anti-americanism versus anti-captialism

chewy

this is one of the nubs of the arguement... now not evey one on the marches are anti-capitalist, (except perhaps alot of the organisers) but many like me have some serious doubts about capitalism

can someone tell me what an anti-american is, how they operate what they do?
i dunno




edit: changing "what an americanis " as i first had it to "tell me what an anti- american is" hence sands first answer

Sand

Theyre kind of the whipping boys for a variety of distasteful philosophies down through the ages - racisalists and nazis, fascists, islamic fundamentalists, communists, students and other enemies of western civillisation have long despaired of them as being fat, lazy, stupid, gullible, capitalist, racist, cultureless, crass, loud, tactless gung -ho moronic cowboys, juggling nukes. Unfortunately we must be ****ing miles worse because theyre running the world

In short, like the Jews before WW2 in Germany, theyre blamed for everything wrong with the world. And like the Jews theyre heavily identifed with capitalism.

BlitzKrieg

Could be drawn from niavity and media.

Niave because of the belief of a fair world for everyone, yet you have one country which seems almost all the power = America. So of course they start asking for America to tip its hat a bit and let other states get up on equal footing, America say they dont need to cause america will be a big brother and stick up for them. But some states start behaving the way america doesnt want them to and gives a little slap to perserve the western balance. Those who felt the world was unfair feel even more horrified and blame america for it because its keeping things in its favour. hence anti-american.


Media: Scandals sell (look at hollywood) so of course big political ones sell even more, so america has had a hard time from western media (excluding fox news of course) and this encourages a more ignorant form of anti-americanism born of hour long JFK specials etc etc. Also those from the third world are not idiots and can read and learn about how America has large piles of spare goods (EU too) but wont share it because of how our economic system works...

also most of our media is american orienated, people tend to get annoyed at the nation the blows its horn too much (note: England in football) i think Independence day made more anti-americans then any other main stream film in the last 10 years



You can get educated Anti-Americanism which tends to be more focused (specific governing faults etc) and much better argued. Others (such as one of my politics lecturer) are as you put it anti-capatilists.



Personnally i agree partial with Sand but i cant help at the same time thinking back to the 1800's with the balance of power in europe (all european states were powerful, but none of them were powerful enough to be a superpower) it all bolloxed up with the formation of the alliances. Dunno why i think that. But i feel its one of the key pieces that is missing when it comes to America.




and on a lighter note, some people just cant figure out how (as sand put it) a people who are the butt of every joke end up having the most power. of course you get a tad irrated.

but this is just partial of it...and its only my humble view.

mike65

anti-Americanism is irrational while anti-capitalism is daft but has a rationale behind it. This will be the shortest reply.

Mike.

chewy

"people tend to get annoyed at the nation the blows its horn too much (note: England in football)"

yeah i think this blowing your own horn thing is very much wher alot of the low level distaste comes from re america but its equally applyable to england re football so how is it specificaly anti-american rather anti-boasting?

Magnolia_Fan

England not just in Football...as Tommy Tiernan said We like to see England get beat in Rugby, Tennis, Snooker and war! lol

BlitzKrieg

yeah i think this blowing your own horn thing is very much wher alot of the low level distaste comes from re america but its equally applyable to england re football so how is it specificaly anti-american rather anti-boasting?

to put it simply because the english are better at being smug.


note:

think of the most pro-british film you've seen.

then think of the most pro-american film.


The English when it comes to england tend to present their pride very well (the weather is crap the food is simple and the women dont exist BUT....) is the sort of line you'd get from an english bloke or from english media (note: Faulty Towers, Monty Python, Shaun of the Dead, Full Monty and so on.)


But if you have an American saying it, it tends to be portrayed in the media with a tear in the eye, the waving of the american flag etc. (Pearl Harbour, Independance day, Ruskies etc etc)


I brought up football because that is the only time i can think of that England cannot be charming about being arrogent, they are very blunt and annoying about it (1968 [whatever year it was] over and over and over ) And their distaste when they dont get their way is...well more obvious.

I cant think of any other country which has exspressed its own national pride so pungently melodramticly over such a wide surface. It can be because of the american control of the media but that doesnt stop the lack of sense when they are foriegners. (And DONT SAY I'm STEREOTYPING, this is from personal experiances and this is'nt american bashing either.)

I've met Americans in England, Ireland, France, Australia and Kosovo and in all cases except Ireland i've seen the same ignorance to the world being different outside America. The ones i have met acted as if all the cultural niches etc were put on for their entertainment and of course it couldnt beat anything *back home* In Ireland this doesnt happen because to the majority i've met...ireland IS *back home* (give or take a couple generations and a scottish terrier) and that they have moved onto better things.


So it cant be anti-boasting because from personal experiances most other nations shut up when they are in another nation.

BlitzKrieg

I suggest Michael Moore move to France. Over there, Moore's overall film work would be better appreciated by all the anti-American Euro-socialists that populate the old world.

saw this in a review of ferienhight 9/11 and i think it adds to the view Americans have of Europe. I think i noted the important word which can explain some of the anger towards america from Europe specificly.

BUMP!

I think there is a lot of fear out there aswell though. The most powerful nation in the world (So they persist in telling us ) are ruled by a bumbling, arrogant, self serving man who many people beieve isn't that bright???? This cannot be safe!!

sovtek

Usually the "anti-American" tag gets pulled out when someone can't argue their apologists stance of dangerous American foreign policy.
It's usually followed by "he's just a self hating Jew" somewhere in the argument, but maybe that's just my experience.

chewy

some interesting dicussion re boasting there... but it only describes our _reaction_ to members of another coutnry boasting too much, or without restraint... it doesn't really cover unwarrented anti-americanism... of course all the people shouting anti-americanims on these board have gone quiet ...



come on all lets get o'reilly bush berite on to the boards man we'll sort it out

sceptre

Why did you want to discuss "anti-americanism" versus "anti-capitalism" anyway chewy? Do you think you can't be "anti-Bush" without being "anti-American" or did I just miss the point?

chewy

no i was coming from the other side of it..... cos you hear so much about active people like myself being anti-american, on tv on the boards etc... but i was wondering if some of the people shouting that could explain what it was, cos i just thoguht they were mixing it up with anti-capitalist

sceptre

Ah thanks, I was just wondering. (and I missed the point:))

I assume that, say, the anti-Bush (but not anti-capitalist/globalisation/bad globalisation that Chomsky doesn't like) crowd are being tarred with an anti-American brush as actual anti-Americanism would be pretty darn difficult to justify. Hence, tar your enemy with an unjustifiable tag and you're eroding the position he actually has in the eyes of the public. And given that the whole point is really getting the public on board, it's a useful (albeit crude) weapon to use. It's one step away from calling someone a racist and people usually don't have much time for racism, especially when it's other people at it. Hence they're not going to listen to the actual point of view the guy has. If it works.

arcadegame2004

Given that they are not anti-American, I look forward to seeing huge protests against human-rights violations in China the next time a Chinese leader visits (didn't happen when PM Wen Jiabao visited a few months ago) and Vladimir Putin when he visits in relation to war-crimes in Chechnya and now in Ingushetia.

Cork

Originally posted by chewy
this is one of the nubs of the arguement... now not evey one on the marches are anti-capitalist, (except perhaps alot of the organisers) but many like me have some serious doubts about capitalism

As a recipiant of so much US FDI - the Irish are open to capitalisim.

The massive investment by Intel and others show how important US FDI is to us.

Even in the bleak 1950s - this country was kept going from remittances.

The Irish are show little anti-americanism or anti-captialism.



And rightly so.

the_syco

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
In Ireland this doesnt happen because to the majority i've met...ireland IS *back home* (give or take a couple generations and a scottish terrier) and that they have moved onto better things.

Half the english that I've met so far have a tendcy to refer to England as "the mainland", and have the attitude that Ireland is a "little island".
The Americans I've met have said X wouldn't cost as much back home, but they were talking about comuter parts, thus were correct.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Given that they are not anti-American, I look forward to seeing huge protests against human-rights violations in China the next time a Chinese leader visits (didn't happen when PM Wen Jiabao visited a few months ago) and Vladimir Putin when he visits in relation to war-crimes in Chechnya and now in Ingushetia.

Sorry to say, but its just anti-American. Remember that noone gave out when the sovits went thru Shannon to cuba, among other places...

Cork

Originally posted by the_syco

Sorry to say, but its just anti-American. Remember that noone gave out when the sovits went thru Shannon to cuba, among other places...

Don't feel sorry to say it - it is true.

There has been no change to the use of Shannon or to Irish neutrality.

But where were the these protests when the soviets were using Shannon?

chewy

well we had that arguement a while back no point repeating it

i wonder that the protests that happen daily outside the dail on an endless amount of issues are anti-irish?


i think the main difference is what ever acts the russians are carrying out etc in chechnya they're proclaiming to be doing as symbol of democracy...

arcadegame2004

i think the main difference is what ever acts the russians are carrying out etc in chechnya they're proclaiming to be doing as symbol of democracy...

Actually the US also uses that line.

chewy

my lazt typing


i think the main difference is what ever acts the russians are carrying out etc in chechnya they're (as in the usa) proclaiming to be doing as symbol of democracy...