Should the Ireland form a special partnership with the UK within the EU?

gom

Ireland and the UK are the only primarily English specking countries within the EU. We both joined at the same time in 1973 and both have a strong/close relationship with the US.
In addition to these simularities:

1. Ireland linked its currency to the UK for many years and within the EMS
2. We both have a Common Law tradition. Unique with in the EU
3. We both have relativly Low Taxation systems in comparison to the rest of the EU (the UK being more Progressiive and Ireland more Regressive in Taxation)
4. The UK along with Ireland both have an interest in an Inter-governmental EU
5. Both of us strongly reject Corporate Tax Cohesion with in the EU
6. Both of us don't view the others country as 'Foreign'
7. The UK and Ireland both have self-interest in maintaning a balance between the EU and the US

Considering the great working relationship Ireland and the UK have had (except of course the Tatcher era) surely we could forge these strong ties for the better.
The Franco-German Motor with in the EU historically held the reins of power and drove the EU forward. Recently and especially since teh expansion of the EU the Franco-German Motor is not as influencial as it used to be. This is where the opportunitly lies.

Ireland is in excellent standing as an EU state. We managed the un manageable. Agreement on the EU Constitution and a new EU Commission President. These are due to our civil servants and diplomats, not the politicians. Ireland is greatly admired in Eastern Europe as a Small state that benefited from EU membership and leads the EU confidently.

In the last 20 years EU sceptics have grow in numbers in the UK. This has had an impact on the level of pace of EU policies. The UK opted out of the EURO. They hold the EU to ransom over Foreign policy. And act with hostility to many EU actions.

By being in Partnership with Ireland the UK would have much to gain. Firstly they could see how EU membership can benefit a Pro-American English specking country. Secondly, a partnership with Ireland would add credit to the UK with in the EU.
Ireland and the UK would be a force to be reasoned with and could have a hugely important role in the future direction of the EU.

Victor

Eh, aren't we getting a bit big in our boots? Ireland represents only 1% of the population and 2% of MEPs (and admmittedly 4% of vetos).

The EU is run by the big 4 and the middle 3, if something is to go ahead, you need most of them to be on your side, the only real power the other 18 have is if the all stick together and or use vetoes.

Champ

Well i'm not too comfortable on the politics field; though i do have good relations with several UK companies.. especially amazon.co.uk. I've come to rely on the UK for high quality services so i definetly wouldn't be opposed. Yes the Sterling exchange definetly does breed some painful transactions; but they definetly know how to get things done especially in the tech area:) Can't really imagine life without business relations with the UK.

Naturally i'm for closer relations due to years of good business;)
Seems like relations couldn't be much better anyway:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3477743.stm

While i don't always agree with Blair's leadership; if anything he's proficent at his job; in the sense that despite numerous disasters / challenges he's still managed to keep his position; it's his territory and he knows it well.

He's for closer European relations i believe; and in that capacity i back him. Though with the current strength of the Independent supporters i think he's going to be at a stand still with his European objectives for quite a while.

I'm guessing it's going to be within another decade if and when the Euro might circulate in the UK :rolleyes:

Still.. roll on better Irish - British relations:cool:

simu

Ireland and the UK are already on good terms. If anything, this country concentrates too much on relations with the UK ignoring other EU countries. Ireland and the UK wouldn't be much more of a force than the UK on its own and this might turn out badly for Ireland as other countries would automatically lump us with Britain and Britain's Eurosceptic "tradition". iMO Ireland would be better off forging links with some of the other small EU countries and joining with them to form blocs when voting on issues.

BUMP!

Long and short of it is people never suffer from having good relationships with their neighbours.

The only thing is it has to be a 2 way street - the likes of sellafield and the North do really have to be sorted out and both countries have to stop hiding the truth. Each side should come clean on what is in the past, apologise for their respective mistakes and put it behind them for good.(I think anyway)

Saying that we aren't doing too badly - I would meet a lot of Europeans through work and it is a hell of a lot more enjoyable to go for a pint with most English lads that your average Dutch or German (simply because we do have a lot more in common).

mike65

What simu said. What we (by which I mean Ireland and UK) need is to make the France/German axis and its acolytes more like us.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

Originally quoted by mike65
Both of us don't view the others country as 'Foreign'

Oh don't we now? Well speak for yourself. I consider the UK to be foreign, although I agree we should strive for good relations with them. But not at the cost of Ireland's national interests. We must remain vociferous in our condemnation of that cancer-factory in Sellafield, and defensive of the rights of NI Nationalists, while co-operating to achieve IRA decommissioning and final disbandment with the restoration of devolution and the full implementation of the GFA. And of course we should continue to co-operate with the UK in blocking proposals at EU-level that we disagree with, including excessively pro-trade-union legislation. We should also push together for the completion of the single-market in sectors such as electricity, gas etc.

Originally quoted by Victor
Eh, aren't we getting a bit big in our boots? Ireland represents only 1% of the population and 2% of MEPs (and admmittedly 4% of vetos).

The EU is run by the big 4 and the middle 3, if something is to go ahead, you need most of them to be on your side, the only real power the other 18 have is if the all stick together and or use vetoes.

No Victor. The big countries have the ability to block any proposed EU-law, that is true, since in the policy areas governed by Qualified Majority Voting (i.e. a majority of the states (13) including 62% of the weighted vote) they would be able to form a blocking-minority of the weighted vote i.e. 38% of it, if they ALL voted together. However the big 5 or 6 hardly every seem to mount a common position against the rest. Witness for example how the French and Germans and the Belgians wanted Guy Verhofstadt for Commission President, while the UK, Italy and Poland objected. It emphasises then that the "big states" are far from being of one mind on all issues. Poland and the UK, together with Ireland, oppose pressure from France and Germany to harmonise taxes at EU level. Thankfully all EU states retain a veto on the taxation matter so no matter how many big/small states scream at us to harmonise EU taxes it wont happen unless all 25 EU states agree and that possibility is EXTREMELY remote.

What do you mean by us having "4% of the vetoes"?!?!?

In policy areas where the EU has the right to legislate, about 10% are dealth with by unanimity, meaning that each state has an absolute veto in those policy areas. The remainder are dealt with via QMV, but the weighted-vote is only PART of what is required to pass a measure in the EU Council of Ministers. You need a majority of the STATES also, which must coincide with 62% of the weighted vote if you are to pass something there. As only 6 countries (UK, France, Germany, Poland, Italy, Spain) have a population over 20 million, they would need 7 small countries to vote with them - with the totality of those countries equating to 62% of the weighted vote, in order to pass something. So this talk by some of the "dominance of France-Germany etc." is simply a myth, unless you define a blocking-minority as "dominance".

mike65

acarde you gimp! I did'nt say that Gom did!

Mike.

ps I agree as I'm a Brit!

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Both of us don't view the others country as 'Foreign'

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Oh don't we now? Well speak for yourself. I consider the UK to be foreign,

Of course there is the slight matter of the Treaty that stands between you and reality. The UK and Ireland are different countries, not foreign countries.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
What do you mean by us having "4% of the vetoes"?!?!?

Sarcasm (1/25=4%)

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
So this talk by some of the "dominance of France-Germany etc." is simply a myth, unless you define a blocking-minority as "dominance".

They have been dominating the agenda.

oscarBravo

As is so often the case, there's an important option missing from the poll, along the lines of: "No, because why the hell should we?" The only "no" option in the poll has a specific reason attached to it. This completely skews the result.

simu

Originally posted by oscarBravo
As is so often the case, there's an important option missing from the poll, along the lines of: "No, because why the hell should we?" The only "no" option in the poll has a specific reason attached to it. This completely skews the result.

True - it would be stupid to do the opposite of what the UK does automatically so I picked the middle option whereas my preferred option would have been a simple "no". Down with polls!

thejollyrodger

I voted the last option ..

If the UK was so euro sceptic and negative then maybe.But there is no such thing as a "special relationship"

Cork

Should Ireland and the Uk forge a Partnership with in the EU?

In areas in tax harmonisation - we already have.

If it is in our national interest. Why not?

halkar

Partnership within a Partnership :rolleyes: If something like this going to happen then other states will start forming their special Partnerships then what is the need for the EU?
I don't see the idea of EU working in the long term, too many nations and too many differences. If EU goes too deep in the laws of countries because the big 4 wants so it will take only a one mad nationalist man or woman to crack the union and we be back to pre-WW1 era.
To me Germany got what she wanted, Europe under their control but this time not with war.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Halkar
I don't see the idea of EU working in the long term, too many nations and too many differences. If EU goes too deep in the laws of countries because the big 4 wants so it will take only a one mad nationalist man or woman to crack the union and we be back to pre-WW1 era.

To me Germany got what she wanted, Europe under their control but this time not with war.

You are wrong. If Germany ran the EU then Guy Verhofstadt would have been the next President of the Commission. You're view that the EU is ruled by Germany or even Germany + France, is totally misinformed but I for one know very well that the usual crowd of Europhobes will be bleating out the usual rhetoric of "Brussels bureaucrats issuing dictats and directives and regulations..." etc. come the next EU referendum. The same prophecies of doom will be forthcoming from the very same tongues that warned us of terrible catastrophies if we signed up to the EU in 1972, and then if we signed up to the other 4 EU treaties since. Where is the conscription the No to Nice campaign warned us about? Where are the harmonised taxes? Their predictions have never come true and so it will continue. But that won't stop them scaremongering whenever we vote on the EU though. The same old same old rubbish. Yawn.

As I explained earlier in this thread, the big countries hardly ever side with each other in opposition to the small countries, and even if they did, with 19 of the 25 EU members being small countries (I define a small country as having less than 20 million people), at least 8 small countries would need to vote with the big 6 to get there way in a QMV policy area vote on EU legislation. And the legislation would firstly have to be approved by the EU Commission on which 19 of the Commissioners are from small countries. I very much doubt that such a Commission is going to assist the big states to dominate the small ones.

I am fed up with this demonisation of the "large" countries by the Eurosceptics. The fact that they are large does not automatically make them hostile to us or our interests. The enlargement of the EU has eroded the former power of the Franco-German engine to get its own way on EU issues and this has been vividly demonstrated by their failure to push through their preferred candidate last week.

The demonisation of Germany, in particular, is utterly outdated. Modern Germany has no militaristic ambitions or designs on the territory of its neighbours or any other country. Your dire predictions that the EU will eventually collapse are without foundation. Okay, so you say that our nations are very diverse, but then so too are those of the UN, and that shows no signs of collapsing. Comparisons by some Eurosceptics (especially in the UK) with Yugoslavia are ludicrous, especially when you consider that nationalistic hatreds have long since been consigned to the past between the EU's nations.

AngelofFire

Does the Anglo Irish trade agreement signed by Lemass still apply.

Magnolia_Fan

Yes, we should...straigh to the point

mike65

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Does the Anglo Irish trade agreement signed by Lemass still apply.

Never heard of that, but I'm sure all such bi-lateral trade agreements went west when we both joined the EU.

Mike.

thejollyrodger

I don't see the idea of EU working in the long term, too many nations and too many differences. If EU goes too deep in the laws of countries because the big 4 wan

Rubbish. With the present E.U the odds of one country dicating to the rest are the lowest in the history of Europe. Look at italy breaking the rules for the stability pack. Or the elections in Austria (the far right party..) Its very hard to break the concensus and act alone or break the rules. The E.U has brought peace stability and econmic growth (for those who want it), with increase globalisation it will become more and more important.