be wrong.

Oh you could be right. I'm making the assumption that such info is not released to the public at large. i.e. you. But the Solicitor should know better.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by klaz
Oh you could be right. I'm making the assumption that such info is not released to the public at large. i.e. you. But the Solicitor should know better.

One of the problems regarding this type of thing is that unless you are willing to devote a large part of your life to research you are not going to know the ins and outs when something like this happens.

How do you actually find out if a friend can gain access to someone in custody under a deportation order. It probably depends on a lot of factors such as where he is being held, conditions of custody etc...

People like me - and foreign nationals - have to depend on either the authorities or legal representation. Which is why it's imperative that even illegal aliens have rights to legal representation - bacause the authorities will create as much of a smoke screen as possible.

I really believe that certain individuals in 'officialdom' were honestly trying to help me when I was trying to find my friend. But the system was set up such that the information was not there to give me. As previously pointed out it seems that information only became available when he had left the country.

So the authorities cannot really be depended on, which leaves only the option of a solicitor who deals with similar cases. You just have to hope to god they know what they are up to!

spongebob

Otherwise how can they do a Habeas Corpus if that is the best option.

I am not sure about the rights of a non relative to make contact though.

M

MadsL

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I totally reject the idea that anyone in Ireland having come here originally from Romania, having crossed several EU national-boundaries, is a genuine refugee. Let them stay in the first EU state they enter, like Greece, or one of the 10 new member-states.

As we all know your opinion is like, TOTALLY legal, unlike the stupid EU LAW.

A good few Romanians took the legal-route and got work-permits. If they intend to work let them prove it by applying for a work-permit. Should they not do this, then people like me will feel that our suspicions are confirmed.

Your suspicions will always jump to conclusions. They are prejudices not suspicions.

arcadegame2004

Not prejudices, MadsL, but suspicions based on very reasonable analysis.

cleareyed

Curious mix of issues here:
Habeas corpus, as noted, was the way to go. Trusting the agents of the state to be correct about everything everytime is very unwise: hence the need for checks on their activities. Were you aware that this person was an illegal while you were with them? Are you liable to prosecution? Where did he get the mobile? What was he doing here?
I think that Irish people have a generous nature which veers into naivete when it comes to emotive issues like this.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by cleareyed
Curious mix of issues here:
Habeas corpus, as noted, was the way to go. Trusting the agents of the state to be correct about everything everytime is very unwise: hence the need for checks on their activities. Were you aware that this person was an illegal while you were with them? Are you liable to prosecution? Where did he get the mobile? What was he doing here?
I think that Irish people have a generous nature which veers into naivete when it comes to emotive issues like this.

I don't agree I think we're a pretty mean spirited tight fisted bunch who are over protective of our relatively new found wealth.

I didn't know his status in my contact with him and I'm not liable for prosecution. He arrived here looking for asylum, he didn't follow procedure and it turns out he had claimed asylum in another country prior to arrival here (or so I'm told) which explains the Dublin Convention.

I don't know where he got his mobile.

What he was doing here was seeking asylum....

There are a curious mix of issues, but the fact is that even if he was a drug lord or human trafficker the states procedures should be transparent.

I spoke to one of the arresting officers today and he told me he updated the system himself early morning of the day I spent searching - so my first phone call should have yielded results. But it didn't.

I will say I did not come into contact with anyone obnoxious or rude (well, actually one or two but they were the exceptions). Everyone has been very nice, but the fact remains the process should be transparent and it's not. I don't mean I think it should be transparent I mean as it stands it is supposed to be.

I have spoken to many people working to help asylum seekers, voluntary organisations and legal people and they all have had the same complaint. People who they should have access to simply disappear and only reappear once they are on foreign soil again.

Hobbes

From what I gather is you had no face to face contact with anyone there. Add to that your no relation to him, so it is was understandable that they would no give no information.

His representative got the information, again I may be wrong but you seem to imply that he also did not have a face to face with anyone until later.

tylerdurden

Originally posted by Hobbes
From what I gather is you had no face to face contact with anyone there. Add to that your no relation to him, so it is was understandable that they would no give no information.

His representative got the information, again I may be wrong but you seem to imply that he also did not have a face to face with anyone until later.

A face to face is not required.
His representative got the information when I did. In other words when it was too late to try to stop his leaving the country.

The information was not sensitive or restricted. An officer called me and gave the information. However this was close to 48 hours after the man was taken by Immigration.

Trust me please, it is not understandable. Nor is was it for legal reasons. The officer said to me himself that the information should have been on the system and accessible when I first called.