turkey in the EU?

Agent Smith

i see bush is going on how turkey should be a member of the eu, anyone have any view's on it?





is it a good thing? or a bad thing?

MeatProduct

If Bush wants it it's a bad thing

Nick

thejollyrodger

This really all depends on when Turkey meets the accession criteria. That could be another 20 years!!

I am against it to be honest. The only reason why I am against it is because of the huge size of the place and how poor it is.. It has a population of 68million and a GDP of $6,700. That makes it a pretty darn big poor country for me. Effefively it is the size of the 10 new accesssion countries and would represent doubling of the E.U. size again. I dont think the E.U can afford it.

It borders Georgia, Armenia, Iran, Iraq, and Syria . So wont Israel be asking (demanding/threatening:rolleyes: ) to join? Where does the E.U stop ??

Even if Turkey is the only country to join, it is going to have the same punch power as France or Germany.. that is too much power to give away.

Maybe Turkey didnt allow the US to use its land or airspace to cuddle up to France and Germany in the recent Gulf War, trying to do its own accession talks some good. Either way, I cant see many EU states being in favour of it. The ottoman empire (1885 borders) only bordered on the edge of Europe and most of it was in the middle east so geographically there is no reason to join.

god damn it , what does the last option mean?

mike65

Enough Atari Jaguar!

As for Turkey better in than out I say. As I have said on at least two previous "should Turkey join?" threads.

Mike.

Beruthiel

Originally posted by agent smith
i see bush is going on how turkey should be a member of the eu, anyone have any view's on it?

ya, it's none of his business and all he does by making comments like that is stir the sh!t. Why does he want them to join so badly?
when they have met the requirements set out by the EU, then and only then should they join.

Sleipnir

Well GWB seems to have the same ideas on humans rights abuses that Turkey has so it's obvious really.

gom

The problem is how do you say NO to Turkey. Turkey is a huge country. It is a member of NATO since 1953. Turkey has and have been wanting in for the last 40 years.
Human Rights Abuses appear to be unimportant and just a smoke screen. Look at the way Romania still behaves issuing pogrems on Yoga Centres???
Since the recent enlargement has taken place standards have sliped on joining the club.

With a population of 70m and growing at a rate of 1.13%(the death rate is sure to drop following the inital years of membership) Turkey would be a very large country in the future and most certainly the largest in the EU in 20 years or so.

I'm not against Turkey on population grounds. I'm against it on geographical and and political grounds.
Turkey has only 5% of its Territoy in Europe. The remaining 95% is in the Middle East. If we say yes to Turkey then surely everyone else has a claim, especially countries such as Georgia, Israel and Armenia which have a heritage closer to that of the rest of the EU. The question of geography is a very important one.
What is the pyschological effect of the EU being European countries & Asian ones(Eurasia rings a bell)?
I want a defined Europe. It is very easy to define borders using geography. You pick up any primary school atlas book and turn to the page of Europe. You will see Iceland in the top left. all the way south to Portugal. all the way east to Greece and north to Finland.
Europe deperatly needs an EU Demos and to form that people need to see the possible entent of the EU's boundries. If Turkey joins then the extent of the boundries can never truely be defined by geography(unless their is no limit).

Another method of deciding if Turkey could join the EU would perhaps be by EU-wide Referendum. We could use the Double-Majority rule to verify the result.

Turkey should not join the EU. It should however be admited into the EFTA(European Free Trade Agreement) and the EEA(European Economic Area). Turkey could join the Schegen Agreement for Free movement of People and Capital, Products and Services. I belive turkey should be very closely linked to the EU but not its Institutions.
This comprismise could perhaps suit other countries that are EU-sceptics such as Britain. They could leave the EU but remain in the EEA/EFTA area and essentially be Economic members and not political ones. This would provent Britain from slowing the pace of integration that the EU needs....

halkar

I don't understand why people goes on about geographical side of the EU. Where does Cyprus fit in than? Who decides who is where? Most of the 10 countries that have joined recently are far from better than Turkey. How does one can think these countries become democracy in 10 years and allowed in EU where as country like Turkey waiting over 40 years? It is EU's double standards and they have as much blame to themselves than Turkey when it comes to their human rights and economic growth. What was EU doing last 40 years? I guess they are not wanted but then again they don't really need EU, do they? EU asked and they did it and they are still doing it. Those 10 countries that joined EU still have a lot to do and their GDPs are far worse than Turkey's if compare by their sizes and standards of living. They have been growing past 2 years while rest of the world was going down.

Turkey is a big economy and I beleive they will play a big role next 50 years in Europe, ME and Asia with or without EU. They have nothing to lose, if EU doesn't want them , they can turn to other aliances like, aliance with Turkic countries in ex-Russia and aliances with ME which can challange EU. EU with Turkey has more to gain than Turkey with EU me thinks.

chewy

i agree with the last two sorta, what other allainces could tukey join, it not already in a large trade alliance with countries around it?

what the ME alliance ?

isn't part of russia in europe too? and part of it in asia ....

if turkey was to join the euopean trade groups what would it be missing out in not joining the eu proper , as the eu is a econmic alliance would it purely be a cosmetic thing, would they not get a certain amount sof grnats help with helath etc... within those econmic groups

gom

Originally posted by chewy
i agree with the last two sorta, what other allainces could tukey join, it not already in a large trade alliance with countries around it?

what the ME alliance ?

isn't part of russia in europe too? and part of it in asia ....

if turkey was to join the euopean trade groups what would it be missing out in not joining the eu proper , as the eu is a econmic alliance would it purely be a cosmetic thing, would they not get a certain amount sof grnats help with helath etc... within those econmic groups

Fundementally I am not opposed to Turkey joining the EU. Its that in reality there is a better solution of the "Everything but Institutions" solution as tabled by Prodi. This would mean that Turkey is in a trading block the EEA. The EU is not a trading block. It is the largest component in the EEA which is made up of the EU, Leigtinstien, Norway, Iceland and maybe soon Switzerland. Basically EEA members must make agreements and laws that allow for free-trade and movement with in the Schegen Agreement area. Turkey would get all the Economic benefits from being a member(including free movement of labour). The EU too would also benefit from the relationship with a larger internal-market to trade in.

There are too many deep objections to Turkey's membership. Some Rational, but most completely irrational and ethnically driven. Because of these objections which on an EU wide scale are high if not 50-50. Then it would not be a good idea to aloow them join when there is such deep reservations.

The Humanitarian and Judical interverence arguements are weak at best in my opinion. Greece was aloud to enter the EU very shortly after the fall its Dictatorship. In many ways the Greek courts were far more corrupt in 1986 than the Turkish are today. The fact that the Greeks were aloud join in 1986 smacks of cultural favoritism if anything.


Ultamitly I think that some day Turkey will be a member of the EU.
I may be arguing against them joining but I think that it is possible for Turkey to join. Just not for a very very long time(maybe 2050). Hopefully once a European Demos and Identify is formed and the EU is transperant and democratically accountable to its citizens then and only then would I even allow for such a contenious country as Turkey to open accession talks...

gom

Can you see a Turk as a European?

If Turkey was holding the rotating presidency of the EU could you identify the Turkish Head of state as a European? It is difficult enough Identifing with the present status quo in the EU.
I want to be able to make such a connection but the truth is I would be lying to myself and forcing an alturistic ideal on me that is against my own feelings.

gom

Link to Eurobaramoter Document on Candiadate Country Attitudes to themself and the EU

On page 33 there is statistical data to show that Turks see themselfs as Primarily Nationally Turkish only and not European.

• 57% saw themselfs as Primarily Tuskish Only
• 32% saw themself as Nationally Turkish and Eurpean

These were the lowest levels of Identification with the EU in any of the candiadate countries and Turkey is the only country that has a majority that views themselfs as Turkish only and not European.

This leads me to think that if in 2001 that was the attitude of the Turkish peoples the EU. How could Turkey be a functioning member of the EU in the interest of the EU when most of its citizens don't even see themselfs as European in anyway???

Moriarty

.. and how many english people identify themselves as primarily english?


I'm undecided about Turkey tbh, I'd have to give it some more thought.

Johnmb

I don't see why, in principle, Turkey can't join. My only reservation is the cost. I don't think the EU can afford it for a while. When the current batch of new members get things in order financially, then thoughts of Turkey joining can be taken seriously. Until then, there will be no benefit for either party, and only major burdens for the current EU countries, and major disappointments for the Turks (not getting the funds they need).

arcadegame2004

Let them in IF and when they fulfill the human-rights reforms, which includes IMPLEMENTING them, rather than passing the legislation and then not enforcing it. Unfortunately too many of the old-guard in Turkey remain in judicial and other important parts of the bureaucracy there, and have resisted such reforms.

thejollyrodger

and do we really want to allow a Israel friendly government into the E.U. ? They have numerous military and political links:(

gurramok

The turks appalling saddam style treatment of the large Kurdish minority (about 12m suppose to be) does not qualify for Turkey to join th EU.
They are about 50yrs behind in human rights for its people and the economy is too volatile for the EU and the country is not even in europe.

arcadegame2004

do we really want to allow a Israel friendly government into the E.U. ? They have numerous military and political links

As does the UK. An Italian company is also the main provider of bulldozers used by the Israeli army to demolish Palestinian homes. The German Government traditionally blocks proposed EU sanctions against Israel and tones down EU criticism of Israel. So if we let in Turkey it certainly wouldn't be the first time we have let in a pro-Israel state.

chewy

that this idea was a good reason to not allow them in held me for a while but tell me which country in europe can throw the first stone? (have info on this must find in pile of rubble beside me)

no country human rights and
ireland has been very slow to take if not on human rights directives of the eu then equality ones (whether you think there good or not )

Exit

I don't know the economics of it all, but I think anything that brings countries closer together can only be seen as a good thing.

chewy

a nice sentiment but why doesn't ireland join the south american coaltion then (or equvalent...?

question you have to ask yourself is, is the EU more culture or economic entity?

i dunno which?

isolde

Originally posted by gom
The problem is how do you say NO to Turkey.

I agree. And it isn't really a question of should Turkey join the EU, rather of when it will happen. Like it or not, Turkey can't be turned away now. It has years and years of economic relations with the EU.. the Ankara Treaty, which led to the customs union between Turkey and the EU, dates back to 1963.. the Turkish application for membership was made in 1987 and then at the EU summit in Helsinki in 1999, the European Council stated that Turkey was an accession candidate. It's almost 20 years now since they applied to join and they've been told they can join as long as they fulfil the Copenhagen criteria and, although they still have a long way to go, they're getting there. Promises have been made and words have been spoken and the EU must stick to their word at this stage because they simply can't go back on it. If we didn't want Turkey to join, then they should have been rejected when they first applied, like Morocco was. Now it's far, far too late to turn around and say "eh sorry.. we don't want you after all".

Turkey should not join the EU. I belive turkey should be very closely linked to the EU but not its Institutions.

(Sorry gom, I'm not trying to pick at your post, just using it to illustrate my own points ).
Angela Merkel, the leader of the main German opposition party, suggested something similar recently. She called it a "privileged partnership". And while I completely understand its merits, I think that it would be unfair at this stage to do something like that, even though it may solve many problems. The bottom line is that Turkey has been told that it can join if it fulfils the necessary criteria.
There are many arguments for and against the accession of Turkey, namely the size and economic situation of the country, it's geographical location, the religion of its people, its borders with Iraq, Syria, etc., the Cyprus issue and of course questions regarding its human rights record. And while there is a strong case against its accession, it can also be strongly argued that it's better to have Turkey in, than out. It is a secular state and, in that sense, it is a model for the Islamic world.


The EU needs to decide whether or not it wants to set borders and, if so, where these lie. With only 3% of Turkey part of the European continent, people could argue forever as to whether or not Turkey belongs to Europe. But Europe is more than that what was before.. more than old battles and prejudices.. our history is naturally hugely important but we need to look forward too.

The Turks have looked West for years and years.. we can't shut them out now, and it would be damaging to do so. The new slogan of the EU is "United in diversity". The accession of Turkey to the EU would certainly ensure that the EU is what it claims to be.

sceptre

Originally posted by chewy
a nice sentiment but why doesn't ireland join the south american coaltion then (or equvalent...?

Because we don't have a land border with Paraguay?

(you do realise that French Guiana is part of the EU? It's even depicted on that monopoly money we're using for the past two years)

question you have to ask yourself is, is the EU more culture or economic entity?

If a choice has to be made between those two (no mention of "political"?), it's primarily an economic entity. That's where it started with the original three Treaties and along with the whole peace and stability thing, it's its reason for existing as an organisation. The economic entity we work on, the cultural entity we get for free in small increments (or big bits for north Americans who make reference to that Yorap place where they surprisingly all speak different languages).

chewy

add political if you want...

then discuss is politics more cultural or econmic...

Agent Smith

Originally posted by sceptre


(you do realise that French Guiana is part of the EU? It's even depicted on that monopoly money we're using for the past two years)

not only is it a part of the eu, afaik it's a provance of france, and explains why france recives eu grants