Freddies penalty v Holland

moby2101

Hi
Anyone take note of Freddies penalty on Saturday evening??
The ball struck the post and then the baclk of Van Der Sar and then over the line.
I remember seeing a penalty like this b4 in the 1982 World cup and remember thawt it was disallowed (I'm 99% sure on this)

I thought that the interretation of a penalty was that once it stopped going forward it was no longer a penalty.

Im curently engaged in a dogfight in the office over this , anyone got any insights!!

K!LL!@N

I don't know exactly what the rule is as it stands now.
But i'd be inclined to allow it.
As long as there's no interference from the player.

Another interesting penalty issue from that match.
Apparently Van Nistelrooy has been credited with a goal for his penalty.
Increasing his goal tally for the tournament.
Now how is that possible?

Killian

Space Coyote

It happened in one of the penalty shootouts in the WC in Mexico '86 I remember. It was Brazil V France in the quarter final. Forget which French lad took this particular peno but it hit the post, came back out and hit the Brazilian goalie Carlos on the head and went in. It counted.

moby2101

Youre right space Coyote,
it was Mexico 86 and the penalty kick counted, I'm still not sure of the ruling though, must do some more research b4 I concede my position and the 20euro bet !!!

Surely Van Nistlhorsface's(!!) penalty doesnt go to his tally, the match finished 0-0.
he didnt score in extra time.

jesus_thats_gre

It does count. Technically its the exact same as the keeper touching it on the way into the goals. The rules dictate that the player is only alowed one touch and this is all he had.

Tusky

I remember some times in the 90's this happening and the goal wasnt given , I always thought once the ball stops going forward the peno is missed.

moby2101

Found this over on F365


"I am astonished (actually I'm not at all, just very disappointed) that the referee, commentators, pundits and journalists don't seem to know the rules of football. Unless the rules about penalty shoot-outs have changed the penalty ends as soon as the ball stops going forwards. Therefore Ljungberg's penalty should not have counted.

I know this made no difference to the final outcome of the match but it could have. It is also quite an important point for the referee to miss. I can accept that a referee will make a mistake during a match when it is a question of judgement but surely they must know the rules. There was no doubt that the ball went back about a yard after hitting the bar before hitting the keeper.

I remember this ruling because I read about a similar thing happening in the 1982 World Cup in a shoot-out between France and Brazil. The ball hit the post then goalkeeper and went in and was allowed but shouldn't have been.

Football365, I look to you or your readers for guidance. Have I missed out on a rule change, am I being petty or has an important error been overlooked?"


I'm still in the dark on this one.....

Mike

PHB

From fifa.com
"
Procedure:

- The player taking the penalty kicks the ball forward

- He does not play the ball a second time until it has touched the other player

- the ball is in play when it is kicked and moves forward

When a penalty kick is taken during the normal course of play, or time has been extended at half-time or full time to allow a penalty kick to be taken or retaken, a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the corssbar:

- the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper"

That last bit means that it must refer to that lunberg situation since there is no other situation that the rule could refer to, except a perfectly vertically moving and ball which just can't happen

redspider

Yes, Ljungberg's effort was a valid goal. Goals like this have always been allowed as far back as I can remember. There were a few cases of it before, I dont recall the incidents clearly. 1986 is very hazy!

As for penalty shootout goals counting as real goals - No, they don't (nor should they). van Nistelrooy should not get a goal.

AFAI can remember, a few tournaments ago the official scores on matches included the goals from the match PLUS total amount of penalties, eg: 7-6 (if 1-1 and ten 6-5 in pens). Thankfully, FIFA reverted this ruling and brought us back to the normal score reporting.

Pigman II

Freddys goal was valid.

Regarding the golden boot Van Nistelrooy won't (or shouldn't) be credited with a goal for his peno in the shootout.

The case most people are trying to compare it to is BRUNO BELLONE'S penalty v Brazil in the 1986 world cup. On that occasion the goal stood too.

//

Hypothetical situation for everyone. If a ball (and this might not even be possible) was blasted directly at a post with so much swerve that it 'banana'd' in an arc across the goal line and went in near the opposite post (with out the goalie touching it), would it be any less of a goal? After all it technically stopped moving in a forward direction after it hit the post.

The Rooster

Phil Neal once scored a peno for Liverpool like that. The keeper dived the wrong way, and the ball hit the post, bounced about 3 yards out, and then spun back into the net before the keeper could reach it.

redspider

Here's a story I will divulge from local soccer in a match I played in many years ago.

A penalty was given wrongly against the team I was playing in. The guy took the penalty, our keeper dived (he was a bit of a clown!) and missed, the ball hit the post, it came out and it him, and just settled close to the line, and not over it.

Our keeper picked himself up, saw the ball, swore out loud and kicked the ball in the net! He had thought the ball was already in the goal!

It was hilarious even for us who had conceded a goal !!

Needless to say we got a new keeper the season after that.

Guy:Incognito

Originally posted by redspider

As for penalty shootout goals counting as real goals - No, they don't (nor should they). van Nistelrooy should not get a goal.

I think goals in penalty shoot outs should be counted for goals, its part of the match after all. IMO theres more pressure on to score in a penalty shoot out.

redspider

No, I dont agree, these goals are not part of the match proper. Penalty shoot-outs were brought in to replace tossing the coin or drawing lots. Its just a way of "randomly" differentiating two teams that have proven to be equal as there is no time for a replay, which can happen in other competitions for example.

I agree that they are really tense situations and difficult to take but there is a lottery factor to them. The better team during the game may not win the penalty shootout which is why some teams play defensively to just get to the shoot-out. It looked as if GR were doing that last night for the first 90 mins.

Also, you dont have to be good to score the penalty. Just ask Dave O'Leary who took his first and only penalty with that famous goal against Romania in WC1990.

I think the consensus is that they are not real goals.

Space Coyote

No way can they be counted as goals in the game. Peno shoot-outs aren't part of the match as mr spider said. Can ye imagine the arguments from ex-pro's if they were counted ?! You'd never hear the end of the bickering and squabling especially from guys who would have been their respective countries top goalscorers of all time had the penos the scored in shootouts been counted.
Does that make sense, meh. :dunno:

PHB

Does anyone else think having a continuing silver goal game with halfs going on indefinately is a better idfea than penalties

At least it would reward fitness and skill rather than random chance

Big Ears

Originally posted by PHB
Does anyone else think having a continuing silver goal game with halfs going on indefinately is a better idfea than penalties

At least it would reward fitness and skill rather than random chance

The problem is after a while the players couldnt keep going , and the match would end as a spectakle , remember the keeper would be fresher (normally) than the other players so it would be very hard to score .

Also goals should not be allowed in peno shoutouts , as a player is being rewarded for his teams mediocrity , if his team had won the game he may not have got the chance to score , but being a penalty taker gives him an automatic chance .

knobbles

Originally posted by PHB
Does anyone else think having a continuing silver goal game with halfs going on indefinately is a better idfea than penalties

At least it would reward fitness and skill rather than random chance

definately not for knock-out stages as the winning team could be shattered for their next match in 3 to 5 days.

but for a final, it's not a bad idea. Tennis matches can go on for hours with no tie-break in the last set.

i heard a commentator saying the silver goal is being scraped after this tournament.
Anyone know what for? The old system of two halves?
Didnt like the Golden Goal rule at all but I thought Silver Goal was the best of the three.